The article was about the challenge of attracting developers. No doubt that sales is a factor but the conversation always devolves to only sales.
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Gamasutra: PlayStation Vita's biggest challenge: Convincing developers
- Thread starter Vic
- Start date
The article was about the challenge of attracting developers. No doubt that sales is a factor but the conversation always devolves to only sales.
metalslimer
Member
What other factor is there for a 3rd party?
frankie_baby
Member
To be honest thats not clear, saying it won't lose them money day one is not clearly saying if the hardware is profitable or not
snowdog1971
Banned
It has nothing to do with convincing developers, they need to convince publishers. They're the ones that hold the purse strings after all.
When game studios are perpetually one game away from going out of business, sales are the only factor.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
People are way to hard on the Vita, it's had a good selection of games and more to come with PS Mobile, it's just a sign of the times, if it wasn't for Mario Nintendo would probably be in the same situation with the 3DS, both my younger brothers say that all their friends care about is iTouch and smart phones, not any of their friends own a 3DS/Vita, NON OF THEM, times are changing, I'm really not sure what Sony could of done to make the Vita a 'raving' success tbh.
Long term viability - hardware manufacturer commitment. Ability for microtransactions or other means of revenue (as a publisher). Create on new innovation (as dev). Just some ..
BoilersFan23
Member
There's a difference between console and handheld. The big developers they own WANT to develop for the new/powerful consoles, while most just don't care about working on the handhelds. They'll do fine for PS4.
I'll put it this way, if it was up to SCEA/SCEE, there's no way they'd have Vita made. They know about the competition in the west with cell phones/tablets and PSP struggling to sell despite a re-launch of it (giving it a bunch of new games). I honestly feel SCEA does not give it a lot of support because they feel their money is best invested in consoles (which people support and buy). 3DS hasn't done all that great in the west (it helps that it can still appeal to the younger kids market who cannot have a cell phone or tablet). I expect future Nintendo handhelds to sell less in the west.
Since PSP did very well in Japan after a while, that is why SCEJ created Vita. They wanted to hopefully get the same sales out west they got in Japan, but I feel it was a big mistake for them. They should have just geared it strictly for Japan, and allow SCEA/SCEE to release it stateside, but just let it be a niche platform selling at a few retailers (where it's mostly a platform for the very hardcore with niche games from Japan on it).
Which is entirely a function of sales.
That's pretty much ubiquitous these days.
Huh?
DiscoJer
Member
Are you referring to Capcom?
If they're one game away from going out of business, the Vita is not on their radar and risk is still risk independent of platform. Sure sales are a factor, I never said it wasn't.
I'm referring to practically everyone. These developers tend to lean on handhelds because they consider them safer bets, but that's not so true on Vita when there are only like 2.3 million of them out there.
metalslimer
Member
But Nintendo does have Mario which is why they can keep making handhelds. The market for another competitor without that (or Pokemon) has evaporated into the smartphone market and even Nintendo is being hit by it. The truth is if they actually planned on making money they should have released a much weaker system that could be sold at 150 and released it a year earlier in Japan. Japan is the market of the dedicated handheld, and Sony messed up in every way possible there
The point was in reference to what other factors outside sales does a publisher look at?
It'll be alot more relevant in future systems ... It's not going anywhere, Unfortunetly.
Reference to Kamiya saying he's a creator and not a businessman. Guys like Kamiya will always strive for new gameplay mechanics on new hardware. Hope he does it for the Vita, personally.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
And good for Nintendo, but I don't see why Sony should 'give up' making handhelds just because they are not as successful as Nintendo, I really think we should taper in our expectations a little, in terms of sales least, I've said this so many times on here already but I'll say it again, I don't think there is anything wrong with the PS Vita existing as a product for a niche audience as long as it's cost effective which I imagine it will be eventually, it uses 'off the shelf' components, I doubt the R&D was as much as many people imagine on here, Sony will continue to support it, it's easy to port to, PS Mobile hasn't even launched yet but is soon with 30 games, PS+ for Vita hasn't even began yet, again, coming in a few weeks, and system has a lot of games, whether their your cup of tea though is another matter.
End of the day I want the Vita to exist as a product, and it is a unique product, it is the only handheld on the market with proper controls, we cried out for a system with dual 'nubs' and Sony gave us actual dual analogue sticks on a handheld, I still find that amazing, the best display, touch screen, all retail software also available day one on PSN Store, success or not nobody has achieved that, they are doing right in my books, this is what I want, I don't ever think the system is going to be a massive seller but I think things will improve.
Think about this, the system has only been available in the west for 6 months, actually say that out loud, 6 months, seriously, many of our are expectations for that given time frame are just ludicrous imo.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
metalslimer
Member
You can temper your expectations all you want and Vita sales are still a disaster. Sony shouldn't stop making handhelds because they aren't successful as Nintendo. The PSP was a profitable venture. If I thought Vita would sell 1/3 as well as PSP I would say it was worth it. As for things improving, the software situation actually seems to have gotten worse compared to the massive amount of announcements Vita got at announcement to now it's basically surviving on the occasional niche game.
Father_Brain
Banned
errrr...hemmm... Excuse me while I get on my soapbox...
I am a low tier Vita Defense and Proselization Force Member. Take that fwiw. I also equally appreciate the 3DS. IMO, neither hardware is superior as each has its strengths and design weaknesses.
I have been using my Vita as a gaming machine and equal parts as anime player. I have used it quite a bit for surfing the web and YouTube. It works well for those functions. From my perspective, I would like Sony to envision and develop the Vita as a gaming-centric portable tablet. I would like more and refined apps that perform helpful life functions: newsreader apps, educational apps, a variety of web browsers, $0.99 trash games like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope, that ilk. Mindless, low production 2 minute games to keep the kids occupied at the doctor's office. That said, I would like Sony to facilitate niche games to all markets, especially RPGs, much like the PS1 did. I dream of a Konami 5 to jumpstart the Vita. I don't play very many western games, so I don't really see the need to cowtow to the AssCreed/CoD/GTA crowd. They aren't handheld gamers anyway and probably never will be. Why chase unwilling suitors? Make the Vita for gamers with more refined and developed tastes. ;p A handheld GameCube, as it were.
The reality is that the Vita is on life support, market-share and mind-share wise. I can see where people would be down on the machine. Obviously, the Vita doesn't have Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, etc. that can sell the machine all over. The price of the machine is too high for all but the handheld and/or Sony gaming devotee. The cost of memory cards is atrocious. Hey Sony, how about a 128 GB cloud account for $25 per year? The price of games is too high. The cost of TV shows and movies is too high. If Sony wants to steal some of Apple's thunder they will need to adjust pricing. I don't see the Vita taking market share away from the 3DS. Nintendo knows handhelds. They have the software horses to propel a system in the face of the iOS/Android storm. Sony needs to carve the area between Nintendo and the iOS/Android crowds. Blue ocean. Money to be made. Games to gamers that they don't/can't get elsewhere.
gets off soapbox. Sorry about my much longer than usual post.
I am a low tier Vita Defense and Proselization Force Member. Take that fwiw. I also equally appreciate the 3DS. IMO, neither hardware is superior as each has its strengths and design weaknesses.
I have been using my Vita as a gaming machine and equal parts as anime player. I have used it quite a bit for surfing the web and YouTube. It works well for those functions. From my perspective, I would like Sony to envision and develop the Vita as a gaming-centric portable tablet. I would like more and refined apps that perform helpful life functions: newsreader apps, educational apps, a variety of web browsers, $0.99 trash games like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope, that ilk. Mindless, low production 2 minute games to keep the kids occupied at the doctor's office. That said, I would like Sony to facilitate niche games to all markets, especially RPGs, much like the PS1 did. I dream of a Konami 5 to jumpstart the Vita. I don't play very many western games, so I don't really see the need to cowtow to the AssCreed/CoD/GTA crowd. They aren't handheld gamers anyway and probably never will be. Why chase unwilling suitors? Make the Vita for gamers with more refined and developed tastes. ;p A handheld GameCube, as it were.
The reality is that the Vita is on life support, market-share and mind-share wise. I can see where people would be down on the machine. Obviously, the Vita doesn't have Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, etc. that can sell the machine all over. The price of the machine is too high for all but the handheld and/or Sony gaming devotee. The cost of memory cards is atrocious. Hey Sony, how about a 128 GB cloud account for $25 per year? The price of games is too high. The cost of TV shows and movies is too high. If Sony wants to steal some of Apple's thunder they will need to adjust pricing. I don't see the Vita taking market share away from the 3DS. Nintendo knows handhelds. They have the software horses to propel a system in the face of the iOS/Android storm. Sony needs to carve the area between Nintendo and the iOS/Android crowds. Blue ocean. Money to be made. Games to gamers that they don't/can't get elsewhere.
gets off soapbox. Sorry about my much longer than usual post.
I think the long list of Vita problems could be condensed down to two major problems:
1) Sony is no longer in the financial situation they once were. If Sony were willing to subsidize the Vita with a 5 billion dollar investment the way they were with the PS3, I'm quite sure its fortunes would significantly improve.
2) Sony is no longer the de facto king of the gaming empire. In the past, they got games like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto as exclusives -- not spinoffs, mind you, but real mainline franchise games -- and have these lined up before their systems even launched. That was true of the PS2, PS3, and even to an extent the PSP, which had significantly more enthusiastic support early on than it did as it slowly trailed off in the west. This assumption of Sony dominance is now gone, and they do not get this de facto support any longer. They have to earn it.
If those two things weren't true, I have no doubt that the Vita would be in a much, much better position than it is now. A 150 Dollar Vita with an MGS, FF, and GTA would be selling way better.
1) Sony is no longer in the financial situation they once were. If Sony were willing to subsidize the Vita with a 5 billion dollar investment the way they were with the PS3, I'm quite sure its fortunes would significantly improve.
2) Sony is no longer the de facto king of the gaming empire. In the past, they got games like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto as exclusives -- not spinoffs, mind you, but real mainline franchise games -- and have these lined up before their systems even launched. That was true of the PS2, PS3, and even to an extent the PSP, which had significantly more enthusiastic support early on than it did as it slowly trailed off in the west. This assumption of Sony dominance is now gone, and they do not get this de facto support any longer. They have to earn it.
If those two things weren't true, I have no doubt that the Vita would be in a much, much better position than it is now. A 150 Dollar Vita with an MGS, FF, and GTA would be selling way better.
Late down-ports are pretty much the exact opposite of what the system needs.
Why in the world would anyone buy BL2 for Vita after it has already come out for consoles? Especially for a multiplayer game where you want to ride the wave that makes almost zero sense.
Right now the Vita is basically a port machine, the last thing it needs is more ports. Sure, I suppose there's no active harm in having more ports, but that is not going to move systems compared to original content.
Right now I look at Vita and I see Gravity Daze/Rush. That's it - one game. As far as I am concerned that is basically the Vita library, and I'm not going to buy a system for one game. Everything else (that I'm aware of) has a superior version available elsewhere. I really want to like the Vita because of the hardware but I need at least a few exclusive games worth a damn.
3) IOS.
Even if Sony did everything right, they'd still only be sharing the shrinking dedicated market with 3DS.
metalslimer
Member
In Japan yes, I have my doubts however whether west at this point would care.
Supposedly LBP is the best in the series
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
Sony have recently said that the sales of the Vita are within their expectations in most regions and a little lower in others, whether you believe them or not that is straight from the horses mouth, I love how we have so many people on here deciding for Sony that their product is a disaster in terms of sales, only Sony knows the answer to that one, we just know how to compare it's sales to previous systems or competitors and use that as a basis for success or failure.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
The Playstation name brings certain expectations.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
What, do you expect a company to say Oh it's doing fantastic to their investors? Nevermind the fact that they've already cut their expectations already, they don't even look like they'll make the one they've set out after the cut.
I mean if you really expect your system to sell worse than a DC, why even make it?
metalslimer
Member
Within expectations shows someone in Sony is straight up lying. Yoshida straight up told people he expected the initial shipment of 3G models in Japan to sell fast and expected much more out of the Vita than it initally did. Nintendo could come out and say that if the 3DS was selling like 15k a week they would be happy but there isn't a chance in hell I'd believe them.
Edit: Screw that, Sony released their own expectations earlier in the year and Vita isn't even close to meeting those expectatons. Hell it probably won't meet half so the narrative that Sony doesn't care how badly Vita is selling is made up.
The problem with this is that they've already had to slash their expectations for the fiscal year once, and their total worldwide Vita sales are not currently sufficient to carry them to anywhere near their reduced sales expectations. This is incompatible with the system selling at or slightly lower than expectations.
Sony can lie about sales meeting expectations in interviews, they can't lie about their sales projections to their investors. The reality is that they're falling short of those projections by quite a bit.
How about or not? Did you miss their laughable sales expectations for 2012 which are going to have to be revised to hell and back again?
They predicted to sell 10 million this fiscal year. Straight from the horses mouth.
http://www.gameplox.com/2012/05/10/vita-10-million/
There's no way in hell Sony expected the Vita to flounder the way it has. Even as cocky as they are with PR, they are still admitting they are surprised by things as lack of support. Shocking for a company with Sony's history to even admit that much.
Quite honestly, Sony no longer has the money or the clout to compete in the home and handheld market. It seems like a cruel thing to have to throw in towel, but sometimes you have to sacrifice a limb to survive. Between the home and handheld market, I think we all know which one that should be.
H_Prestige
Banned
Not going to mean anything, since the important japanese developers are the same ones that are big in the west. Do you have any reason to believe the next gen final fantasy, metal gear, kingdom hearts, resident evil, etc. are being prepared for the wii u and not the next gen ps4 and xbox?
I can see smaller scale wii u exclusives here and there, but heck, even the 360 gets some of those.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
I've said this before, The Vita is a blip on their radar with regards to the money they are bleeding from their TV division which is billions, sometimes I think people forget how big Sony really is and how much money they have invested in other products, Sony sold 34 million phones last year for example, and we're on here arguing over the few million that the Vita 'may' sell, they have millions upon millions invested it their camera division, audio division, tablet division etc, the vita is just one product using off the self components.
Sony's gaming division posted losses last fiscal quarter and it's supposed to one of the divisions they're going to rely on most after their restructuring plan going into the future. They banked pretty heavily on Vita to succeed.
People very much do forget how big Sony is
Have some graphics, for anyone curious:
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Sony_(SNE)/Data/Revenue/2011
Not to say they're doing amazingly well with all of their decisions by any stretch of the imagination, but they're a big, big company.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
Trust me your placing way too much emphasis on the 'Vita' as an important revenue stream for Sony, Playstation as a division is important but the Vita as a product is small fish compared to the importance of some of Sony's smartphones and revenue streams gained from other products, Sony expect a lot from their 'renewed' Xperia brand which is why they are now using it on their new tablets.
CosmicQueso
Member
Guys, guys. The whole exclusive versus port question is a catch 22.
The only titles that can make money for third parties are ports. The dev costs have already been allocated to other platforms so it's cheap to port to Vita. Which it needs to be because the sales of Vita titles aren't high enough to fund exclusive games.
Exclusive games are needed to sell the hardware. Uncharted sold a good number of units. And... that's been it. Gravity Rush is only for the core, there's nothing there that's going to get the mass. LBP Vita is a fantastic game, and not a port, but it's too early to tell how successful that's been at moving hardware.
So they are betting big on COD. But we all kinda know already that this won't be the cure all.
Therefore it goes back to Sony. But what can they put there as an exclusive? God of War? Fat chance, they've gotta be saving that for the next gen. Ratchet? Nope. Sly? Port. They've already given Uncharted and LBP a go. So what's left?
Ugh.
Their only option is price.
The only titles that can make money for third parties are ports. The dev costs have already been allocated to other platforms so it's cheap to port to Vita. Which it needs to be because the sales of Vita titles aren't high enough to fund exclusive games.
Exclusive games are needed to sell the hardware. Uncharted sold a good number of units. And... that's been it. Gravity Rush is only for the core, there's nothing there that's going to get the mass. LBP Vita is a fantastic game, and not a port, but it's too early to tell how successful that's been at moving hardware.
So they are betting big on COD. But we all kinda know already that this won't be the cure all.
Therefore it goes back to Sony. But what can they put there as an exclusive? God of War? Fat chance, they've gotta be saving that for the next gen. Ratchet? Nope. Sly? Port. They've already given Uncharted and LBP a go. So what's left?
Ugh.
Their only option is price.
I think series where Japan still provides a healthy share of sales multi platform with all 3 consoles will be somewhat standard.
UberTag
Member
Without moneyhatting for third-party exclusives, you're exactly right.
Then again, Sony hasn't shown a willingness to cut price either.
As best as I can tell, Sony is taking a long haul approach to the Vita where it will remain on life support getting a modicum of support for the next couple years until Sony decides to pump some first-party development into it or... what's more likely... to integrate it as a control device for the PS4 to facilitate Wii U-style multi-screen ports and homegrown efforts.
That does seem to be the most logical approach all things considered.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
They lowered their sales projections. Obviously it is not selling like they thought.
Sorry, what was that? I couldn't read that, my vision was obstructed by the 3DS game library.
The problem is simple and anyone could have seen it coming: Sony doesn't know how to fight for content. AT ALL. The PS3 did as well as it did because of the games that were in production long before the system's price announcement and because of its proximity to the 360 making it ready for ports (and no one can deny that most of those ports come with HEAVY drawbacks that are only SOMETIMES fixed). They had a breakout success with the original PlayStation and have been mostly on auto-pilot ever since, letting 3rd parties do all the hard work of selling their product for them. So now they have to struggle and just... CAN'T, because they were never shown how to. Nintendo had to learn this lesson the hard way and Microsoft had to learn this lesson right from the get-go. It's a shame that Sony might not learn this lesson before the gaming division becomes a total financial liability.
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
It's not always that simple, Sony is a public company don't forget which complicates matters when discussing initial sales expectations for a new product.
Games make the systems. Saying its the best handheld game system ever (not counting the poor library) is just kooky talk
This is priceless. Within their expectations, and yet it's nowhere near where it needs to be to hit Sony's projections.
What are you even getting at? Are you saying they were lying about their initial projections, and they secretly knew it would sell horribly? So their announcement that sales were "within their expectations" was an acknowledgment that they had lied to their stockholders?
They should have just sold two different skus
One regular sku
and one phone sku that was subsidized through wireless contracts.
Both have android running in the background and can boot any android game.
Then they would have a huge backlog of cheap android games, PSP, PS1, and new Vita games.
How come big companies can't see things that are so obvious to us sometimes?
I still think the Vita has a chance, everyone was saying that the 3DS was dead before the price drop. Just let it get through its first year and see how its doing before foretelling its doom.
I think they are more referring to the screen, the specs, and the controls. And I can't really argue with them on that front. The vita is a beautiful piece of hardware. With that said, I think the touch controls on the back are a pointless gimmick, probably the only knock on the system I can think of from a hardware standpoint.
One regular sku
and one phone sku that was subsidized through wireless contracts.
Both have android running in the background and can boot any android game.
Then they would have a huge backlog of cheap android games, PSP, PS1, and new Vita games.
How come big companies can't see things that are so obvious to us sometimes?
I still think the Vita has a chance, everyone was saying that the 3DS was dead before the price drop. Just let it get through its first year and see how its doing before foretelling its doom.
I think they are more referring to the screen, the specs, and the controls. And I can't really argue with them on that front. The vita is a beautiful piece of hardware. With that said, I think the touch controls on the back are a pointless gimmick, probably the only knock on the system I can think of from a hardware standpoint.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Sure is lining us folks for a Vita, yesserie.
Read the topic and think back to your post afterwards.
If only that was close of being true.
What? FFXIII is coming to Vita? And what happened to FFX Vita?
lowrider007
Licorice-flavoured booze?
I do believe they exaggerated yes, it's quite a common practice within a public company to try to appease shareholders, I think it's under what Sony expected but not by as much as many on here believe, end of the day we can not know for sure, those figures are not really for the likes of us and there is a lot politics behind the scenes that we don't get to see, as 'regular' folk I just think we place far to much emphasise on sales when we should just be enjoying the product, it's like having a hardcore discussion about the weather, there's not a lot we can do about it, the Vita is what it is and Sony can easily afford to keep it afloat regardless of its popularity, like I said it's blip compared to some of their other products and revenue streams.
MikeE21286
Member
The only thing that could make Vita competitive in Japan is Monster Hunter, and that's not coming.
Size really doesn't matter though, ask Nintendo.
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