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StoppedInTracks · Dec 9, 2011

Jeff dude nothing personal but you are like 2011 version of 2001 Lazy 8s. Total lunatic.

jeff_rigby · Dec 9, 2011

StoppedInTracks said:
Jeff dude nothing personal but you are like 2011 version of 2001 Lazy 8s. Total lunatic.

Hmmmm..... So providing a link to a company that is supporting HTML/Web in game that uses webcore and mentions the PS3 among other platforms known to be using webkit/HTML5 is Lunacy?

We know parts of the webkit core are in the PS3 and being used for IPTV, apparently others are developing Software tools to be used by Game developers to make supporting a HTML UI and Web access easier in game.

API support is:
C++
C
.NET and C# (Mono is supported)

This is not a new Browser as the Game developer is responsible for front end support. When the PS3 GTKwebkit browser is released for the PS3 application side it will be built with the GTK toolkit, game side eliminating as much overhead as possible has the developer calling the core and supporting it (with this application) from the C API themselves not the webkit GTK+ APIs.

If Sony does a good job supporting webkit gameside on the PS3, the above might not be needed. In any case it's only supporting iOS, Windows and Linux at this time. I imagine the job listing is to expand support to other game platforms. (Have experience developing for PS3, Xbox360, iOS, and ARM platforms (Vita, Android - PS Suite, WP7).

We are working on an additional assembly for the next version of AwesomiumSharp (renamed to Awesomium.NET), namely: Awesomium.Mono.Gtk. This will contain utilities and a Gtk WebControl widget to be used with Mono projects using Gtk.

Hanmik · Dec 9, 2011

brunoa76 · Dec 9, 2011

I have a feeling Jeff would be sad if* they release a new browser

*hem sorry Jeff, I meant "when" of course !!!

jeff_rigby · Dec 9, 2011

Google nabs Square Enix and other game developers to do native client Chrome games

http://venturebeat.com/2011/12/08/google-nabs-square-enix-and-other-game-developers-to-do-native-chrome-games/ said:
Google announced today that its three-year effort to create a muscular browser technology that can run heavy duty apps such as console-like games is now ready for prime time.

Google has provided the platform to allow games to run in the Chrome browser and make use of the computers 3D graphics hardware. That makes it possible to run games with high-end console-like graphics in a web browser.

A group of game developers, including Square Enix, Unity Technologies, and Bungie, appeared at Google Thursday night to promote the use of the in-browser Native Client technology, which could result in a rich, Chrome-based gaming platform.

Native Client (abbreviated as NaCl for short, or the atomic name for table salt) was first launched for Chrome in August. An open-source project, Native Client allows native code bases to be run inside Chrome, Google's proprietary browser. Since the original Chrome port, Google has ported a full-screen API, mouse lock, and even OpenGL ES 2.0 3D graphics to the browser.

Among the many possibilities this brings to Chrome is easier to render 2D and 3D graphics, meaning Chrome could become a rich gaming platform that works on computers of every kind. While Chrome will be able to store the code for the game inside the browser, users will still have to fork over money for the necessary hardware to run it.

Since the technology is open source, Google and the developer community have already ported the Unity and Moai game engines, programming language environments Mono and Lua, audio middleware such as fmod and Wwise, as well as the Bullet physics engine, Google said.

Square Enix’s Mini Ninjas, a popular 2009 action-adventure game, is coming to the Chrome Web Store, the publisher announced yesterday. It will be the first game to utilize the Native Client SDK beta that Google released at Google I/O in May of this year as an open-source technology for running native compiled code in the browser. Chief executive officer of Square Enix Holdings, Yoichi Wada, says Native Client “enables the same consumer experience in the browser as in a native application”.

The game will require Chrome 17 Beta which will be available in the coming weeks (support for native code execution first appeared in Chrome 14). Mini Ninjas will be entering an open beta in December. The blurb promises console-quality gaming in the browser

Google took 3 years to develop this 2008 to present. A version of Chrome able to play native language games is to be released later this month. Sony's Game patent published earlier this year indicated that they also were interested in WebGL games. If Google is only now able to do this then Sony should not be considered Late to the party.

Just as with PS Suite, Open Source native language cross platform libraries are ported to all platforms - "already ported the Unity and Moai game engines, programming language environments Mono and Lua, audio middleware such as fmod and Wwise, as well as the Bullet physics engine" and are called/used inside the browser to support "Console quality" games. It's a combination of WebGL and native language support. Since the native language libraries are the same on every platform the game is cross platform. Mono requires Cairo and Glib as does webkit in the PS3 and Vita.

Interesting isn't it....Home has been evolving recently, since the PS3 Cairo disclosure, to support the same or similar libraries that Google is using to support Chrome games. What game engine and physics engine (the rest of the native language libraries would be the same) is Sony using for PS Suite and Home? Are there to be two "Game Browser standards" Google and Sony or are they the same??

See the similarity in open source libraries. Cairo is used in ALL. Remember one of my first posts in NeoGAF; "Cairo is the big deal guys".

Libraries used:

PS3 Home
Lua with Cairo bindings (Could convert to Mono for scripting like Second Life...much faster)
CairoGL
Gstreamer
Freetype Fonts
Glib
webkit core? haven't seen any proof but it's probably coming
Game Engine (unknown) assumed to be OpenGL or PSGL
Physics engine (unknown)

Lua with Cairo bindings as of Home Client 1.4
As of Client 1.4 supports the Gstreamer DASH player and possibly Webkit core
Client 1.5 introduces a new Game engine (unknown possibly Phyre) and Physics engine (unknown rumored to be Havoc) The unknowns beg the question, what if Sony is using the same choices made by Google Chrome NaCL???

GTK/POSIX webkit (coming to the PS3 may require webkit2?)
webkit core
GTK modified to POSIX theme
CairoGL
Pango layout engine with Freetype fonts
Gstreamer 1.0 with Cairo bindings (Audio and Video)
Glib

PS Suite on Android platforms enabled by Android NDK
Webkit core (webkit2)
Mono (C & C++ compiled to C# then Mono bytecode)
GTK modified to Posix theme? UI Toolkit coming with PS Suite
CairoGL
Pango with Freetype fonts
Gstreamer 1.0 with Cairo bindings (Audio and Video)
Glib
Game engine (unknown) OpenGL
Physics engine (unknown)

Google Chrome NaCl Game NaCl in a Chrome Browser Sandbox = WebGL + Native Client Libraries
webkit core (webkit2)
Mono
CairoGL
Freetype Fonts
Glib
Zlib (compression utility)
Fmod Wwise (Audio)
Game engine (Unity and Moai) OpenGL
Physics Engine (Bullet)
Lua with Cairo Bindings
Native code compilers from many langagues including C, C++, and C# (may be part of the Mono package C & C++ compiled to C# then Mono bytecode)
NaCL Overview

Vita Speculation noted
webkit
CairoGL (assumed as webkit support on Posix platforms is usually Cairo)
Freetype with pango layout ?
Glib
Gstreamer 1.0 (assumed as Sony will want the same AV library and Mono uses Gstreamer and Cario APIs Sony:" anything written for Vita with Android in mind is PS Suite compatible".)
Mono (unknown, assume from above it's in the Vita)
GTK custom build POSIX theme? (assumption is the same as above needed for Mono, applications and the browser)
Zlib (assumed)

PS3 XMB Supported Speculation (androvsky disagrees but the Charles Ying post seems to support)
Cairo (Since 2009 firmware 3.0 Pixman part used only in the US until the Cairo disclosure in March 2011)
Gstreamer (since 2009 firmware 3.0)
Glib
Freetype Font
webkit Javascript engine (since firmware 3.5 Oct. 2010 requires Cairo and Gstreamer) Not yet used for XMB but in PS3

*****************************************

These last few posts should give support to multiple projects started in 2008 are being completed and ready for implementation NOW!!!!

jeff_rigby · Dec 12, 2011

Warning ~~Wild~~ speculation: http://blogs.igalia.com/carlosgc/2011/11/04/webkit2-gtk-minibrowser-ported-to-gtk-api/ & reports that Vita is to have a webkit 1.7 browser.

http://blogs.igalia.com/carlosgc/2011/12/16/preliminary-webkit2-gtk-api-documentation/ said:
Preliminary WebKit2 GTK+ API documentation
December 16th, 2011Carlos Garcia CamposLeave a commentGo to comments
We have just released WebKitGTK+ 1.7.3, the first release that includes WebKit2 API docs already generated in the tarball. The documentation is also available online now. Take into account that WebKit2 is still under development and the API might change, more specifically WebKitWebLoaderClient is going to be removed soon.

What's new in WebKitGTK+ 1.7.1?

This is the first release providing a minimal working WebKit2 GTK+
API. This API is still under design and development, so use it
carefully and take into account that it might change.

Any tie-in to this Dec 16 th release and the Vita Dec 17 release in Japan?

Webkit2 appears to be the Sony target. Vita is getting webkitGTK version 1.7.2 which is the stable 1.7 version and this (1.7) release is concentrating on webkit 2 GTK API. Webkit2 is still limited as to GTK API (features) compared to the webkit 1 API (more feature support but not multi-threaded, as fast or as stable).

Vita is getting LIMITED browser support because of this or on purpose. PS3 might have more support and thus a later release for the new PS3 browser.

March 2012 is the next Gnome (3.4) cycle and the Gnome browser is targeted to have full webkit2 support. (webkit 2 GTK API will be finished before then) March is Samsung's release date for their new 2012 Smart TV which is based on Webkit.

I know I'm going to get a lot of flak on this but it's a reality. The GTK guys are 9 months behind Apple and 3-4 months behind Google (Chrome and Android) on supporting webkit2 (Apple released webkit 2 late (some believe on purpose) and only after pressure from the open source community).

Evoga · Dec 12, 2011

Wild speculation!!

The whole thread about the browser has just been that.

Are you truly insane?

Hanmik · Dec 12, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Warning Wild speculation.

ha ha ... lol.. way to go Jeff..!

Card Boy · Dec 12, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Warning Wild speculation

LOL!!!

jeff_rigby · Dec 12, 2011

Evoga said:
Wild speculation!!

The whole thread about the browser has just been that.

Are you truly insane?

When has always been wild speculation. Obviously you haven't been following the thread very closely or you would have seen that alot of early speculation in this thread has proved true. It's not just about the browser! Google is even using many of the same cross platform libraries that Sony is using. Is that by design (collaboration between Sony and Google) or because they are the best choices? In either case it implies that many of my "Walls of text" are correct. I believe androvsky has early on supported this and would agree; see post 1055 above.

Hanmik · Dec 12, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
When has always been wild speculation. Obviously you haven't been following the thread very closely or you would seen that alot of early speculation in this thread has proved true. It's not just about the browser! Google is even using many of the same cross platform libraries that Sony is using. Is that by design (collaboration between Sony and Google) or because they are the best choices? In either case it implies that many of my "Walls of text" are correct.

I read the title of the thread ": PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news .. maybe I can´t read..

Evoga · Dec 12, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
When has always been wild speculation. Obviously you haven't been following the thread very closely or you would seen that alot of early speculation in this thread has proved true. It's not just about the browser! Google is even using many of the same cross platform libraries that Sony is using. Is that by design (collaboration between Sony and Google) or because they are the best choices? In either case it implies that many of my "Walls of text" are correct.

Fair enough. I will leave you alone in the thread but it seemed to me like the rambling of someone highly intellectual yet suffering from mental problems.

JJD · Dec 12, 2011

Fucking hell...I don't now how some people still haven't been banned for a couple weeks because of this.

Stop harassing the guy. Neo Gaf is a well moderated forum, if the mods still haven't locked down this thread it's because they deem the discussion here acceptable.

Don't fucking post here if you don't like the speculation.

jeff_rigby · Dec 12, 2011

Hanmik said:
I read the title of the thread ": PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news .. maybe I can´t read..

I didn't name the thread and in my opinion it's about more than the browser as should be obvious by now. Gesh...... The same open source libraries needed to support webkit in the PS3 provide tools to support applications in the PS3. Those same libraries are being used by both PS Suite and Google NaCl games.

Wake UP!!!! LOLs are a poor substitute for honest comments on DISCOVERIES like in 1055!!! PS Suite comes on-line within weeks of Chrome NaCl games....why?

Cairo build for NaCl proof!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57332622-264/google-well-prove-native-clients-worth-on-the-web/ said:
The biggest barrier to NaCl's success so far is the lack of support from other browser makers. Without that, NaCl runs the risk of introducing a technology to the Web that fragments it as a programming platform. After years of concerted effort, browser makers and Web developers are only now building HTML, CSS, and JavaScript into a heavy-duty foundation to rival proprietary alternatives such as Adobe Systems' Flash and Microsoft's Silverlight.

Those plug-ins require browsers to have an interface such as NPAPI (Netscape Plug-in Application Programming Interface). Native Client needs an interface, too, but NPAPI isn't up to the challenge, so Google created a new one instead called Pepper. (NaCl is the chemical abbreviation for sodium chloride, more commonly known as table salt. Get it? Salt and pepper.)

The Native Client open-source technology is designed to run native compiled code securely inside browsers. Native Client puts web applications on the same playing field as local applications, providing the raw speed needed to compete with traditional software like 3D games, video editing, and other applications. Native Client also gives languages like C and C++ (and eventually others as well) the same level of portability and safety that JavaScript provides on the web today.

Here are some of the key features that Native Client offers:

Graphics, audio, and much more: Run native code modules that render 2D and 3D graphics, play audio, respond to mouse and keyboard events, run on multiple threads, and access memory directly—all without requiring the user to install a plugin.
Portability: Write your apps once and you'll be able to run them on any major platform (Windows, Linux, Mac, and soon, Chrome OS).
Security: Installing a desktop app or a browser plugin can present serious security risks and deter potential users. Native Client uses a double sandbox designed to protect resources on the user's system. This framework offers the safety of traditional web apps in addition to the performance benefits of native compiled code, without requiring users to install a plugin.
Easy migration path to the web: Many developers and companies have years of work invested in existing desktop applications. Native Client makes the transition from desktop app to web app significantly easier because Native Client supports C and C++ (and will continue to add more languages).
Performance: Native Client allows your app to run at a speed comparable to a desktop app. This capability enables demanding applications such as console-quality games to run inside the browser.

jeff_rigby · Dec 14, 2011

theBishop said:
But if you actually attempt to wade into the "content" of Jeff's loony posts, you'll see that it's not just about GTK#WebKitBrowser.web3point0. He also thinks the Gnome desktop (the most common UI for desktop Linux) is going to be ported to PS3.

It's all utterly ridiculous.

jeff_rigby said:
I've done the research and have read and understood the email from Geoff Levand (person in charge of the GTKwebkit port to the PS3, or rather the person signing off and posting the required LGPL Disclosures on-line). It's coming but he cautions to not have high expectations, he wrote that after reading my posts on the Sony Blog where I stated we might get a Sony flavor multi-media version of the Gnome Shell.

I have not said the PS3 is getting an exact copy of the Linux Gnome Shell. androvsky also misread my statements so I expect I have not made myself clear. For the Record: Sony can use Gnome technology to create a XMB with much of the functionality in a Linux Gnome shell but with a Look and Feel similar to the XMB UX. It appears from the Charles Ying post that Sony started doing this in 2009 with Firmware 3.0 (The Charles Ying "Framework to support Trilithium" in the PS3 would be CairoGL and Gstreamer. CairoGL does not requires Glib but Cairo-Pango does as does Gstreamer and Glib contains basic D-bus, ICE and Telepathy routines needed for Gnome shell inter-process functionality.)

In the Sony Forum blog I went on to state that this could alleviate much of the anger at the loss of functionality with Other OS (Linux) removal from the PS3. Geoff's email was very terse (short without much information) and I don't know if he, "don't have high expectations", meant a crippled browser or limited Gnome support on the XMB or homebrew ability.

Pie and Beans · Dec 14, 2011

I'd love for the PS3 to get some insane software upgrade like all of this from the browser to apps, but I just don't see it happening now, so late in the game. Maybe this stuff is pointing towards PS4 and theyre devving around with it on PS3 until that hardwares locked down, but I just dont think you can honestly see all this coming to PS3 anymore.

Especially when the Vita has a more advanced system, just released, and the PS3 has seen none of that incorporated into itself.

Panajev2001a · Dec 14, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
I didn't name the thread and in my opinion it's about more than the browser as should be obvious by now. Gesh...... The same open source libraries needed to support webkit in the PS3 provide tools to support applications in the PS3. Those same libraries are being used by both PS Suite and Google NaCl games.

Wake UP!!!! LOLs are a poor substitute for honest comments on DISCOVERIES like in 1055!!! PS Suite comes on-line within weeks of Chrome NaCl games....why?

Cairo build for NaCl proof!

PS Suite? Mono.Net based VM + IDE + GUI editor + tools. What about Google's Native Client plugin?

jeff_rigby · Dec 14, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
PS Suite? Mono.Net based VM + IDE + GUI editor + tools. What about Google's Native Client plugin?

I don't understand your question. Look at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33320752&postcount=1055 and go to http://code.google.com/p/naclports/...scripts/cairo-1.8.8/nacl-cairo-1.8.8.sh?r=141 Look at the blue box on the right side and look at Review URL and below it at the Go to Forms Window for scripts to compile Open Source applications and tools to be used in NaCl.

I am not saying that they are duplicates just that the model is similar and some of the open source native libraries are the same. PS Suite uses native Client libraries inside a sandbox (Mono) using the Android webkit browser (rewritten by Google to be API webkit standard) and Chrome NaCl (enabled by Google) uses native client libraries inside a sandbox in the Chrome webkit browser. Both use Mono which requires Cairo which requires Freetype fonts and (provably some) Sony PS Suite platforms include the Pango layout engine for international text wich requires Glib. One note-able difference is that they used different AV libraries; PS Suite uses Gstreamer and NaCl uses a BSD licence audio only library.

I didn't include Zlib for instance which we know is now in the PS3 "About" just released but was included in early PS3 applications. Zlib is also one of those Scripts for NaCl.

Also note-able is that PS Suite and Chrome are on platforms with webkit2 versions of Webkit.

In fact the model is so similar the fact that Chrome NaCl is only supporting desktop and PS Suite is only supporting hand-helds is suspicious....a timed agreement between Sony and Google?

jeff_rigby · Dec 14, 2011

Pie and Beans said:
I'd love for the PS3 to get some insane software upgrade like all of this from the browser to apps, but I just don't see it happening now, so late in the game. Maybe this stuff is pointing towards PS4 and theyre devving around with it on PS3 until that hardwares locked down, but I just dont think you can honestly see all this coming to PS3 anymore.

Especially when the Vita has a more advanced system, just released, and the PS3 has seen none of that incorporated into itself.

Multiple people have your opinion that it's late to be doing this.... Everything done for the PS3, since they are primarily using cross platform libraries will be use-able on a PS4.

The only things that bother me are PS Suite statements for the PS3 coming then maybe not. Mono is apparently available for the PS3 as it was stated by the author it's available for Android, Vita and PS3.

Panajev2001a · Dec 14, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
I don't understand your question. Look at http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33320752&postcount=1055 and go to http://code.google.com/p/naclports/...scripts/cairo-1.8.8/nacl-cairo-1.8.8.sh?r=141 Look at the blue box on the right side and look at Review URL and below it at the Go to Forms Window for scripts to compile Open Source applications and tools to be used in NaCl.

Also note-able is that PS Suite and Chrome are webkit2 versions of Webkit.

In fact the model is so similar the fact that Chrome NaCl is only supporting desktop and PS Suite is only supporting hand-helds is suspicious....a timed agreement between Sony and Google?

NativeClient != NDK, let's keep this in mind as they are not exactly the same in scope and purpose.
From public information, PS Suite is Sony's own custom virtual machine to be used on their platforms without necessarily using the Dalvik VM and on Android living in the space and with the resources it obtains from the Dalvik VM which is still under the hood doing its work even when you run native code (native as in code compiled for the target hardware).

Chrome OS, Chromium, Chrome browser != Android. They are not the same thing.
I frankly do not think PS Suite is about web apps running inside Webkit 2 and a port of the NaCl plugin to ARM and other architectures. IMHO, PS Suite is more about a games and high quality interactive GUI apps targeted VM which can run on all Sony's platforms. Think of it as a super PSP Minis program of some sort

.

NDK is here, works with ARM and x86 out of the box, and is what Sony is targeting with the PS Suite project IMHO.

P.S.: Last I checked, some of the new inputs for the Xperia Play (twin touchpads in particular) are only exposed by Sony through a C/C++ interface at the NDK level... accessing them is a must for PS Suite, I do not know of Webkit/Browser exposing an interface to them, I have not seen evidence of such a change done by Sony on Webkit for their Android phones either.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

PS Suite is more about a games and high quality interactive GUI apps targeted VM which can run on all Sony's platforms. Think of it as a super PSP Minis program of some sort .

(Edited to be more accurate)
PS suite must use a Mono VM and NaCl can use a Mono VM. PS Suite obtains some of it's resources from the Android Browser API (webkit) which is sitting on top of the webkit core. Chrome NaCl is similar, the Chrome browser code sitting on top of webkit which is on top of webcore provides a sandbox which limits access to the OS. We can go deeper into this with Google Chrome NaCl requiring native client libraries to be compiled with a special compiler which forces system access through the Chrome Browser allowed sandbox. OR PS Suite requiring system access through Mono which is also using the NDK you mentioned but can access Android features through the Browser sandbox. These are differences in the models.

Both PS Suite and Chrome NaCl allow access to webkit, PS Suite through Mono which can use Webkit and NaCl with Mono or using the Webkit C API. In any case Google did recently rewrite the Android browser and webkit like core to be more API compatible with webkit so developers could call and use webkit core features.

You might want to read: Google move hints at Chrome for Android It's about rewriting the core of the android browser to be more webkit compliant (for developers wanting to use webkit ) and the author is speculating Chrome being ported to Android. Edit: if he is correct then Chrome NaCl games coming to Android...both PS Suite and Chrome NaCl on Android at some point and PS suite on Desktop platforms at the same time? Timed exclusive agreement between Sony and Google splitting the market?

Androids browser and core diverged from the webkit API and developers could not use the same API calls. Google is rewriting the Android browser to be more compliant so developers can more easily use webkit features (read Mono in this context). This has already been done on Sony PS Suite Phones. This would also apply to Sony Google TV platforms which had a JSC engine for use by Mono but should now be able to use the Android webcore.

The point I was trying to make was both PS Suite and Chrome NaCl are using many of the same Gnome technology libraries. If they are doing this because they are the best choices by far then it supports Sony's choice in the PS3 and a recognition that those library choices may mean that Sony has or will use them for apps. If the choice is because of collaboration between Google and Sony then it still applies but even more so for apps written by Google or web apps supported by Google being used in Sony platforms like the PS3.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
PS suite uses a Mono VM and NaCl can use a Mono VM.

A lot of things can use Mono.Net...

PS Suite obtains it's resources from the Dalvik VM through the Android Browser which is sitting on top of the Webkit which is sitting on top of the webkit core.

No, this is not how native code on Android interacts with your Java code and the rest of the OS and vice-versa, they do not go through the web browser. NaCl and especially PNaCl are meant for the web browser and the pages which use functionality requiring it to execute fast native code, not as a service for other applications on the OS. Of course you could use that infrastructure to make a game inside the browser, you can already do it with WebGL and JavaScript, you will be able to do it with NaCl and access to OpenGL.

I think PS Suite applications will have access to a copy of the Mono.Net VM which has been ported and compiled with the NDK as a shared library which a small portion of your app (hidden away from you) will load when it starts.On other platforms you might be able to run the Mono.Net VM on whatever other software stack you have available, maybe a much thinner and faster layer than what you are given with the Dalvik + JNI path you have on Android.

About NDK, JNI, and Dalvik.
You write what essentially is a bridge between the two: on the C/C++ side you write specially named and set-up methods (JNI wrapper) which follow a certain coding convention to expose the native methods to the Java side and on the Java side you usually create a Wrapper that allows you to wrap the JNI bridges under more standard Java friendly structure.

You can think of Dalvik as the ultimate gatekeeper between the HW and your Android programs. The NDK exposes more and more functionality to you and when you want something from the Java side of things you go through Dalvik and the JNI bridges you set-up (and so does your Java code to call native functions). Apparently, the Dalvik tax is still not trivial even when you are in the realm of Native Activities, which means Android programs developed almost exclusively with native code and in which the Activity life cycle can be handled from the C/C++ code directly (http://developer.android.com/reference/android/app/NativeActivity.html).

BTW, difference between calling native code (compiled C/C++ code) from .NET and through JNI:
http://www.koushikdutta.com/2009/01/jni-in-android-and-foreword-of-why-jni.html (C#'s way is way cleaner, slightly old document though)

The above is my understanding of PS Suite and Chrome NaCl from the reading I have done in the last 30 days. It appears my understanding is subtly different from yours or we have a communication problem (probably on my side). In any case thanks, it forced me to have a possibly <grin> clearer understanding of both Chrome NaCl and PS Suite.

The problem in this case seems to be the fact that there are multiple ways to do something (execute native code inside an application/platform which normally runs interpreted code basically) and you might be confusing similarities between the approaches to proofs that they are the same thing.

The NDK exists since mid 2009, the first "beta" of the NativeClient plugin for ARM dates to mide 2010 or so and it still is not even close to release on Android through a complete Chrome port.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

This:

PS Suite obtains it's resources from the Dalvik VM through the Android Browser which is sitting on top of the Webkit which is sitting on top of the webkit core.

does not necessarily follow from this:

PS suite must use a Mono VM and NaCl can use a Mono VM.

Also, why should it go through Webkit to get access to Dalvik when it has a much shorter path (JNI)?

StoppedInTracks · Dec 15, 2011

I appreciate Panajev's input but none of that will be done on/ for the PS3. PS4 is another story.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
Also, why should it go through Webkit to get access to Dalvik when it has a much shorter path (JNI)?

Not webkit but the browser which is separate from the webkit and webcore I think it's very interesting to see that they use the MONO sandbox

I do remember reading PS Suite is running in the Android browser sandbox. PS Suite does require Mono and Chrome NaCl does not but requires native libraries to use a compiler that forces I/O through the browser sandbox. It could be more accurate to say that Mono is the sandbox but gets access to Android routines through the Android browser code. Not sure now, will do more searching.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Not webkit but the browser which is separate from the webkit and webcore

I think it's very interesting to see that they use the MONO sandbox

I do remember reading PS Suite is running in the Android browser sandbox. PS Suite does require Mono and Chrome NaCl does not but requires native libraries to use a compiler that forces I/O through the browser sandbox. It could be more accurate to say that Mono is the sandbox but gets access to Android routines through the Android browser code.

I think the choices are to insure an easier common cross platform PS Suite API. The browser interface to the OS Platform (If supporting webkit2) should be the same (works for both PS Suite Mono and Chrome NaCl). Do I need to expand on this? The browser exposes access to multiple native language routines supporting webkit. I poorly explained my reasoning in previous posts...sorry.

StoppedInTracks said:
I appreciate Panajev's input but none of that will be done on/ for the PS3. PS4 is another story

PS Suite may come to the PS3...it's up in the air with several Sony comments confirming then backing off.

opps sorry, I meant for only one edited post.

MrPliskin · Dec 15, 2011

Why would PS Suite come to PS3? Granted I haven't followed it much, but I was pretty certain it was a development framework for Android infrastructure and the PS Vita. Given that the goal of PS Suite is to allow certain PS titles to run on the Android platform (which consists of only PS1 titles at the moment) it makes no sense for Suite to come to PS3, since it already emulates PS1 titles flawlessly.

Also, pretty sure it's coming to Vita solely as an Emulation tool for PS1 titles, and not for anything else. Seems like a whole lot of speculation with a very small amount of tangible information.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

MrPliskin said:
Why would PS Suite come to PS3? Granted I haven't followed it much, but I was pretty certain it was a development framework for Android infrastructure and the PS Vita. Given that the goal of PS Suite is to allow certain PS titles to run on the Android platform (which consists of only PS1 titles at the moment) it makes no sense for Suite to come to PS3, since it already emulates PS1 titles flawlessly.

Also, pretty sure it's coming to Vita solely as an Emulation tool for PS1 titles, and not for anything else. Seems like a whole lot of speculation with a very small amount of tangible information.

The goal of PS Suite is much above and beyond the scope you have in mind

.

PS Suite presentation at GDC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clk3uu6o5KY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQk-tuPFmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_oXvIhOWM (I think this is the video in which they show the IDE and most importantly a good attempt at an Interface Builder clone)

Do you like this kind of tangible information

?

P.S.: PS Suite could have been even more awesome it it were built on Sony's own SNAP platform (now abandoned Objective-C + GNUStep powered framework)

, but C# is good too

.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

MrPliskin said:
Why would PS Suite come to PS3? Granted I haven't followed it much, but I was pretty certain it was a development framework for Android infrastructure and the PS Vita. Given that the goal of PS Suite is to allow certain PS titles to run on the Android platform (which consists of only PS1 titles at the moment) it makes no sense for Suite to come to PS3, since it already emulates PS1 titles flawlessly.

Also, pretty sure it's coming to Vita solely as an Emulation tool for PS1 titles, and not for anything else. Seems like a whole lot of speculation with a very small amount of tangible information.

Yes that's true and PS Suite on the PS3 for only applications was mentioned.

Vita is not running on an Android OS. Sony quote; "Any applications written for the Vita with the Android hardware limitations in mind (no game controls) can be PS Suite applications" and also ported to the PS3 version of PS Suite.

Future PS Suite games (not Sony ported PS1) will have no emulation ability on the PS3. Panajev2001a got in before me....he is correct...the support for PS Suite is outstanding and there is nothing like it for the PS3...well maybe in PS3 developer kits but this is the first open to possibly homebrew because of the Mono sandbox which might be accessing the PS3 through the new GTKwebkit (2) browser.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
I do remember reading PS Suite is running in the Android browser sandbox.

Where? Sorry, but I do not remember reading that.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

Vita is not running on an Android OS. Sony quote; "Any applications written for the Vita with the Android hardware limitations in mind (no game controls) can be PS Suite applications" and also ported to the PS3 version of PS Suite.

The part of the quote in bold seems to me as being your take on the issue, not Sony's words... even if they were the presentation above shows that sentence to be inaccurate at best.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Not webkit but the browser which is separate from the webkit and webcore I think it's very interesting to see that they use the MONO sandbox

There is still no urging need to go through webkit and webcore to access Dalvik's resources and talk to the Java side of things from native code because you already have the default and officially sanctioned way of doing so which is JNI.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
There is still no urging need to go through webkit and webcore to access Dalvik's resources and talk to the Java side of things from native code because you already have the default and officially sanctioned way of doing so which is JNI.

Yes but Native code which supports webkit and webkit routines including the javascript engine (also native language) can be accessed through the Android browser APIs in a cross platform standard. This is just a guess and has no cites other than it's obvious. I'll still search for the browser sandbox reference for PS Suite.

If you look at it a certain way, Android should not be used for anything requiring performance.

If you accept my guess about Mono using the webkit 2 browser API to access the native language libraries supporting webkit, it opens a line of speculation that might explain Sony comments about PS Suite (on again and off again) and the PS3. The Cell is not a very good general purpose CPU and only one PPU is a limitation so SPURs routines are in the PS3 (from unauthorized website file list for PS3 Firmware 3.55). Glib, Mono and webkit routines are going to strain that general purpose ability. Just a guess, another would be the open access to the PS3 enabled by Mono-PS Suite is feared.

The Mono developer has tweeted that supported Mono platforms include Vita, Android and the PS3. That's past tense! Mono for the PS3 has been available....for how long? a PS3 MonoJIT port was started in 2009. The framework to support Sony IPTV may be Mono and that's wild speculation.

SappYoda · Dec 15, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
The goal of PS Suite is much above and beyond the scope you have in mind .

PS Suite presentation at GDC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clk3uu6o5KY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQk-tuPFmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_oXvIhOWM (I think this is the video in which they show the IDE and most importantly a good attempt at an Interface Builder clone)

Do you like this kind of tangible information ?

P.S.: PS Suite could have been even more awesome it it were built on Sony's own SNAP platform (now abandoned Objective-C + GNUStep powered framework) , but C# is good too .

Looks awesome. Thank You.

jeff_rigby · Dec 15, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
The goal of PS Suite is much above and beyond the scope you have in mind .

PS Suite presentation at GDC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clk3uu6o5KY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUQk-tuPFmY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_oXvIhOWM (I think this is the video in which they show the IDE and most importantly a good attempt at an Interface Builder clone)

Do you like this kind of tangible information ?

P.S.: PS Suite could have been even more awesome it it were built on Sony's own SNAP platform (now abandoned Objective-C + GNUStep powered framework) , but C# is good too .

SappYoda said:
Looks awesome. Thank You.

It's interesting that Panajev2001a has mentioned the Sony SNAP program and provided links to the PS Suite GDC lectures just as I have done in this thread. I too consider this important to understanding where Sony is going. Are posters going to call Panajev2001a crazy too? <sigh>

GDC Lecture and Mono in PS3 info
Sony SNAP mentioned in reference to Cairo quote

Found a reference:

jeff_rigby said:
Edit: From Sony-Erikson video, Android's webkit had to be modified to work with PS Suite as it breaks from Webkit standards. This is another job Sony has to do for PS Suite. I believe I read where Google is rewriting Android's webkit to be more compliant.

There is another one I'm still looking for that mentions the Android sandbox....put the two together. I'll still try to find that reference.

http://www.mono-project.com/WebBrowser

Netflix latest update again reduced in size to 13 meg from 16 megs with the first version of Netflix in the PS3 at 21 megs. As more and more of Netflix is supported by the PS3 OS the size of the Netflix application drops.

SappYoda · Dec 15, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
It's interesting that Panajev2001a has mentioned the Sony SNAP program and provided links to the PS Suite GDC lectures just as I have done in this thread. I too consider this important to understanding where Sony is going. Are posters going to call Panajev2001a crazy too? <sigh>

I've been enjoying this thread since its beginning and I don't think you are crazy. As someone posted before its not that your info is inaccurate, but that you catch things too early and with the possibility of being cancelled, adjourned or not being used at all in the end.

This whole thread is unique and very educational, so please don't ever stop posting

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

Yes but Native code which supports webkit and webkit routines including the javascript engine (also native language) can be accessed through the Android browser APIs in a cross platform standard.

So? We are at the "it is possible to do it this way, so they must have done it this way".
The problem is that while it indeed is technically possible to do it jumping through hoops, they have a better path on Android if they use what it is meant to be used in cases like this one. JNI (and the NDK).
Maybe one days we will only use JavaScript or a higher level version of it plus CSS for application code and layout, but while Sony wants to provide a cross platform solution... Sony wants it to be PlayStation Suite.

Whether you use other layers to give PS Suite the resources and I/O paths it needs, it makes little difference (in theory). Still, the NDK+JNI path looks like the most straightforward approach of the two we are looking at here... at least it does look that way to me.

Panajev2001a · Dec 15, 2011

Edit: From Sony-Erikson video, Android's webkit had to be modified to work with PS Suite as it breaks from Webkit standards. This is another job Sony has to do for PS Suite. I believe I read where Google is rewriting Android's webkit to be more compliant.

This could be interpreted to mean that Sony wants a more optimized webView for programs running on PS Suite and that might not have a similar framework in the OS or in another system component. It is still different from claiming that NaCl is the secret sauce behind PS Suite and how it inter-operates with Dalvik VM, which I do not think it is.

DarkFlow · Dec 15, 2011

Keep up the good work Jeff. I don't understand half the shit you say, but I'm impressed by your passion. I hope your proved right soon.

theBishop · Dec 15, 2011

SappYoda said:
I've been enjoying this thread since its beginning and I don't think you are crazy. As someone posted before its not that your info is inaccurate, but that you catch things too early and with the possibility of being cancelled, adjourned or not being used at all in the end.

Untrue. His info is 100% inaccurate.

jeff_rigby · Dec 16, 2011

Panajev2001a said:
So? We are at the "it is possible to do it this way, so they must have done it this way".
The problem is that while it indeed is technically possible to do it jumping through hoops, they have a better path on Android if they use what it is meant to be used in cases like this one. JNI (and the NDK).
Maybe one days we will only use JavaScript or a higher level version of it plus CSS for application code and layout, but while Sony wants to provide a cross platform solution... Sony wants it to be PlayStation Suite.

Whether you use other layers to give PS Suite the resources and I/O paths it needs, it makes little difference (in theory). Still, the NDK+JNI path looks like the most straightforward approach of the two we are looking at here... at least it does look that way to me.

PS Suite does not allow you to directly access native code or the Android stack, everything is through Mono. We are confusing how Mono interacts with Android and gets access to system features with how we as developers will get access. Its understandable as I started with a statement that Chrome NaCl and PS suite are similar.

PS Suite Mono needs access to a webcore that follows webkit API. The Android browser diverged from that and Google is bringing it back into compliance so developers can use webkit's core. Mono is the PS Suite sandbox, that's now clear to me. I did read that Mono runs in the Android Browsers sandbox but that must be wrong and a misunderstanding on a writers part that I accepted without thinking about it.

jeff_rigby · Dec 17, 2011

Vita Browser Documentation

Multiple Browser windows can be open, Up to 8 tabs at a time in a browser window.

Multi-window, multi-tab would suggest webkit2...not absolutely necessary but more stable and one tab crashing won't affect the whole browser. We will have to wait for reviews on this, if they mention a tab crash does not lock the browser then it's most likely a webkit2.

GTKwebkit 1.73 just released and GTK API for webkit 2 was a major feature partially implemented. Sony may have been waiting for webkit 2 to port the already disclosed GTKwebkit to the PS3.

SappYoda · Dec 17, 2011

PS Vita browser test: http://www.roshi.tv/2011/12/psvitano.html

Not great

, it barely supports html5.

Thats a lost opportunity for Sony. I don't think it would be very difficult to support at least a video or audio tag. And of course, no webgl support.

Code:

html5test.com http://html5test.com/ &#12398;&#23455;&#34892;&#32080;&#26524;
&#12473;&#12467;&#12450;&#65306;66 + 0 Bonus&#65288;PC&#29256;Chrome16&#65306;344 + 13 Bonus&#65289;
Parsing rules                                1/11
   triggers standards mode     Yes
  HTML5 tokenizer                              No
  HTML5 tree building                          No
  SVG in text/html                             No
  MathML in text/html                          No

Canvas                                         20
  canvas element                              Yes
  2D context                                  Yes
  Text                                        Yes

Video                                        0/31
  video element                                No
  Subtitle support                             No
  Poster image support                         No
  MPEG-4 support                               No
  H.264 support                                No
  Ogg Theora support                           No
  WebM support                                 No

Audio                                        0/31
  audio element                                No
  PCM audio support                            No
  MP3 support                                  No
  AAC support                                  No
  Ogg Vorbis support                           No
  WebM support                                 No

Elements                                     6/28
  Embedding custom non-visible data            No
  New or modified elements
    Section elements                           No
    Grouping content elements                  No
    Text-level semantic elements       Partial &#9675;
    Interactive elements               Partial &#9675;
Global attributes or methods
  hidden attribute                             No
  Dynamic markup insertion                    Yes

Forms                                       11/98
Field types
  input type=search                           Yes
  input type=tel                              Yes
  input type=url                       Partial &#9675;
  input type=email                     Partial &#9675;
  input type=datetime                          No
  input type=date                              No
  input type=month                             No
  input type=week                              No
  input type=time                              No
  input type=datetime-local                    No
  input type=number                    Partial &#9675;
  input type=range                     Partial &#9675;
  input type=color                             No
  input type=checkbox                         Yes
  input type=image                     Partial &#9675;
  textarea                             Partial &#9675;
  select                               Partial &#9675;
  fieldset                             Partial &#9675;
  datalist                                     No
  keygen                               Partial &#9675;
  output                                       No
  progress                                     No
  meter                                        No
Fields
  Field validation                             No
  Association of controls and forms            No
  Other attributes                     Partial &#9675;
  CSS selectors                                No
  Events                               Partial &#9675;
Forms
  Form validation                              No

User interaction                            17/36
Drag and drop
  Attributes                                   No
  Events                                       No
HTML editing
  Editing elements                            Yes
  Editing documents                           Yes
  APIs                                        Yes

History and navigation                        0/5
  Session history                              No

Microdata                                     0/5
  Microdata                                    No

Web applications                             0/20
  Application Cache                            No
  Custom scheme handlers                       No
  Custom content handlers                      No
  Custom search providers                      No

Security                                     0/10
Sandboxed iframe                               No
Seamless iframe                                No

Related specifications
Geolocation                                  0/15
  Geolocation                                  No

WebGL
  3D context                                   No
    Native binary data                         No

Communication                                5/25
  Cross-document messaging                    Yes
  Server-Sent Events                           No
  WebSocket                                    No

Files                                        0/20
  FileReader API                               No
  FileSystem API                               No

Storage                                      0/20
  Session Storage                              No
  Local Storage                                No
  IndexedDB                                    No
  Web SQL Database                             No

Workers                                      0/15
  Web Workers                                  No
  Shared Workers                               No

Local multimedia                             0/20
  Access the webcam                            No

Notifications                                0/10
  Web Notifications                            No

Other                                           6
Text selection                                Yes
Scroll into view                              Yes

I am really dissapointed.

I don't think they are going to fix this.

jeff_rigby · Dec 17, 2011

SappYoda said:
PS Vita browser test: http://www.roshi.tv/2011/12/psvitano.html

Not great , it barely supports html5.

Thats a lost opportunity for Sony. I don't think it would be very difficult to support at least a video or audio tag. And of course, no webgl support.

I called it in message #1056 above, Vita release browser would be limited! But

due to the COMPLETE webkit core it scores a 99/100 on the acid 3 test and the webkit2 to GTK API interface is not finished yet.

Geolocation, SVG and WebGL not implemented yet.... Admittedly, Sony is going to not support some features to lock us into them but SVG icons and text is not a threat and appear to be needed by the new PS store and menu navigation. By Feb 2012 more of the Webkit2 API will be done and Vitas sold in the US should have a more robust webkit browser. Expect many updates for Vita.

Your find is more support for webkit2 if I'm correct.

Also in the link provided by SappYoda is what appears to be a list of intellectual property in the Vita:

Access NetFront
asiasoft AsiaFont
FONTFWORKS（日本語フォント/欧文フォントの一部）
MPEGLA(MPEG-4)
iWnn
楽ひら（手書き文字認識エンジン）Handwriting recognition
QUALCOMM
RSA
Skyhook Wireless
Sony Music Publishing
Fraunhofer IIS and Thomson(MP3)
blist
CyrusSASL
FLANN
FreeBSD
FreeType
giflib
libEtPan! Open Source mail library supports Gmail
libjpeg
libtiff
MD5
NetBSD
OpenCV (Open Source Computer Vision) is a library of programming functions for real time computer vision.
squish
strlcpy

Which would indicate the Vita is using the same OS (kernel) as the PS3; FreeBSD with routines from NetBSD. Just as the choice to use a BSD licence version of Pearl regular expressions which is a required part of a Script engine (needed to process text expressions, find etc.) like that used for Python in OLPC which I believe is the Game OS mentioned by Sony that influenced the Vita OS. LGPL would require Sony publish a Diff file so that others could upgrade to newer versions themselves. BSD only requires an acknowledgement. Using the Netfront Access NX browser front end helps keep Sony from being required to publishing the webkit API and Browser Diff. This would apply to the PS3 also....we may get a Netfront NX browser front end for the PS3.

Browser or parts of the browser are from Access Netfront but at the same time they say they license WebKit?

http://www.scei.co.jp/psvita-license/webkit.html
http://www.scei.co.jp/psvita-license/WebKit.tar.gz webkit disclosure file , it contains every branch of webkit including GTK <sigh> but no way to tell the build

http://www.scei.co.jp/psvita-license/

Open source software used in PS Vita

1. blist Web based database
2. bzip2 Open source data compressor
3. Cyrus SASL Simple Authentication and Security Layer
4. FreeBSD Unix OS
5. FreeType2 Fonts
6. giflib GIF picture library utilities
7. libEtPan! Mail library
8. libjpeg Jpeg picture utilities
9. libpng PNG picture utilities
10. libtiff Tiff picture utilities
11. MD5 Checksum
12. NetBSD Unix OS
13. squish Open Source DXT compression
14. strlcpy String copy with protection for buffer overflow (increases security)
15. zlib Compression library

Internet Browser

1. cairo SVG drawing library and more used by webkit for rendering text and graphics
2. dtoa Math rounding libary
3. expat Expat is a stream-oriented XML 1.0 parser library, written in C
4. FreeType2
5. hash.c routines to manipulate a hash table = data structure that uses a hash function to map identifying values, known as keys
6. ICU Unicode and Globalization support for software applications
7. libjpeg
8. libpixman library of Pixel manipulation routines now part of Cairo?????
9. libxml2
10. list.c
11. PCRE Perl Compatible Regular Expressions (or something like it is part of script engines; PHP, Mono, Python and more)
12. trio Trio - portable and extendable printf and string functions
13. Webkit

Welcome Park

1. Boost C++ libraries
2. FLANN "Fast Approximate Nearest Neighbors with Automatic Algorithm in C++ Configuration
3. OpenCV (Open Source Computer Vision) is a library of programming functions for real time computer vision.

Open source list for the Vita might be misleading. There is no Mono or GTK+ UI toolkit, both should be part of PS Suite. Cairo is listed for only the browser port but is needed for Mono/PS Suite and GTK toolkit. Cairo is not listed for the Vita OS but Pixman is listed outside of Cairo, Cairo and Pixman are normally together to reduce the size of the combined libary; Cairo = (Cairo SVG + Pixman + GlitZ). In this case the Vita OS may not use Cairo, instead uses Pixman which would mean the Vita OS UI does not use the GTK toolkit (PS SUite has it's own UI Toolkit which might be a heavily modified GTK+ which Sony may not have to disclose).

Mono & Glib (eglib is an abbreviated version of Glib with only those functions needed by Mono). Geoclue is also missing.

MPEGLA (Mpeg4) codec is listed but no core or player that could use them. GTKWebkit for the PS3 lists gstreamer, SNAP listed it, Gstreamer is in Sony Networked TVs, Google TV and blu-ray players and PDFs from Netfront ACCESS is using Gstreamer with browsers.

Netfront Browser Open source Software includes Gnome.

Specifications | NetFront Browser NX

[Markup]
HTML 5, HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, XML 1.1, RSS feed (RSS 0.9/0.91/0.92/1.0/2.0, Atom 1.0)
[Style Sheets]
CSS1, CSS2.1, CSS3
[Advanced Scripting]
ECMAScript 262 3rd Edition
DOM Level 1, Level 2, Level 3
Ajax (XMLHttpRequest)
[Protocols]
HTTP 1.0/1.1
IPv4/IPv6
[Security]
SSL3
TLS1.0
[Memory Requirements]
ROM: 12MB (Browser engine only)
RAM: Less than 25MB (Depending on web content)
[Main Features]
Tabbed Multi-Window support
Smart Frame (Frame Flattening)
Continuously adjustable Zooming/Animated Zoom
Page/Image Saving
Word Wrap, Line boundary character check
International Domain Name
[Supported Operating Systems]
Linux® (Android™, Qt/Embedded, Qtopia, GTK+, and others)
UNIX
Microsoft® Windows® CE family, Microsoft® Windows Mobile® (Pocket PC, Smartphone)
Others
[Supported CPU]
ARM®
XScale
StrongARM®
Others
[Plug-In and Extension Modules]

Adobe Flash Player 10 (In planning)

The webkit2 GTK API is not finished, it's only partially implemented which might explain the Vita browser lack of features. Royalty for Mpeg2 is $2.00 per platform and Mpeg4 (h.264) is free till 100k units then $.20 per platform till several million then $.10 per unit. This might explain the Vita without Mpeg2 support.

Vita Documentation

SappYoda · Dec 17, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Vita Browser Documentation

Multiple Browser windows can be open, Up to 8 tabs at a time in a browser window.

Multi-window, multi-tab would suggest webkit2...not absolutely necessary but more stable and one tab crashing won't affect the whole browser. We will have to wait for reviews on this, if they mention a tab crash does not lock the browser then it's most likely a webkit2.

GTKwebkit 1.73 just released and GTK API for webkit 2 was a major feature (partially implemented). Sony may have been waiting for webkit 2 to port the already disclosed GTKwebkit to the PS3.

jeff_rigby said:
But

and the webkit2 to GTK API interface is not finished yet.

[User-Agent] => Mozilla/5.0 (PlayStation Vita 1.00) AppleWebKit/531.22.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Silk/3.2

It uses 531. The same used safari 4 or chrome 2 in september 2009...

SappYoda · Dec 17, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
Geolocation, SVG and WebGL not implemented yet.... Admittedly, Sony is going to not support some features to lock us into them but SVG icons and text is not a threat and appear to be needed by the new PS store and menu navigation. By Feb 2012 more of the Webkit2 API will be done and Vitas sold in the US should have a more robust webkit browser. Expect many updates for Vita.

Your find is more support for webkit2 if I'm correct.

Now I'm pretty sure Sony is not going to use cutting edge software for security reasons.
Microsoft stated that WebGL contained security holes.

jeff_rigby · Dec 17, 2011

SappYoda said:
Now I'm pretty sure Sony is not going to use cutting edge software for security reasons.
Microsoft stated that WebGL contained security holes.

[User-Agent] => Mozilla/5.0 (PlayStation Vita 1.00) AppleWebKit/531.22.8 (KHTML, like Gecko) Silk/3.2

It uses 531. The same used safari 4 or chrome 2 in september 2009...

The user agent string is chosen to give a web site an idea of the features supported, it does not necessarily indicate the webkit build. If I am correct and more is coming (with webkit2 GTK API updates to the GTKwebkit builds)....the user agent string will be changed when the Vita browser supports more features.

If I'm wrong then how does it benefit Sony? I don't think it can be used with the new Playstation picture navigation menu that we have been told is coming, or the on-line video documentation and help or even Google+ or any of the since August Google websites that no longer support older browsers.

Good find by the way. <grin>

The Vita browser supports 8 tabs and multiple browser windows with real windows (GTK?) open on the Vita screen not just Full screen mode. That would seem to indicate to me that big things are planned for the Vita browser. Again, Sony may have been waiting for webkit 2 as it's faster/more secure and plugins can be safely run or sandboxed. GTKwebkit2 is not finished. Not allowing YouTube video to play via the browser is unthinkable.....the Vita browser must not be finished.

Also the delay in supporting PS Suite on Vita may be related to this also. PS Suite's Mono needs a webkit core to API call/use to support applications and Vita's webkit API if GTKwebkit 2 is not done yet. Android's browser in PS Suite certified platforms is webkit2. PS Suite includes a modified GTK toolkit with Sony POSIX theme for Android and would use the modified GTK toolkit (Sony POSIX theme) already in the Vita (all speculation at this time).

"Microsoft stated that WebGL contained security holes." which have been addressed by Nvidia and Google in Chrome and those updates pushed upstream to the webkit build. It's also another reason to wait for webkit2.

jeff_rigby · Dec 18, 2011

Geolocation lib in the PS3 webkit disclosure

$(CAIRO_LIBS) \ Cairo SVG library
+ $(COVERAGE_LDFLAGS) \
+ $(ENCHANT_LIBS) \...............Front end API for a spell checker and more
+ $(FREETYPE_LIBS) \...............Font Library
+ $(GAIL_LIBS) \......................GNOME Accessibility Implementation Library
+ $(GEOCLUE_LIBS) \...............No need for this on the PS3, NGP will use!
+ $(GLIB_LIBS) \......................low level C cross platform lib (needed for just about everything webkit & cairo & Gstreamer)
+ $(GSTREAMER_LIBS) \...........Gstreamer AV library *
+ $(GTK_LIBS) \.......................GTK toolkit library
+ $(HILDON_LIBS) \..................See below*
+ $(JPEG_LIBS) \......................Jpeg compression picture library (Video too?)
+ $(LIBSOUP_LIBS) \................HTTP library
+ $(LIBXML_LIBS) \
+ $(LIBXSLT_LIBS) \
+ $(PANGO_LIBS) \...................International Fonts Cairo-pango = SVG international fonts
+ $(PNG_LIBS) \.......................PNG picture library
+ $(SQLITE3_LIBS) \.................Data Base Library
+ $(UNICODE_LIBS) \

+ $(XT_LIBS) \.........................
+ $(WINMM_LIBS) \..................
+ $(SHLWAPI_LIBS) \ wrapper functions convert the Unicode input string parameters to ANSI and call ANSI versions of functions
+ $(OLE32_LIBS)

Geolocation is a HTML5 feature that reports the Latitude and Longitude with the users permission from a GPS embedded in the handheld. It is not supported on the PS3 (location can be roughly discovered from IP address tables) so why is the library listed in the PS3 GTKwebkit disclosure?

I touched on this early on and mentioned that it might mean that Sony is also using GTKwebkit for the Vita. I still think so even though from the above HTML5 test Geolocation is not supported YET. Its one of those HTML5 features of the Webkit and API interface with the OS system and User that is not implemented yet!

If Sony waited on GTKwebkit2 for the Vita they will wait on GTKwebkit2 for the PS3. GTKwebkit2 is only partially implemented but the Vita can not ship without a browser even though a partial implementation (with a 99% Acid Test because the webkit core is done). The PS3 has a browser (though it tests only 27% on the acid test) and Sony will probably wait till the GTkwebkit2 API interface is completed which will occur before March 2012 before porting the browser front end to the PS3 (webkit core is already in the PS3).

Panajev2001a · Dec 18, 2011

jeff_rigby said:
PS Suite does not allow you to directly access native code or the Android stack, everything is through Mono.

... and how do you think Mono accesses Android resources and device resources which are NDK bound at this point? Dalvik (native code compiled with the NDK has Dalvik as Gatekeeper anyways).

We are confusing how Mono interacts with Android and gets access to system features with how we as developers will get access.

No, I am not confusing the two. I am stating that the Mono.Net VM does not sit entirely atop a webcore as you call it (of course it has web aware components which would need webcore), but it fits in Android devices just like any other "native" application does. One Mono.Net VM per PS Suite application application and the Mono.Net VM is basically a big box of natively compiled code (thanks NDK). The NDK can currently do basically everything a normal Java application can do on Android (including managing the activity lifecycle). The point of Native Activities is to basically have a single small entry point in Java which jumps into native code (C/C++, any language you can use the NDK to compile native binaries with) and basically stays there till the activity is either killed, suspended, or exited.
The Mono.Net VM is already shipped in iOS and Android applications this way... Sony is just adding a whole bunch of libraries and hooks for their tools. Also, controlling the amount of devices it has to run on, they can allow developers to target them more easily and more directly.
This is not a different strategy from the one Java apps already adopt under Android, every activity launched has its own Dalvik VM sitting next to it.

Mono is the PS Suite sandbox, that's now clear to me.

It is entirely possible that they did this, the Android "jail" would not help for PS Suite applications on other OS's.

Oni Jazar · Dec 19, 2011

SappYoda said:
PS Vita browser test: http://www.roshi.tv/2011/12/psvitano.html

Not great , it barely supports html5.

Thats a lost opportunity for Sony. I don't think it would be very difficult to support at least a video or audio tag. And of course, no webgl support.

I think the 3DS has a higher score

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PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news

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