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Nintendo: Wii U Re-Unveil At E3 2012, Working On Strong Launch, No Pokemon?

blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
iamshadowlark said:
Wait, are you comparing the BW requirements of PC software to one of a console. Specifically a pc with a MB that has 3 gpus and an infinite amount of other none essential components. Seriously?
Click to expand...
Seriously. Now, enlighten me where the 'PC software' known as Samaritan tech demo actually wastes so much BW such that it should not be taken intro consideration in the context of consoles.

Also at the bolded, thats exactly why companies like sony and epic have teams assigned to this sort of task.
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Judging by this thread, I thought that job was left to kids with barely a college degree. My bad.

And who the hell said something about flipping a switch lol?
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Oh I see. Apparently those 'To get Samaritan on the much lesser GPUs you just have to include optimisations, silly (which low and behold do not touch render targets, textures or other BW contributers)!' on this page actually implied some non-trivial programming effort. How stupid of me to miss this fact. Please accept my apologies then, you absolutely win this debate.

fake edit:
You are right in that what you described happens most of the time, but thats not optimization nor is it due to hardware constraints, more like pressure and deadlines from the higher ups. The very nature if programming teaches us that something can always be improved on.
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Oh dear.
 
A

abstract alien

Member
The stylus is needed since you don't have to use the buttons. You don't even have to use the damn tv. Someone could make a Canvas Curse style game on the U-shop, for example. They already showed games only using the tablet in the unveiling video.
 
N

Nora Kisaragi

Banned
Hmm. Maybe i'll support nintendo and buy the Wii U if Nintendo of America supports localizing other japanese nintendo products like Pandora's Tower, Xenoblade, and the Last Story. Seriously, this has diminished my trust in NoA completely. The rocky 3ds launch only adds to that.
 
m.i.s.

m.i.s.

Banned
Heavy said:
The thing looks like a Fisher-Price toy compared to the iPad or really any other tablet. They shouldn't be put in the same sentence. It looks like a next-gen Etch-a-Sketch. I'm hoping they spend this time redesigning the look of the controller so we get a 'sexier' looking setup come E3 2012. The console itself looks good, imo, it's just the controller. It's also lacking basic features that are standard in even mid-range tablets these days. Nintendo has a long ways to go but E3 2012 is like 7 months away so there's time.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. I also think the console looks fine as it is.

This is similar to what I would like to see (with elongated sides to accommodate slider pads, d-pad and face buttons). ie make the bezel as small as possible. Not that I'm sold on this touch screen nonsense on consoles either way.

amazon-kindle-fire1.jpg
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Thunder Monkey said:
Just so no one takes what I'm saying as fact.

I am more centered on visual aspects of game design than programming. Like I said I'll take what he's saying as truth. But... I don't see how something built for 1200 spu's can run as is on a 800 spu part. Without a loss of quality that is.
Click to expand...

you don't think removing a couple of levels of OS (windows, GPU drivers etc) and optimising for a known console configuration and its specific capabilities can't overcome that gap? I think it should be able to.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
mrklaw said:
you don't think removing a couple of levels of OS (windows, GPU drivers etc) and optimising for a known console configuration and its specific capabilities can't overcome that gap? I think it should be able to.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think any of them will have the hardware to do what Epic wants.

edit: Sony might, but that is entirely dependent on if they produce a 2013 GPU at 22nm.
 
M

Medalion

Banned
The Wii-U tablet is not really a tablet because it's a short-range inter-dependant controller to the actual console, so it is allowed to look less than other so-called tablets out there
 
S

StevieP

Banned
mrklaw said:
you don't think removing a couple of levels of OS (windows, GPU drivers etc) and optimising for a known console configuration and its specific capabilities can't overcome that gap? I think it should be able to.
Click to expand...

No. We're talking something that's running on the equivalent of 4500 SPUs on a part that will almost assuredly be <1000. Unless you're of the "physics be damned" type.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
StevieP said:
No. We're talking something that's running on the equivalent of 4500 SPUs on a part that will almost assuredly be <1000. Unless you're of the "physics be damned" type.
Click to expand...
So I was being damned conservative when I said 1200 SPUs as the baseline for Samaritan.
 
J

JGS

Banned
Medalion said:
The Wii-U tablet is not really a tablet because it's a short-range inter-dependant controller to the actual console, so it is allowed to look less than other so-called tablets out there
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I was thinking about this and it would seem that it should be much cheaper to produce as well than I was orginally thinking.
 
B

Boney

Banned
Nuclear Muffin said:
BTW, this chart might blow your mind.

06l.jpg


The largest demographic for Pokemon is now males aged 19-24 (in Japan at least)
Click to expand...
This chart was for the first 2 weeks of b&w, or even one week can't remember. Probably gradually morphed to look more like HGSS
 
S

Saint Gregory

Member
Has this Samaritan on consoles debate also factored in that most if not all high end PCs capable of running graphics at that level would most likely be doing that with two GPUs? Are we expecting next gen consoles to have the equivalent of two late 2013-14 GPUs now?
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
Saint Gregory said:
Has this Samaritan on consoles debate also factored in that most if not all high end PCs capable of running graphics at that level would most likely be doing that with two GPUs? Are we expecting next gen consoles to have the equivalent of two late 2013-14 GPUs now?
Click to expand...
Some may be.

I remain utterly pessimistic.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
StevieP said:
No. We're talking something that's running on the equivalent of 4500 SPUs on a part that will almost assuredly be <1000. Unless you're of the "physics be damned" type.
Click to expand...

oh, then throw in 'smoke and mirrors'. You could probably achieve something that looks incredibly close to samaritan but not using the same methods - e.g. bokeh DoF using alternative methods to the one Epic uses - its in their interest to show high-end effects to push their engine.

So while technically perhaps you're right that we won't see an exact replication of that demo, I'm still certain we'll see plenty of games that exceed the graphical impact of the demo.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
mrklaw said:
oh, then throw in 'smoke and mirrors'. You could probably achieve something that looks incredibly close to samaritan but not using the same methods - e.g. bokeh DoF using alternative methods to the one Epic uses - its in their interest to show high-end effects to push their engine.

So while technically perhaps you're right that we won't see an exact replication of that demo, I'm still certain we'll see plenty of games that exceed the graphical impact of the demo.
Click to expand...
Which was my stance to begin with.

Close visually, far away technically.
 
blu

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Thunder Monkey said:
I honestly don't think any of them will have the hardware to do what Epic wants.

edit: Sony might, but that is entirely dependent on if they produce a 2013 GPU at 22nm.
Click to expand...
Right. Best sony might deliver would be some Kepler (assuming they stayed with NV) on a 22-28nm.
 
S

Saint Gregory

Member
Thunder Monkey said:
Some may be.

I remain utterly pessimistic.
Click to expand...
I've actually seen specs for PCI-e 3.0 motherboards calling for 4 16x-8x slots and I almost accidentally bought one last week that had 3. Maybe I'm being naive but I have a feeling that Nvidia/AMD are going to focus more on energy efficiency than raw power in their next die shrinks.
 
S

StevieP

Banned
mrklaw said:
oh, then throw in 'smoke and mirrors'. You could probably achieve something that looks incredibly close to samaritan but not using the same methods - e.g. bokeh DoF using alternative methods to the one Epic uses - its in their interest to show high-end effects to push their engine.

So while technically perhaps you're right that we won't see an exact replication of that demo, I'm still certain we'll see plenty of games that exceed the graphical impact of the demo.
Click to expand...

Exceed? No, Samaritan wasn't even a game. It was a scripted cutscene, which also makes a large difference.

Maybe I'm being naive but I have a feeling that Nvidia/AMD are going to focus more on energy efficiency than raw power in their next die shrinks.
Click to expand...

They can't even seem to get their die shrinks right.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
So I was being damned conservative when I said 1200 SPUs as the baseline for Samaritan.
Click to expand...
If Epic can really get it running on one GTX 580, 1600-2000 SPs (VLIW4/GCN) wouls be enough, actually.

Though, as pointed out a few days ago, the expense of making a game like Samaritan will probably prevent it anyway; at least for the first 3-4 years of the generation.
 
Z

Zoramon089

Banned
Boney said:
This chart was for the first 2 weeks of b&w, or even one week can't remember. Probably gradually morphed to look more like HGSS
Click to expand...
The HGSS chart still has most owners in the teens and higher range
 
Ü

Übermatik

Member
Foliorum Viridum said:
Their re-unveil will have to be good because fucking hell was their original reveal an absolute mess.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was a mess - it was less than people expected, is all.
Nintendo were forced to show examples, announce some games and give a few details because of the leaks beforehand.
They were rushed, hence the difference in the demos. What they really wanted to do was show off the new controller, say a few things and move on...
 
I

iamshadowlark

Banned
blu said:
Seriously. Now, enlighten me where the 'PC software' known as Samaritan tech demo actually wastes so much BW such that it should not be taken intro consideration in the context of consoles.
Click to expand...


Its not the game that is specifically wasting BW. Its the fact that the game has to fight with 15 or 20 other components on top of three full power gpus and a beefy cpu. In no way does that compare to a closed box next-gen console with proper next gen buses. There is a fraction of the traffic being sucked from the game.

blu said:
Judging by this thread, I thought that job was left to kids with barely a college degree. My bad.
Click to expand...
Yeah I don't know what the hell this is even supposed to mean so imma just skip.
blu said:
Oh I see. Apparently those 'To get Samaritan on the much lesser GPUs you just have to include optimisations, silly (which low and behold do not touch render targets, textures or other BW contributers)!' on this page actually implied some non-trivial programming effort. How stupid of me to miss this fact. Please accept my apologies then, you absolutely win this debate.
Click to expand...
Ignoring the douchiness of this part, one thought you seem to be stuck on is the conception that somehow Samaritan requires 3 580s ,when epic has already said that that just used SLI to save time and get a demo to show.That way they didn't have to "cheat", they just brute forced. It could be run on a single gpu.

If you believe that a game, with the fidelity of Samaritan , requires "4500" spus at any given instance and you've been working in the industry for 9 years, I dont know what to tell you. IIRC the most intense gpu function in the demo was the image based reflections, which honestly could be toned down as they have little practical use, was fully dynamic and in real time. Any competent developer can tell you that only certain objects need cpu/gpu cycles spent on dynamic reflections and "free" static reflections could've been used without any visible degradation. And thats just the tip of the iceberg as far as real optimizations go. Do you think most scenes need to have 145 lights at any given time? Do you think you need to write that extreme amount of data everytime to the FB? Do you think they needed to shade the whole scene when only certain parts are visble? Remember Epic made a pretty tech demo, not a game.
 
N

nckillthegrimace

Member
Ubermatik said:
I don't think it was a mess - it was less than people expected, is all.
Nintendo were forced to show examples, announce some games and give a few details because of the leaks beforehand.
They were rushed, hence the difference in the demos. What they really wanted to do was show off the new controller, say a few things and move on...
Click to expand...

I can't agree with this. Their messaging was extremely unclear. They never specifically said that the Wii U was a new console. I only connected the dots after they talked about how it was HD, but keep in mind that this was after a sizzle reel that just showed the controller. It wasn't that much of a stretch to believe that it was just a new Wii controller.

I don't agree with your assertion that they only wanted to show off the controller and move on, either. The majority of their conference was focused on the Wii U. Even having their hand forced as to what the system was doesn't really necessitate anything beyond an acknowledgment of its existence. If they hadn't wanted to focus on it, then they wouldn't have. They would have focused on the Wii and 3DS, systems that were actually out and struggling. Instead, it was the Wii U. Clearly, that was the focus, but I'm sure they expected people to be just blown away like they were with the 3DS last year. People just came away confused and/or unimpressed, so it's probably a good idea that they're "re-revealing" the system with actual software.
 
W

walking fiend

Member
seeing that demographic chart for Pokemon, I guess I am a bit old now for starting with the series :D

though, I wonder what's the demographic of Shonen Jump readers, lol
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
Ubermatik said:
Nintendo were forced to show examples, announce some games and give a few details because of the leaks beforehand.
Click to expand...
Well, note that they had some games in very advanced, polished forms that they could have shown, but they chose not to. I've read from a couple third-party developers that they were told to prepare demos, but at the last minute Nintendo decided for some reason not to show the real game demos.
 
W

wsippel

Banned
Dreamwriter said:
Well, note that they had some games in very advanced, polished forms that they could have shown, but they chose not to. I've read from a couple third-party developers that they were told to prepare demos, but at the last minute Nintendo decided for some reason not to show the real game demos.
Click to expand...
The only logical reason I could think of would be that the games looked basically identical to their PS360 counterparts (and they did at that point, according to Vigil), and Nintendo didn't want people to think Wii U would only be as powerful as those systems. Which still happened, but that's not really Nintendo's fault.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
you know, one positive, the longer they delay showing off the Wii U the more likely they are making sure they have something that, for example, takes advantage of multiple tablets. I think that was EASILY one of the biggest concerns coming off of the E3 showing and Nintendo at the time seemed iffy on if they were going to do it. I suspect given the feedback and given the desire to please consumers they will make it happen.
 
I

iamshadowlark

Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
I honestly don't think any of them will have the hardware to do what Epic wants.

edit: Sony might, but that is entirely dependent on if they produce a 2013 GPU at 22nm.
Click to expand...
Considering that Epic is giddily announcing at every chance that Sony/MS are consulting them to see what would be needed for that level of visuals in the next-gen, I'd say its a great chance actually. Especially considering Epics relationship with MS.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
iamshadowlark said:
Considering that Epic is giddily announcing at every chance that Sony/MS are consulting them to see what would be needed for that level of visuals in the next-gen, I'd say its a great chance actually. Especially considering Epics relationship with MS.
Click to expand...
The things they keep saying lead me to believe they are having a lot of trouble getting either to listen.

Neither wanting to be anywhere near as expensive as their last consoles because of the extremely slow uptake.
 
I

iamshadowlark

Banned
Thunder Monkey said:
The things they keep saying lead me to believe they are having a lot of trouble getting either to listen.

Neither wanting to be anywhere near as expensive as their last consoles because of the extremely slow uptake.
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Where? Link? The most recent articles on the subject I've read, point to the opposite.
 
6

60_gig_PS3

Banned
the biggest problem with Samaritan level gfx is that it will take about 9 years to make a whole game with that level of detail (see Last Guardian).

when the game is finally done you can be sure the publisher will want to port it to every platform under the sun (including WiiU)
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
iamshadowlark said:
Where? Link? The most recent articles on the subject I've read, point to the opposite.
Click to expand...
I take them saying "Fans should expect Samaritan, and if PS4 and 720 don't hit that level they won't succeed." coupled with Dice statement of "Look at modern PC's to get an idea." to mean "They aren't pushing too hard this time."
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
60_gig_PS3 said:
the biggest problem with Samaritan level gfx is that it will take about 9 years to make a whole game with that level of detail (see Last Guardian).

when the game is finally done you can be sure the publisher will want to port it to every platform under the sun (including WiiU)
Click to expand...
Wii U won't last that long. GAF says it'll flop worse than the GameCube, Virtual Boy, N-Gage, XBox JP, XBox 360 JP, 3DS, Game Gear, and whatever else you can think of combined! All because Nintendo confirmed than it's an overclocked 360. :(

In all seriousness. it wouldn't take 9 years to make; it'll just be a 3-hour long game with day -1 paid DLC required for every 30 minutes gameplay beyond the opening cutscene.
 
D

DefectiveReject

Banned
nckillthegrimace said:
I can't agree with this. Their messaging was extremely unclear. They never specifically said that the Wii U was a new console. I only connected the dots after they talked about how it was HD, but keep in mind that this was after a sizzle reel that just showed the controller. It wasn't that much of a stretch to believe that it was just a new Wii controller.

I don't agree with your assertion that they only wanted to show off the controller and move on, either. The majority of their conference was focused on the Wii U. Even having their hand forced as to what the system was doesn't really necessitate anything beyond an acknowledgment of its existence. If they hadn't wanted to focus on it, then they wouldn't have. They would have focused on the Wii and 3DS, systems that were actually out and struggling. Instead, it was the Wii U. Clearly, that was the focus, but I'm sure they expected people to be just blown away like they were with the 3DS last year. People just came away confused and/or unimpressed, so it's probably a good idea that they're "re-revealing" the system with actual software.
Click to expand...
Errrrr. They did say it was a new console.


I counted 3 references to "new system" in the 1st minute of them talking about it.
And no ... 3ds got the bulk of their presser
 
J

JoshuaJSlone

Member
nckillthegrimace said:
I can't agree with this. Their messaging was extremely unclear. They never specifically said that the Wii U was a new console. I only connected the dots after they talked about how it was HD, but keep in mind that this was after a sizzle reel that just showed the controller. It wasn't that much of a stretch to believe that it was just a new Wii controller.
Click to expand...
I can see there being confusion if one watched the show with no context--but I'd have to think most people watching Nintendo's E3 presentation would know they'd said they'd be showing the next big thing there, and that there were a flurry of rumors about the next system's controller having a touch screen on it.
 
T

Thunder Monkey

Banned
JoshuaJSlone said:
I can see there being confusion if one watched the show with no context--but I'd have to think most people watching Nintendo's E3 presentation would know they'd said they'd be showing the next big thing there, and that there were a flurry of rumors about the next system's controller having a touch screen on it.
Click to expand...
Which made me think "Good God are they idiots?!"
 
M

Medalion

Banned
I really would love to settle once and for all how they intend to address the fact that Wii-U has this fancy tablet and can we get a 2nd tablet controller to work with it, and everybody else who plays locally is restricted to Wii-motes?
 
S

StevieP

Banned
Ignoring the douchiness of this part, one thought you seem to be stuck on is the conception that somehow Samaritan requires 3 580s ,when epic has already said that that just used SLI to save time and get a demo to show.That way they didn't have to "cheat", they just brute forced. It could be run on a single gpu.
Click to expand...

Even if by some miracle, you get "that" (aka toned down) running on a single 580 level of juice, that's still 150-200 watts more of GPU juice than your typical console can afford in its typical thermal envelope. Talk die shrinks all you want, MS and Sony are taping their components now. They can't rely on a 2013 chip for a 2013 release date. When that happens, you have things like the PS3 launch.

iamshadowlark said:
Its not the game that is specifically wasting BW. Its the fact that the game has to fight with 15 or 20 other components on top of three full power gpus and a beefy cpu. In no way does that compare to a closed box next-gen console with proper next gen buses. There is a fraction of the traffic being sucked from the game.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, next gen buses. How could I be so stupid? It isn't nanobots, it's next gen buses that will take us to the next level.
 
B

BurntPork

Banned
nckillthegrimace said:
I can't agree with this. Their messaging was extremely unclear. They never specifically said that the Wii U was a new console. I only connected the dots after they talked about how it was HD, but keep in mind that this was after a sizzle reel that just showed the controller. It wasn't that much of a stretch to believe that it was just a new Wii controller.

I don't agree with your assertion that they only wanted to show off the controller and move on, either. The majority of their conference was focused on the Wii U. Even having their hand forced as to what the system was doesn't really necessitate anything beyond an acknowledgment of its existence. If they hadn't wanted to focus on it, then they wouldn't have. They would have focused on the Wii and 3DS, systems that were actually out and struggling. Instead, it was the Wii U. Clearly, that was the focus, but I'm sure they expected people to be just blown away like they were with the 3DS last year. People just came away confused and/or unimpressed, so it's probably a good idea that they're "re-revealing" the system with actual software.
Click to expand...
zelda-gif-1.gif


Yep, totally a Wii game.

And you knew before the conference that they were going to introduce a console with a controller screen. Either you're lying now or you were playing dumb then. You're free to say that they weren't clear enough, but you don't have to act like you didn't know what was going on. I felt that they weren't clear as well, but I knew from the start that they were introducing a new console, the controller fit the description, (I saw the console in the vid, but i won't count that because I was looking for it,) and then the Zelda demo removed any doubt. You don't need to be confused to find something confusing.

Sorry if I was harsh, but this whole thing is more stupid than the "They look like 360 launch games at best!" argument. If you feel that the only way you can justify an argument is by lying, then you don't really have one.
 
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