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PS4 Rumors , APU code named 'Liverpool' Radeon HD 7970 GPU Steamroller CPU 16GB Flash

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T

thuway

Member
i-Lo said:
All this RAM talk can't negate the fact that PS4 is fucked no matter which way you cut it. PS3 pretty much showed that devs would rather have an unified pool of slower RAM as opposed to a divided (reduced) capacity with uneven speeds. MS looks to be playing their cards right so far with XB3. Makes me wonder if the third party devs would look upon favourably on PS3 in light of what MS is doing or has PS4 already dropped the ball...

It's too early to tell all right but 2GB (minus X amount of MB for OS) is looking minuscule compared to XB3's 4-6GB of available RAM for game development.

I have always slightly been partial to Playstation brand because of exclusivity but if they put their foot wrong this time, I wonder if the market will forgive them.
Click to expand...

wtf+is+this+shit+_e15960429e2ef92fcdbc2faa7352d5fa.gif



This is the point in time where I lose faith in any thing you post. You need to let go of this RAM issue. If you seriously believe Sony is daft enough to overlook such a "simple" issue than you have lost the plot.


Sony's first party, third party devs, and the internal engineers have all had tons of input on the PS4. With all that said, the system STILL is in a rather unfinished state. My personal contact has told me, things are very much unfinished and targets are still being thrown around. He knows NOTHING else. It is way behind completion as compared to the Next Box. Most of us know next to nothing about it.

Kaz is betting the company line on the PS4, he will not push out something that hardcore gamers deject. You are the same person who is against Sony charging for online, but will more than happily buy the Next Xbox because it is "rumoured" to have more RAM. It sounds like you made up your mind a long time ago.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
Globox_82 said:
man seriously stop being such a drama queen. we know NOTHING, have faith in sony. they have earned it. more then anyone imo
Click to expand...

Lay down the red carpet for me, son.

Would you really say we know nothing? Or are they the things we just don't want to accept? Aren't Sony's own 1st parties asking for more RAM?

While I completely agree that Sony has earned back its good graces for most part with PSN plus, awesome first party games, and free PSN, the cynical and pragmatic market will drop PS4 like a hot potato if they screw up.

I mean honestly, have we forgotten how screwed up things were EA's first generation of sports titles this gen ran at 30fps as opposed to 60fps on XB360? What about Bayonetta with the same issue? Or the greater aliasing and blurrier textures in games? And what about the fact that the majority of the games that are compared by Digital Foundry are better on 360 when it comes to frame rate consistency? And in the latest fiasco, how about BetaShed's outrageously pathetic attempt to port Skyrim and now saying the DLC is only a dream? All this even after the fact that 1st parties can pull off games like Uncharted and GoW on the same hardware. It goes to show the third parties are the bread and butter of a console's success and proliferation and if Rumours are true, MS is doing what the third parties want them to. But what about Sony? Last I checked the response wasn't as positive.

Like yourself, I'd like to see PS4 succeed; I think everyone in this thread does. But they should be criticised and their position in the market should be analysed to see how precarious it would be for them to launch PS4 with the currently rumoured specs.


thuway said:
Kaz is betting the company line on the PS4, he will not push out something that hardcore gamers deject. You are the same person who is against Sony charging for online, but will more than happily buy the Next Xbox because it is "rumoured" to have more RAM. It sounds like you made up your mind a long time ago.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I will NOT pay for online. I made that mistake twice with 360. Also, I prefer trophies to achievements. And my argument for Sony to keep PSN free has more credence than your counterpoint.
 
T

thuway

Member
Billiechu said:
*looks at her Vita and cries*
Click to expand...

You just got Little Big Planet Vita, Gravity Daze, an original Stardust HD, Uncharted and an awesome port of Sound Shapes.

At the end of next month you'll have Assasin's Creed Liberation, Persona 4, Ragnarok Oddysey, Ys 7, and PlayStation All-Stars.

Go buy some games mang.
 
G

Globox_82

Banned
thuway said:
wtf+is+this+shit+_e15960429e2ef92fcdbc2faa7352d5fa.gif


nothing about it.

Kaz is betting the company line on the PS4, he will not push out something that hardcore gamers deject. You are the same person who is against Sony charging for online, but will more than happily buy the Next Xbox because it is "rumoured" to have more RAM. It sounds like you made up your mind a long time ago.
Click to expand...

0 boy do i wish sony began charging from nex gen online. just cus of spoileted ppl like u mentioned
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
i-Lo said:
All this RAM talk can't negate the fact that PS4 is fucked no matter which way you cut it. PS3 pretty much showed that devs would rather have an unified pool of slower RAM as opposed to a divided (reduced) capacity with uneven speeds. MS looks to be playing their cards right so far with XB3. Makes me wonder if the third party devs would look upon favourably on PS3 in light of what MS is doing or has PS4 already dropped the ball...

It's too early to tell all right but 2GB (minus X amount of MB for OS) is looking minuscule compared to XB3's 4-6GB of available RAM for game development.

I have always slightly been partial to Playstation brand because of exclusivity of 1st party games. But if they put their foot wrong this time, I wonder if the market will forgive them.
Click to expand...

You say MS is playing there cards right but from what we know they are not going with a unified pool like 360 .
Also s we don't know what ram type MS using or if devs would rather 4 GB GDDR5 than 6 GB of slower ram .
 
I

i-Lo

Member
Globox_82 said:
0 boy do i wish sony began charging from nex gen online. just cus of spoileted ppl like u mentioned
Click to expand...

You know better than to type stuff like that Globox. Free means no barrier to entry. Everyone loves free stuff. Sony's PSN plus deals have been real killers for generating revenue. I have already said that next gen, we'll see a greater proliferation of F2P games and Sony has been lauded by many small time and even greater devs as great to work with and one who provides great scope for growth.

Which do you think would be more profitable in the long run?

1. Create a barrier to entry and deny a certain percentage of people from accessing F2P stuff that may end up generating large revenue through micro transactions over time or

2. Keep it free, highlight it as a feature, hammer it into the consciousness along with the fact the PSN plus is so much more worth than its competitor due to killer deals and above all, everyone has access to everything.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
jeff_rigby said:
GDDR5 is going to get expensive during the life of the PS4 and Xbox 720. IT runs too hot and takes too much drive from a Memory controller in a SoC. It is not a viable choice.
Click to expand...

So are you now telling us that Sony has shelved the idea of 2GB GDDR5 altogether for PS4 and moved to say... DDR4?
 
T

thuway

Member
i-Lo said:
So are you now telling us that Sony has shelved the idea of 2GB GDDR5 altogether for PS4 and moved to say... DDR4?
Click to expand...

This news might have just delayed both PS4 and Xbox 720. 3D memory will become more important than ever if this news holds true.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
i-Lo said:
So are you now telling us that Sony has shelved the idea of 2GB GDDR5 altogether for PS4 and moved to say... DDR4?
Click to expand...
We have multiple "rumor" cites that this is the case.

From 4 pages ago:

from Beyond 3D Acert93

Per DDR4, three big advantages:

(a) less voltage swing = (less current and less heat in the SoC)
(b) it is the future and will cost reduce quickly (current DDR modules may be hard to get, and expensive, in later years of the consoles)
(c) it can potentially be stacked which could help future console size / complexity reductions

No memory is ideal, including DDR4, but it may scratch the itching points console makers are most concerned about.
Click to expand...

GDDR5 is HOT and expensive and once you choose a memory type you are stuck with it till a major refresh/redesign. It is VERY unlikely that GDDR5 will be used.

Looking at one "Leak" it's Low Drive Power (Less Drive voltage so less heat in SoC) DDR3 changed to DDR4 which is also low drive power (estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)

NEVER any mention of GDDR5...this comes from, Alpha developer platforms obviously and looking at PC GPU cards.

The Jaguar SoC for both consoles will not be the same as the Jaguar SoC for consumers.
AMD Jaguar vs Sony/Microsoft Jaguar
H1 2013 vs H1 2014
LP-DDR3/DDR3 vs DDR4(estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)
For x86 consumer markets vs specialized versions tweaked for each company
HSA 3/4ths vs HSA Complete
Click to expand...

LP-DDR3 is slower than DDR3 and the papers I have read are using it in SoCs in ultra-wide configurations (stacked) where a wide buss makes up for slower RAM. Same most likely for DDR4. Clock speed tells us nothing about transfer speed if ultra-wide stacked.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
thuway said:
This news might have just delayed both PS4 and Xbox 720. 3D memory will become more important than ever if this news holds true.
Click to expand...

Wasn't StevieP telling us that 3D stacked memory is fantasy?

Also, how big of a reality is HMC for next gen? It may be safe (or unsafe) to assume if XB3 uses it then so might PS4. The amazing power saving should make the console have around 200W TDP even with a powerful GPU.
 
T

thuway

Member
i-Lo said:
Wasn't StevieP telling us that 3D stacked memory is fantasy?

Also, how big of a reality is HMC for next gen? It may be safe (or unsafe) to assume if XB3 uses it then so might PS4. The amazing power saving should make the console have around 200W TDP even with a powerful GPU.
Click to expand...

3D stacked memory is the only way we'll get any where near the performance of GDDR5 with DDR4.
 
S

Stephen Colbert

Banned
You guys are missing the point.

Yes, when Kinect is being utilized (Kinect based games), a lot of the ram will be devoted to it and rest of the game will have to make do with only 4gbs of ram or so.

But for typical dudebro games that don't make use of Kinect at all, those games will have access to all that ram that would otherwise be going to Kinect.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
i-Lo said:
Wasn't StevieP telling us that 3D stacked memory is fantasy?

Also, how big of a reality is HMC for next gen? It may be safe (or unsafe) to assume if XB3 uses it then so might PS4. The amazing power saving should make the console have around 200W TDP even with a powerful GPU.
Click to expand...
I don't know about SteveP but I got a lot of flak when I proposed it and 3D stacking in SoCs as how next generation would be possible at a reasonable price.

Next generation Game Console Technology & PC & Handheld & Super Computer:

1) Fusion HSA and Fabric memory Model Scales from Handheld to Super computer Provides efficiencies to reduce heat and increase performance. (includes OpenCL)
2) Third generation 3D stacking making SOCs affordable (SOCs provide more efficiencies = to two die shrinks, reduce time to market) and here 2012-2013.
3) 3D wafer stacked memory will be ready for Game Consoles 2013-2014 Provides even more efficiencies when inside the SOC. Page 23
4) Comprehensive look for faster memory technologies and when they would be ready
5) Early draft of the Xbox 720 & Xbox360 marketing and design (from 2010)
Combine all the above and Next generation Game consoles are possible. It must have the performance of a next generation console and fit in the power envelope as well as be affordable. Many consider this an impossible task. Not discussed is the CPU type or version of GPU.

Cites:

Sony CTO interview on Playstation tech
Article on PS4 leaks parallels Sony CTO interview but adds AMD Fusion
Game Console SOCs shown using 3D stacked/ultrawide with TSVs memory (faster, eventually cheaper & energy efficient) and 3D ultra wide I/O memory
AMD planning 5 years for 3D stacking but not mentioning it.
Video on Fusion by AMD
Heterogeneous computing here now.

Cell vision is like HSA + Fabric computing & very attractive to Sony. Everything in the Sony CTO interview about future Playstation tech has been touched on in the above cites. My opinion is the Cell design was an early attempt at this and much has been developed since. Early Cell is not compatible with current open source HSA & Fabric computing memory model, for this reason we will not see Cell but might see SPUs in some form.
 
T

thuway

Member
jeff_rigby said:
I don't know about SteveP but I got a lot of flak when I proposed it and 3D stacking in SoCs as how next generation would be possible at a reasonable price.
Click to expand...

If the Samsung news is true, I don't see any way around using a unified DDR4 bank. The most exciting news though is both companies might opt for more RAM since it will be cheaper and require less heat :D.
 
O

Osiris

I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
That Samsung/GDDR5 rumor was posted back in May (Look at the date), so if it caused any changes in plan, they changed long ago :p
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
onQ123 said:
Intel to do away with DRAM in PCs

all pointing to the Memory becoming part of the Process of the Chips. TSV 3D stacked.
Click to expand...
Again, good find <grin>. I assumed this was the case and the "Leak" below implies this:

H1 2013 vs H1 2014
LP-DDR3/DDR3 vs DDR4(estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)
For x86 consumer markets vs specialized versions tweaked for each company
HSA 3/4ths vs HSA Complete
Click to expand...
LP-DDR3 is slower than DDR3 and the papers I have read are using it in SoCs in ultra-wide configurations (stacked) where a wide buss makes up for slower RAM. Same most likely for DDR4. Clock speed tells us nothing about transfer speed if ultra-wide stacked.

The fact that LP-DDR3 is mentioned as it's too slow in a standard configuration to be used for a AMD APU MUST mean it's a 3D memory STACK inside the SoC or in some way ultra-wide BUSS attached. This implied the same for DDR4.
 
T

thuway

Member
jeff_rigby said:
Again, good find <grin>. I assumed this was the case and the "Leak" below implies this:


LP-DDR3 is slower than DDR3 and the papers I have read are using it in SoCs in ultra-wide configurations (stacked) where a wide buss makes up for slower RAM. Same most likely for DDR4. Clock speed tells us nothing about transfer speed if ultra-wide stacked.

The fact that LP-DDR3 is mentioned as it's too slow in a standard configuration to be used for a AMD APU MUST mean it's a 3D memory STACK inside the SoC or in some way ultra-wide BUSS attached. This implied the same for DDR4.
Click to expand...

The pieces are actually fitting. However, none of this can be done before 2014. Sony and MS must be biting their nails. Hopefully they used the afforded time to up the components.
 
I

i-Lo

Member
thuway said:
The pieces are actually fitting. However, none of this can be done before 2014. Sony and MS must be biting their nails. Hopefully they used the afforded time to up the components.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this thing about 2014. Are you sure that consoles can't be the vanguard of this change in late 2013?

onQ123 said:
I guess it was for this thread

Could 4K take PC Gamers out of the Desk Space Ghetto & into the Comfy Couch Suburbs?
Click to expand...

For how long will the tag be attached? Also, I assume you can't make threads right now.
 
O

onQ123

Member
Stephen Colbert said:
You guys are missing the point.

Yes, when Kinect is being utilized (Kinect based games), a lot of the ram will be devoted to it and rest of the game will have to make do with only 4gbs of ram or so.

But for typical dudebro games that don't make use of Kinect at all, those games will have access to all that ram that would otherwise be going to Kinect.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's that simple because Xbox 3 is going for the all in one media center box, which will need that Ram that's being set aside to be available at any giving moment for DVR, Media Sever , Game Sever & other things so you wouldn't want a certain game to disable the features that's going to be a big part of the console.


i-Lo said:
For how long will the tag be attached? Also, I assume you can't make threads right now.
Click to expand...

Forever I guess.
 
J

jeff_rigby

Banned
i-Lo said:
I don't understand this thing about 2014. Are you sure that consoles can't be the vanguard of this change in late 2013?
Click to expand...

3) 3D wafer stacked memory will be ready for Game Consoles 2013-2014 Provides even more efficiencies when inside the SOC. Page 23

Vanguard of the change...yes in many ways but that's already taken into account. Link to what appears to be accurate has H1 2014 for the PS4 and Xbox 720 I assume because of custom DDR4 from Micron.
 
T

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Excess system RAM isn't a bad thing. It could be used as a standby cache for faster loading.
 
S

SlickShoesRUCrazy

Member
thuway said:
Even if we saw 2 GB of DDR3 and 6 GB of GDDR5, we are talking a shit ton of memory. Money that could be easily allocated to something that would offer a performance gain. Donating that money to the GPU or the thermal budget would do wonders. However, if they plunk down nearly 65-70 watts for just memory O_O.... Holy fuck, than yeah, next-gen will be interesting. You'd have better IQ, framerates, and effects on PlayStation and more NPCs, animations, and textures on the Xbox version of games. Talk about crazy differentiators.
Click to expand...

jeff_rigby said:
3) 3D wafer stacked memory will be ready for Game Consoles 2013-2014 Provides even more efficiencies when inside the SOC. Page 23

Vanguard of the change...yes in many ways but that's already taken into account. Link to what appears to be accurate has H1 2014 for the PS4 and Xbox 720 I assume because of custom DDR4 from Micron.
Click to expand...

http://hybridmemorycube.org/about.html

to add to your post like I posted earlier, Microsoft joined the Hybrid Memory Cube consortium that was started by Samsung and Micron as a major developer and I would assume financial backing.
 
B

bgassassin

Member
RoboPlato said:
I think Samaritan was actually running at a greater than 1080p resolution then downsampled when it was first shown.
Click to expand...

It did if I remember correctly as well or someone calculated it out to conclude it was, but he seems to be referring to Epic's formula for Samaritan and how many TFLOPs needed for 1080p/30. The reason I said not to put much stock in that was because that was a UE3-based demo. As of now we don't know if it's better or worse with UE4.
 
O

onQ123

Member
bgassassin said:
It did if I remember correctly as well or someone calculated it out to conclude it was, but he seems to be referring to Epic's formula for Samaritan and how many TFLOPs needed for 1080p/30. The reason I said not to put much stock in that was because that was a UE3-based demo. As of now we don't know if it's better or worse with UE4.
Click to expand...

I also notice Final Fantasy Agni's Philosophy being shown at 4K on the new Toshiba 4K TVs


FF+4K.jpg


http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231761/Toshiba_plans_three_4K_TVs_next_year
 
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