michaelius
Banned
And let's not forget that Wii apart from Japan was always bundled with at least 1 game and the number also includes stuff like Wii Play sold for essentially 10$.
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Beamdog founder Trent Oster: "We don't do Nintendo development"
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
And let's not forget that Wii apart from Japan was always bundled with at least 1 game and the number also includes stuff like Wii Play sold for essentially 10$.
Beef Stallmer
Banned
A friend of mine is really close to the developers of (the excellent) DS-10 and the subsequent versions. He explained how they were treated by Nintendo.
When I read the thread title, the "We don't do Nintendo development"-part I immediately interpreted it as Trent Oster saying: "we don't enjoy being fucked in the ass", which was pretty accurate after reading the interview.
I know that a lot of people are in love with Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Super Smash Brothers, Luigi, Bowser, et al. But this is just how Nintendo functions in regard to small developers. That does not make the latest Pokemon any less fun.
So I don't know why people could be defending Nintendo in this case.
With DS-10, cartridges had to be manufactured so I can imagine Nintendo being a little anal.
Wii-ware however has little to no risk involved for Nintendo.
When I read the thread title, the "We don't do Nintendo development"-part I immediately interpreted it as Trent Oster saying: "we don't enjoy being fucked in the ass", which was pretty accurate after reading the interview.
I know that a lot of people are in love with Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Super Smash Brothers, Luigi, Bowser, et al. But this is just how Nintendo functions in regard to small developers. That does not make the latest Pokemon any less fun.
So I don't know why people could be defending Nintendo in this case.
With DS-10, cartridges had to be manufactured so I can imagine Nintendo being a little anal.
Wii-ware however has little to no risk involved for Nintendo.
Kong Fisso
Banned
Lol, Beamdog gets shafted by Nintendo's shit DD-service, Oster details his experiences and is then called "childish" by deluded forum fanboys who tries to paint him with some sort of agenda.
Oster is really not the childish one here.
Oster is really not the childish one here.
Exactly, and the same could be said about Nintendo's entire history with 3rd parties so there isn't exactly reason to think they want more third-party support. Proven 3rd party IPs that mesh with their marketing approach but do not overlap with Nintendo specific offerings (like Monster Hunter and Dragon Quest)? Sure, they can come along and Nintendo makes a little effort to show them some love. But other than that devs are on their own and working within a 1st party approval/publishing system that is entirely neglectful.
My fucking sides are splitting. Yes, it's Baldur's Gate that is the issue here, let's boycott it.
Those are all first party titles, i.e. you're proving his point...
shrimpjive
Banned
no think about it for a sec...ninty (nintendo) is a world leader of games..it should be illegal to say bad things about ninty because you can effect there business and prevent 3rd party exclusives with such lies..its not there fault the game sold like crap..wiiware is better than steam and xbla arcade for great games....
maybe a petition would work instead.
Maybe we should change the ending.
Glass Rebel
Member
The reading comprehension in this thread is truly astounding.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Your problem with this is that the Wii was a great seller and still had the problems that he mentioned. The Wii's success does not fix things, and if I had his experience, I wouldn't react by giving them a second chance.
why yes, an omelette does sound good right about now.
Droog
Member
Look out, Oster! Nintendo libel case incoming!
I gave up when I realised people confused the terms fan and fanboy.
Glass Rebel
Member
That makes you sound like an entitled whiner tbh.
BGBW said:
You mean it's possible to say something not-bad about a company and not be a mindless corporate shill? Surely you jest.
Exactly and related to what I posted earlier too.I don't even know why I'm typing this, because it should be obvious, but this process is what every dev and publisher should do (and in theory does) for every game in every platform, it's not limited to Nintendo consoles and whatever restrictions they might pose. Every game needs to have a target audience in mind and the costs of development and publishing should take in mind the possible outcome to selling the product to that specific audience.
You also need to take into account whatever the platform owner throws your way: size limits, quality checks, royalties, hardware limitations, controller you name it.
This is the case for every platform and you need to choose wisely and own up to your mistakes. And the lowest common denominator to measure success? Profit.
Renegade Kid did all of this so far, which is why they're a good example of how it's possible to have success on Nintendo platforms both in the physical and digital market.
Team Meat or rather Edmund McMillen in particular is an example of someone who couldn't make it, but didn't act like a spoiled kid. They really wanted Super Meat Boy on WiiWare, it wasn't possible because of size limits, they talked about it, said it was too bad, moved on.
McMillen tried to put The Binding of Isaac on 3DS it didn't get it approved (not a shocker) and he took it like a champ.
I don't see how examples of level-minded and successful small devs who can take success and failures like grown-ups aren't relevant to this discussion. Hell, I can't think of anything more relevant.
I see no problem with the latest statements from Oster though, he comes across as short-sighted, but asides from that he aired his complaints in a reasonable manner. His tweets on the other hand showed the way he thinks, which is more befitting of a random forumite than of someone who's running a business.
The reason I'm typing all this when it's been mostly covered to death is because I'm avoiding studying
When providing examples of other developers doing well, we (well, or at least I
) don't do it as "Well, this developers did well, and Beamdog didn't; so Beamdog sucks!!! lolol"....but as "This developers had successes AND failures on Nintendo platforms (and WiiWare); yet they took it as experience and moved on".Gaijin Games after success of the bit.trip games, could've slammed the service for been too limiting and therefore limiting his "vision" for bit.trip runner 2. What happened? They (he?
) just said that they had a great time, but the sequel required other stuff that wasn't going to be possible on WiiWare and moved on to Xbox Live Arcade and PSN; while saying that he's definitely going to come back for Wii U.Renegade Kid could've slammed the Nintendo DS after the (apparently) lower sales of Dementium II and the disappointing sales of Moon. Both are relatively "mature games" so, they could've also slammed "the Nintendo audience" for been too kiddy. They even talked about that been a reason for not making a sequel to Moon (the lower than expected sales) and that publishers not wanting to take risks on the Nintendo DS because of the "low sales of original titles". Heck, part of the reason the original Mutant Mudds was canceled was because of that too. Yet, they took that as a learning experience and moved on...and still work on Nintendo platforms.
As I said earlier, is not what you said but how you say it. The original Twitters limited only to the sales, payment, certification would've had a different outcome as a thread and probably one with less replies.
It also goes both ways and as noted already "the full interview" wasn't posted until later, so the replies from "people that are in love with Nintendo" were around the original post of "toy" and "Wii Sports"; not defending the size limits, 6k payments, etc.
In general, both Interplay and Beamdog aside of knowing (or at least supposed to knowing) the ins and outs of said service before committing to develop for it, were also responsible for not demoing the game, not showing the game around , not getting the word out and therefore the eventual game's relative disappointing performance. That wasn't Nintendo's fault. When as noted already, only 3 sites reviewed the game (with GamePro been the "biggest one" and the other 2 while great sites been also Nintendo-centered ones. No IGN, Kotaku, Gamespot, etc. those sites didn't even got previews) and between the year the game was announced until release nothing was said and shown about it. When there are even Xbox Live Arcade games that do less than 6k downloads and that's with some more exposure, games has even less exposure on WiiWare (aide the Nintendo emails/PR and the little text under New Releases); so in that way it was expected that the game wasn't going to do well.
Unless it turned out that Nintendo was holding onto codes so they weren't able to share/give to reviewers or that Nintendo promised them other things. That the 40MB limit, 6k requirement for sales sucked and were quite absurd there's that, but that the game performed disappointingly and was ignored by many wasn't Nintendo's fault.
As noted already, things has changed on the digital side of Nintendo (slowly but good on 3DS still kinda unknown on Wii U) and even can be seen by Nintendo giving out AutoDesk tools and Havok to Wii U developers. But replies like this are taken as "defending Nintendo"..for some reason, even when said replies admits that WiiWare sucked in those aspects.
The reason of most of the replies at first was because:
"We don't do Nintendo development,"
"Our previous experience with Nintendo was enough to ensure there will not be another."
Which were quite normal responses, and not surprising. But then he followed with:"Our previous experience with Nintendo was enough to ensure there will not be another."
"My problems with Nintendo are: requiring 6,000 unit sales before payment, a certification process that took us 9 months, and a 40MB limit,"
Which again, wasn't surprising, since the size limits and required sales are a well known problem of the service. The 9-months certification was found weird even by other developers because unless things were really bad, there was no way it would've normally took that long. Then what got the responses you say:Oster went on to call the Wii a toy instead of a console, citing the system's low attach rate. "You buy a Wii, Wii sports and never buy another game," Oster said. "Bad for devs."
That's what got Beamdog "shafted". He didn't "detailed his experience" and "was called childish" because of that. He later on a separate/follow-up interview expanded his point of view and clarified his stance and even wished for the best (to Nintendo). But the reason of most of the replies were because of his toy/etc. original response; when he wasn't even asked about it at first. A person asked about Baldur's Gate on Wii U not WiiWare, he could've just said that he doesn't know how Wii U's DD service will work and they were disappointed with the way WiiWare worked (size limits, payment, certification) and just stop there. Why follow with the other bits of toy and Wii Sports, is what many didn't get and causes "said replies".
Most of the replies were also before the follow-up/edit to the main post too.
Eteric Rice
Member
Nintendo needs to improve their workings with third parties. This isn't really debatable.
They seem to be trying with the 3DS to some extent. Hopefully they keep it up with the Wii U.
They seem to be trying with the 3DS to some extent. Hopefully they keep it up with the Wii U.
I had a long post written up but firefox ate it.
to summarize my point, motion controls are gimmicky and are a hindrance instead of a boon that doesn't innovate how you control a game as much as they bring in people who otherwise wouldn't play games.
Those are the people "gamers" think about when they consider things like the wii a toy, because they believe their games are a higher form of entertainment than "shake wiimote to shake your baby rattle"
I say that as an owner of a wii who isn't interested at all in motion controls. Never was, never will be if it continues in the current casual/poorly handed in hardcore games implementation.
to summarize my point, motion controls are gimmicky and are a hindrance instead of a boon that doesn't innovate how you control a game as much as they bring in people who otherwise wouldn't play games.
Those are the people "gamers" think about when they consider things like the wii a toy, because they believe their games are a higher form of entertainment than "shake wiimote to shake your baby rattle"
I say that as an owner of a wii who isn't interested at all in motion controls. Never was, never will be if it continues in the current casual/poorly handed in hardcore games implementation.
Agent X
Member
I have to disagree. Motion controls are not always gimmicky. They can add greatly to a game if they are implemented properly and appropriately.
Show me one game.
Agent X
Member
It's why I've moved back to the PC, so I can totally ignore that kind of stuff and control it how I think would suit it best.
staticneuron
Member
There is only so much you can do. I mean in one of his responses..
So yes. If you reduce everything to simple logic then it does sound like a piece of cake. All the titles released should be a success, no? But reality is that there was no way they could have foreseen all the issues with working with nintendo beforehand. Of course profit is always an indicator of success, but in a situation where there is no clear lines of communication and you can't even set your own prices versus other services that may allow you to do so, profit may guide the choice to take a leap, but some companies prefer more control and clear information about how their product is getting out.
Renegade Kid did all of this so far, which is why they're a good example of how it's possible to have success on Nintendo platforms both in the physical and digital market.
Team Meat or rather Edmund McMillen in particular is an example of someone who couldn't make it, but didn't act like a spoiled kid. They really wanted Super Meat Boy on WiiWare, it wasn't possible because of size limits, they talked about it, said it was too bad, moved on.
McMillen tried to put The Binding of Isaac on 3DS it didn't get it approved (not a shocker) and he took it like a champ.
I don't see how examples of level-minded and successful small devs who can take success and failures like grown-ups aren't relevant to this discussion. Hell, I can't think of anything more relevant.
I see no problem with the latest statements from Oster though, he comes across as short-sighted, but asides from that he aired his complaints in a reasonable manner. His tweets on the other hand showed the way he thinks, which is more befitting of a random forumite than of someone who's running a business.
The reason I'm typing all this when it's been mostly covered to death is because I'm avoiding studying
His tweets are straight to the point. The limits prevent him from making it flowery or covering it up with some soft glove PR statements. Again like I said before, different metric for success for each company. Pointing out what some devs accept or expect doesn't mean that it should be a blanket solution for all devs involved. If all you can point out is "but these guys".... then it just seems like you are purposely looking for a contrary opinion.
You have a point but the vast majority of these type of "news" blurbs, are taken out of context. Most of the time people are asked questions in interviews, yet the reports we get seem like proclamations made from devs. My understanding , as this was taken from twitter, is that he simply didn't have the ability to get his point across and pretty it up because of the character limitations on twitter.
Any first or third person shooter controls better with the Wii remote and nunchuk than with dual analog. Fact.
No More Heroes and Let's Tap come to mind.
Resident Evil 4 on the Wii was my preferred edition, but I'm not sure where the rest of the world stands on that. Sin and Punishment and Metroid Prime were way better with the Wiimote too, but those are more pointer than motion. Skyward Sword also clicked with me but that varies from person to person.
Stuff like DKC was absolutely hindered by using motion for motions sake, but there are some cool implementations out there.
Yeah, it's less bad than a terrible control scheme. Not such a great achievement in my opinion.
As for the "one game": Kororinpa. It justifies the existence of the Wiimote.
FieryBalrog
Member
Motion control is just one of many options right now. It's failed in comparison to the expectations people built up around it, and in many Wii games it was basically forced in because they had to use the console's theoretical selling point. More of an annoyance than anything else.
Also, very few of the biggest selling franchises in gaming right now are using any sort of motion controls. The iOS/android universe obviously are built on touch instead. PC is still going with M/KB, hasn't stopped League of Legends from exploding and a galaxy of other games from trucking on. Consoles, apart from a select few Kinect games and a few perennial Wii games, motion controls are irrelevant.
Glass Rebel
Member
I think the best use of the pointer was still Sin & Punishment 2 because of the fixed view.
Been playing Skyward Sword, its great at that too.
There are many good uses of the pointer. I was going for Kororinpa since it's a rare example of a good use for the original Wii (non-pointer) motion controls.
Glass Rebel
Member
Team Filler
Member
InfiniDragon
Member
What he said. Dual analog for shooters is rubbish, I seriously don't know how people say shooters control better with those things instead of a keyboard/mouse or pointer controls.
Clearly motion controls are irrelevant. I mean it's not like every platform manufacturer doesn't have their own forays into the tech and will be continuing them and building further upon them next gen by spending hundreds of millions in R&D improving the tech. Oh, and including them in the boxes won't happen either.
As I've always said, Mouse >>>>> Wiimote IR >>>>>> Move/WM+ Gyro Pointer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *insert 10 pages* >>> Dual analog.
It's infuriating to me how gamers are so rigid in their ways. The Wiimote/Move/etc model split controller should be the default for everyone next gen. More comfortable, more functional (add a few more buttons to the wiimote+nunchuk and you've got a proper amount for ports) and far more accurate.
I can see how people don't want to use a keyboard and mouse on their "comfy couch" (even though I bought a lapboard to do so with my PC gaming) but here we have 2 controllers that bring close-to-mouse-like functionality and hardcore gamers/gaming press alike were "waaah waaahh waggle is for babbies!". Most sports games even play better with "babby waggle", and there were some fantastic tilt-based gaming examples as well.
I don't ever remember a period in time where gamers were so resistant to positive developments aside from, maybe, going to the NES d-pad from the 2600 joysticks. Sure there are terrible implementations of all of this motion tech, even by the respective platform holders. But there are plenty of examples of poor control schemes with dual-analog even 3 generations into its maturity as well (did they fix that awful lag in UC3?). It just... baffles me gamers are like this. You'd figure we were a bit more open minded and accepting of stuff like infrared pointers that genuinely improves gaming. Going back to dual-analog is an impossible regression, for me, in this regard - and I will not be purchasing any first or third person titles on any console that has dual-analog as its only control choice.
FieryBalrog
Member
Fuck no. I don't want every random adjustment of my arm to cause my cursor to wobble around. It's not a mouse, it can't rest against a surface. It's not nearly as comfortable as a gamepad.
He didn't say it had to be motion or pointer. The split controller is way more comfortable since you can orient your hands however you want.
Edit: Also you can totally rest the wiimote or move controller on a surface. You're moving your wrist not your entire arm.
Why do you have C6H5-NH- in your avatar?
Exactly! I'm amazed at how much misunderstanding/misrepresentation of this aspect of motion controllers is still going on.
Zoramon089
Banned
Considering none of that is relevant or still the case since the 3ds...no
I played all shooters on Wii with my arm on my knee, resting comfortable, with arm movements. I wasn't hiding behind my couch and pew pew-ing at my TV like in the Red Steel ads. Though I guess you could do that if you wanted to.
Some lightgun games (which are now possible on consoles without purchasing expensive 3rd party hardware, btw - thanks to the "babbie waggle") did allow you to calibrate the IR to your screen size and do cursor-free point-and-shoot like in the arcades as well.
It was wonderful. And yet here I am, staring at the nearly inevitable prospect of 2 or 3 dual-analog tablet controllers for next gen instead of a continuation of the far more comfortable and versatile split setup from Sony and Nintendo.
But we both know Wii motes are still an option to developers for the Wii U. They just need to be competent enough to add ir to their games.
Red Steel 2
If it's not in the box, it's as good as dead to most developers. See: Move
It's nonsense, actually. More third party games were sold on Nintendo platforms this generation than on either of their competitors' platforms. These include ~200 million sellers so it's not like it's only a few huge games that do well either.
The mistake people make when looking at Nintendo's dominance of the top seller lists and concluding from that that third parties can't catch a break is the failure to realize that those Nintendo games would dominate the top seller lists of any system. For example, 20 million copies would be enough to claim #1 on both 360 and PS3 while on Wii it won't even get you into the top 5.
Okay so like 3 games out of thousands use proper motion controls.
How is that not gimmicky? I applaud them wanting to push development in new fashions, but when most motion controls in wii or 360 or ps3 are hamfisted (looking at you Killzone 3) for the sake of having motion controls, it's easy to see why someone can look at the wii and think it's a toy.
Anyways I don't really see the problem in writing off something because you had a bad experience with it.
How is that not gimmicky? I applaud them wanting to push development in new fashions, but when most motion controls in wii or 360 or ps3 are hamfisted (looking at you Killzone 3) for the sake of having motion controls, it's easy to see why someone can look at the wii and think it's a toy.
Anyways I don't really see the problem in writing off something because you had a bad experience with it.
A) All consoles are toys
B) There are a lot more than a few games that use motion control properly.
Hell, a launch window game on Wii (Godfather: Blackhand Edition) made playing other third person/open world games a severe downgrade by how well done and visceral its controls were. Buy it and give it a shot.
Yeah, and most games rated M are actually for adults and not tweens.
they're toys - regardless - for children of all ages