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Responsibility over a healthy Console environment and competition.

T

Takamura-San

Member
In a few hours the Xbox One will be released and finally all consoles (minus Steam Box) will be on the market. It has been a very interesting how the past few months have unfolded. From the moment each one of these consoles have been announced there have been rumors, discussion and debate.

I believe that we all want a healthy console environment. Competition is good. It drives companies to innovate and create things that the consumer demands.

Now we have heard from a few media outlets that this is what they want. They want a healthy console environment and competition. But who is responsible for that to happen? I believe the responsibility lies with the console makers.

One of the things that has me very frustrated about the gaming media these days is that they feel that they have the responsibility over making this a fair and balanced fight. But, guess what? This is not your role. The gaming media is there to inform of the current state of affairs,the public makes judgement on this information and it is the responsibility of the console makers to adapt and correct.

This is why people get upset when the media downplays any consumer concern about any of the consoles. This is not your role. Your role is to tell us what is happening. The color commentary is not needed. The condescension over complains that may not matter to you over the sake of "healthy competition". If a company is fucking up, then that company is fucking up. Acknowledge, the public will react and the company has to self correct.

Almost all of gaming media (IGN, Polygon, Giantbomb, etc) has taken up the task of making this a fair fight. I'm personally telling you, this is not your role.

Hopefully this doesn't devolve into "console wars". Like I said, everyone benefits from a healthy console environment. At the same time it is Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony's job to convince the people that their option is viable. Not the media.
 
B

Biker19

Banned
Thank you. This is what I've been saying all along, & someone else as well (here, here, & here,).

It's the companies job to make consumers want their product. We shouldn't just hope that everyone does well for the sake of the industry as that's not always guaranteed.
 
U

Unknown One

Member
I feel like if this is the other way around, the media would beat down on the PS4. Gaf would as well, proof is in the past and that's understandable.
 
Schrade

Schrade

Member
Most Gaming "journalists" are not unlike most news "journalists". They want to "change the world" (to their own point of view/bias.)
 
H

hwy_61

Banned
But if gaming media lived and died by what you say, we would have no gaming podcasts.

Then what will I listen to while I work?? This American Life?

THAT'S ONLY AN HOUR LONG.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
I have a feeling that people are worried about MS leaving gaming, as that would punch a huge hole in ad revenue for these sites.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
hwy_61 said:
But if gaming media lived and died by what you say, we would have no gaming podcasts.

Then what will I listen to while I work?? This American Life?

THAT'S ONLY AN HOUR LONG.
Click to expand...

What I posted doesn't apply to game reviews. They can talk ad nauseum about those. When it comes about news about product it is not the role of the media (when it comes to luxury products) to make judgement on what matters or not.
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Lord-Audie said:
In a few hours the Xbox One will be released and finally all consoles (minus Steam Box) will be on the market. It has been a very interesting how the past few months have unfolded. From the moment each one of these consoles have been announced there have been rumors, discussion and debate.

I believe that we all want a healthy console environment. Competition is good. It drives companies to innovate and create things that the consumer demands.
Click to expand...

I've never understood why it's vital that both the 1 and the PS4 do well. Part of competition is the potential for failure.

Saying "Oh. Evil stuff might happen!" really doesn't explain this away at all. There's other competition out there. Nintendo still exists, there are otehr parties looking to move into the console space etc. There is no potential monopoly staring us in the face right now.

Comes across as more of a narrative the press is trying to feed us to explain away weird reporting choices like saying "uprezzed" instead of 720p. Not even sure how the 1 doing well inherently helps the press.
 
GHG

GHG

Gold Member
I don't understand how people think that Microsoft are good for the industry and have good intentions anymore after the shit they tried to pull earlier this year.

Yes, undoubtedly they were good for the industry between 2005-2010 and gave Sony (and the wider industry) the kick up the backside they needed, but everything they have done since then shows that they only care about extracting as much money and information (to sell) from consumers. Even between 2005 and 2010 the warning signs were there, but the gaming experience on the 360 was just so so good that nobody could really see it.

Its their anti-consumer policy that gets my back up more than anything, and despite a few interesting exclusives, that is why I can't support them in the console gaming space anymore (I own a windows phone and a gaming PC). Trust me, the direction that they would take the industry in if they were the dominant force would not benefit anyone.

What gets me is that through all of this nobody in the gaming media is supporting Nintendo like they are the Xbox One. Maybe its an issue of patriotism? Maybe the US media have something against Japanese gaming companies? But the fact of the matter is, if 720p vs 1080p "doesn't really matter", why is nobody recommending for everyone to buy a Wii U which is HALF the price of the Xbox One?
 
S

Shinta

Banned
I think your post is what "game journalists" would do in a fantasy idealized world. But it's more useful to look at it with all of that stripped away, and just see what the organizations do, and what their interests are.

They are profit driven websites. The goal is to generate money through ad revenue through increased traffic.

Nowhere is there a mandate to be objective, and to be a consumer watchdog. Nowhere are they pledging to promote pure capitalism so the invisible hand of the market can work for the betterment of gaming. This is pure fantasy and idealism.

Look at what they do, and how that impacts their primary goal, generating profit.

That's just the basic first layer. There are biases on top of that and it gets much more complex.

I think we all know that if the systems' fortunes were reversed, they would not be nearly as diplomatic about it.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
Freshmaker said:
I've never understood why it's vital that both the 1 and the PS4 do well. Part of competition is the potential for failure.

Saying "Oh. Evil stuff might happen!" really doesn't explain this away at all.
Click to expand...

And this is what drove the MS to adapt and correct. If the media just did it's job of just informing people of what MS wanted of the Xbox One instead of trying to pass it as a non-issue they would have adapted quicker.
 
O

Ogimachi

Member
OP is absolutely right.
The PS2 outsold its competitors by a huge margin and consumers weren't hurt because of it.
It's a bit stupid, really. We wouldn't have a "dangerous monopoly" even if the Xbox division was closed next month. These are not the only gaming platforms around.

Journalists like the "console war'. They come up with this poor reasoning pretending to be acting in our interest, even though they're in complete silence about both companies charging for online multiplayer.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Lord-Audie said:
And this is what drove the MS to adapt and correct. If the media just did it's job of just informing people of what MS wanted of the Xbox One instead of trying to pass it as a non-issue they would have adapted quicker.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that prove their goals are not facilitating pure, unfettered competition?

If that was actually one of their goals, they'd be doing it now.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
Shinta said:
Doesn't that prove their goals are not facilitating pure, unfettered competition?

If that was actually one of their goals, they'd be doing it now.
Click to expand...

By their you mean the media or MS on this case?

MS is the one that should try to convince me to buy their products. The media's is to inform and make sure that what they are saying is true.
 
D

Dragonborn

Member
The industry was just fine when the PS1 and PS2 dominated, there's no reason to believe Xbox disappearing would be damaging. Someone else would eventually jump into the business.

MS has brought some good innovations, primarily online, and pushed Sony forward a lot, but they've also brought so many negatives and at this point, they outweigh what positives they've contributed. I, for one, wouldn't mind seeing someone else take their place.
 
S

Shinta

Banned
Lord-Audie said:
The media's is to inform and make sure that what they are saying is true.
Click to expand...
The "media's" job is to generate profit from ad revenue due to increased traffic.

The rest is just assumed, and runs contrary to how they actually act a great deal of the time.

Generating traffic can be from 1) entertaining 2) informing 3) generating hate and controversy 4) maintaining an equal balance so both groups of fans enjoy the site 5) slanting coverage in favor of the biases that are popular with people visiting the site.

Objectivity is what the media used to be, but it's really dead now. All of those different goals carry equal weight in their bottom line.
 
S

Sydle

Member
OP, can you provide some examples where journalists are white knighting en masse?

Each review I've read of the hardware is quite direct about the present issues, they certainly aren't hiding anything, and they're pretty reasonable assessing those issues in context of the grand scheme of things.

From my perspective, there are no big issues with Xbox right now. There are a few niggles here and there, but nothing that warrants trashing the console or writing it off.

sirfairfax said:
OP is absolutely right.
The PS2 outsold its competitors by a huge margin and consumers weren't hurt because of it.
It's a bit stupid, really. We wouldn't have a "dangerous monopoly" even if the Xbox division was closed next month. These are not the only gaming platforms around.

Journalists like the "console war'. They come up with this poor reasoning pretending to be acting in our interest, even though they're in complete silence about both companies charging for online multiplayer.
Click to expand...

599 US dollars and shitty online services.
 
GHG

GHG

Gold Member
JayDub said:
So OP's message is:

"I dont like the Xbox One and the media shouldn't neither!"
Click to expand...

No. He's simply stating that the gaming media should be honest about the differences between the PS4 and Xbox One.

What they are currently doing is playing down the areas where Sony's console is superior by saying "it doesn't matter", "you can't tell" or that "it will get better on the Xbox One" (As if it wont get better on the PS4 right?). What they are also doing is exaggerating the few areas that the Xbox One is superior. They are also failing to talk about the vast difference in the pricing of the 2 consoles and are basically saying that if you add the PS4 camera then they are the same price (who said everyone wanted a god-damn camera?).

If it was the other way round (like it was when the PS3 and 360 released, then the PS4 would be getting slated like no tomorrow and the gaming media would be declaring the death of the PlayStation brand and Sony.

Why everyone wants Sony to fail so much is beyond me. But let me tell you, the situation in the Middle East (where I'm currently living as an expat) is very different. The Xbox One is going to get annihilated over here. PS4 ads are everywhere and a lot of space dedicated to Sony platforms in stores (online shopping doesn't really exist over here) but the Xbox One is nowhere to be seen. I haven't seen a single advert/pre order sign for it in a shop window while the PS4 is sold out (for pre-orders) everywhere.

The US gaming media can try as much as they like but outside of the US, their influence is minimal. Everyone else will be left to make up their own minds based on the facts in front of them. The PS4 is cheaper, more powerful, more consumer friendly and has a stronger and more diverse 1st party gaming offering. The console is a return to form for Sony and considering the strength of the PS brand, global sales will reflect that quite quickly.

Paco said:
OP, can you provide some examples where journalists are white knighting en masse?

Each review I've read of the hardware is quite direct about the present issues, they certainly aren't hiding anything, and they're pretty reasonable assessing those issues in context of the grand scheme of things.

From my perspective, there are no big issues with Xbox right now. There are a few niggles here and there, but nothing that warrants trashing the console or writing it off.



599 US dollars and shitty online services.
Click to expand...

So companies don't make mistakes? Yes the console was horribly priced but Sony's vision at the time was to use exotic (and pricy) hardware that would push the industry forward whilst enabling people to continue to play their back-catalog of PS1 and PS2 games. The biggest cost at the time was the BD drive, which is now in both next-gen consoles. They made a mistake at a time when the world was entering a global financial crisis. They misread the market and have since come out and apologised for it. Hence they have gone "back to their roots" for the PS4. If for nothing else, they deserve some credit for that.

If you want to talk about the mistakes that Microsoft have made over the years then we would be here a while.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
This has been said occasionally while being-biased-to-not-be-biased by several media types when hard numbers or confirmation of rumors showed up.

Paco said:
599 US dollars and shitty online services.
Click to expand...

People were too busy shoving Wiis and 360s into their shopping carts to fall prey to this.
 
S

Soul_Pie

Member
The WiiU has fallen flat on its face for the last year and there hasn't been any claims that the industry needs Nintendo to be strong in order for there to be good competition. I know there's an argument that Nintendo occupy a different space and aren't in direct competition but I don't entirely buy that.

Microsoft revealed their direction for the industry, which to me isn't a vision that I'm comfortable supporting, I also don't think Microsoft has done much competing in terms of interesting software over the past 3 years anyway. The thing about competition is that these companies should pay the price for misjudging consumers, Sony suffered this last generation with their arrogance, Nintendo have in the past, it seems part and parcel of the cycle of the industry.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
Paco said:
OP, can you provide some examples where journalists are white knighting en masse?

Each review I've read of the hardware is quite direct about the present issues, they certainly aren't hiding anything, and they're pretty reasonable assessing those issues in context of the grand scheme of things.

From my perspective, there are no big issues with Xbox right now. There are a few niggles here and there, but nothing that warrants trashing the console or writing it off.



599 US dollars and shitty online services.
Click to expand...

Recently? This:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=718598

It might have been sheer ignorance. At worst an attempt of creating a healthy console environment by portraying both consoles equally. Why would the media need to obscure facts about the consoles?
 
Clockwork5

Clockwork5

Member
The info is released. Opinions are given. Why not have both?

If you think certain outlets are biased then find a different outlet that better represents your (obvious) own bias. Or if you want, stick to the informative pieces about pixel counting, tflops, release dates and such.
 
S

Sydle

Member
GHG said:
No. He's simply stating that the gaming media should be honest about the differences between the PS4 and Xbox One.

What they are currently doing is playing down the areas where Sony's console is superior by saying "it doesn't matter", "you can't tell" or that "it will get better on the Xbox One" (As if it wont get better on the PS4 right?). What they are also doing is exaggerating the few areas that the Xbox One is superior. They are also failing to talk about the vast difference in the pricing of the 2 consoles and are basically saying that if you add the PS4 camera then they are the same price (who said everyone wanted a god-damn camera?).

If it was the other way round (like it was when the PS3 and 360 released, then the PS4 would be getting slated like no tomorrow and the gaming media would be declaring the death of the PlayStation brand and Sony.

Why everyone wants Sony to fail so much is beyond me. But let me tell you, the situation in the Middle East (where I'm currently living as an expat) is very different. The Xbox One is going to get annihilated over here. PS4 ads are everywhere and a lot of space dedicated to Sony platforms in stores (online shopping doesn't really exist over here) but the Xbox One is nowhere to be seen. I haven't seen a single advert/pre order sign for it in a shop window while the PS4 is sold out (for pre-orders) everywhere.

The US gaming media can try as much as they like but outside of the US, their influence is minimal. Everyone else will be left to make up their own minds based on the facts in front of them. The PS4 is cheaper, more powerful, more consumer friendly and has a stronger and more diverse 1st party gaming offering. The console is a return to form for Sony and considering the strength of the PS brand, global sales will reflect that quite quickly.
Click to expand...

I've been following both consoles pretty closely here and in the media. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing in terms of any kind of movement for Sony to fail. In fact, I've seen a lot of glowing praise for what Sony is doing and there are a lot of journos rooting for Sony to succeed.

Could you provide some examples to help me understand where you're coming from?
 
P

PhantomR

Banned
Gleethor said:
Yeah gaming media, stop sticking up for Nintendo and tell it like it is!
Click to expand...

Well played, sir.

tumblr_ltqadsiiuI1r5qrimo1_500.gif
 
T

TheRagnCajun

Member
Sums up my feeling about the whole resolution gate thing. Basically GAF finds out about 720p, then parts of the gaming media go on damage control:

'Its not a big deal'
'I can't see the difference'
'special upscalers'
'balance'

Why are some journalists telling us how to react after we have already reacted? Why are they then making comments on twitter about how horrible we are? Honestly it is I who is embarrassed. Its hard to tell who's interests some of them are really serving. For what its worth (probably not much), I have a blacklist as well, and I had to add a few names/publications to it recently.

Not to paint all of them with the same brush, mind you.
 
S

Sydle

Member
Lord-Audie said:
Recently? This:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=718598

It might have been sheer ignorance. At worst an attempt of creating a healthy console environment by portraying both consoles equally. Why would the media need to obscure facts about the consoles?
Click to expand...

Just had to glance at the logo and the subject matter to know to brush that off. Don't go to GameSpot for tech analysis.

And lol at the idea those kind of errors are going to influence anything. Ultimately, with the mass market, it's about the output, not what's under the hood. I know I'm going to get ripped on this message board for being tech ignorant, but I can't see any big different between the visual splendor of Ryse and Killzone SF. They both look great. Does that make me part of the problem?
 
GHG

GHG

Gold Member
Paco said:
I've been following both consoles pretty closely here and in the media. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing in terms of any kind of movement for Sony to fail. In fact, I've seen a lot of glowing praise for what Sony is doing and there are a lot of journos rooting for Sony to succeed.

Could you provide some examples to help me understand where you're coming from?
Click to expand...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=718598

Whether that is just ignorance or sheer incompetence I don't know but that's pretty inexcusable.

Then there is all the stuff from Polygon...
 
C

crazygambit

Member
I find it interesting that everyone, absolutely everyone on this forum understood that the market wasn't big enough for 2 competing formats for movie playback. Everyone understood that competition in that front wasn't good for consumers, that it would just fragment the market. The more technically advanced Bluray won and now we have a standard and that's a good thing. Competition in that case isn't better for consumers.

On the other hand we have the console market, that's very similar to the scenario described above, yet everyone goes on and on about how having more consoles in the market is good for consumers. Competition is good they say, yet the market is fragmented and we have to put up with companies porting their games to as many platforms as they can and optimizing none of them, and you get fiascos like the latest COD.

Would things really be better if we have let's say 5 more consoles. The cost of entry would be tremendous, only for most games to be multiplatform anyway, except from the exclusives of the platform holder. Wouldn't it be better if you could play every game on only 1 platform? And it's not like there wouldn't be any competition either. There's always the PC, and since it's an open platform, competition is actually good for the consumer in that space.

Anyhow, probably the best generation we've had as far as games go had a console in the clear lead, the PS2, so the lack of competition didn't hurt us much IMO.

In conclusion I think it's clear that there is an optimal number of consoles. More than 3 clearly seems like too many. Maybe 1 isn't enough, after all unlike movie players, they do offer somewhat different services. I'd like to see a market with a powerful console and something more aimed at the casual like the Wii (not the WiiU). Something that doesn't encourage too many ports. I think that would be ideal.
 
A

a916

Member
Almost all of gaming media (IGN, Polygon, Giantbomb, etc) has taken up the task of making this a fair fight. I'm personally telling you, this is not your role.
Click to expand...

I don't know about you... but I'd rather not they do the opposite and outright declare a winner which would seem really stupid considering neither console has been out for longer than a week.

We have no idea what these consoles will evolve with firmware updates nor do we know what exclusives each company has in store.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
Paco said:
Just had to glance at the logo and the subject matter to know to brush that off. Don't go to GameSpot for tech analysis.
Click to expand...

Not everyone knows that.

And lol at the idea those kind of errors are going to influence anything. Ultimately, with the mass market, it's about the output, not what's under the hood. I know I'm going to get ripped on this message board for being tech ignorant, but I can't see any big different between the visual splendor of Ryse and Killzone SF
Click to expand...
.

If that's the case, why do they feel the need to downplay the difference?

They both look great. Does that make me part of the problem?
Click to expand...

No. You're not the problem. You are the consumer and you made a choice, based on the facts given to you. You can buy any product you want with your hard earned money.
 
S

Sydle

Member
GHG said:
So companies don't make mistakes? Yes the console was horribly priced but Sony's vision at the time was to use exotic (and pricy) hardware that would push the industry forward whilst enabling people to continue to play their back-catalog of PS1 and PS2 games. The biggest cost at the time was the BD drive, which is now in both next-gen consoles. They made a mistake at a time when the world was entering a global financial crisis. They misread the market and have since come out and apologised for it. Hence they have gone "back to their roots" for the PS4. If for nothing else, they deserve some credit for that.

If you want to talk about the mistakes that Microsoft have made over the years then we would be here a while.
Click to expand...

Mistakes? Do you recall ANYTHING Sony said in 2006?

PS3 would sell without any games.

They got cocky and the end result was the PS3. They didn't get away with it because Wii and 360 were around.

They don't deserve any credit for returning to what was working after their attitude failed. It should be expected.
 
T

Takamura-San

Member
a916 said:
I don't know about you... but I'd rather not they do the opposite and outright declare a winner which would seem really stupid considering neither console has been out for longer than a week.

We have no idea what these consoles will evolve with firmware updates nor do we know what exclusives each company has in store.
Click to expand...

They don't have to declare a winner... users declare the winner.
 
GHG

GHG

Gold Member
Paco said:
Mistakes? Do you recall ANYTHING Sony said in 2006?

PS3 would sell without any games.

They got cocky and the end result was the PS3. They didn't get away with it because Wii and 360 were around.

They don't deserve any credit for returning to what was working after their attitude failed. It should be expected.
Click to expand...

Can you pull up the exact quote for that please?

From what I can remember they said that in the context that the media capabilities (would warrant a purchase for some consumers that had no interest in games (and at the time they were correct as it was one of the cheaper and more capable Blu-Ray players on the market).

The great irony is that now roles have been reversed this gen. Sony has made a pure-breed gaming console with media capabilities being a bonus and not the focus and the Xbox One has made a console more focused on media capabilities.
 
S

Sydle

Member
GHG said:
Can you pull up the exact quote for that please?

From what I can remember they said that in the context that the media capabilities (would warrant a purchase for some consumers that had no interest in games (and at the time they were correct as it was one of the cheaper and more capable Blu-Ray players on the market).

The great irony is that now roles have been reversed this gen. Sony has made a pure-breed gaming console with media capabilities being a bonus and not the focus and the Xbox One has made a console more focused on media capabilities.
Click to expand...

"We have built up a certain brand equity over time since the launch of PlayStation in 1995 and PS2 in 2000 that the first five million are going to buy it, whatever it is, even it didn't have games."
Click to expand...

Link

It was hubris and it bit them in the ass, just like it got the better of MS.

I seriously hope MS and Sony keep the heat on each other, and I'd love to see Nintendo make things even hotter.
 
P

PBY

Banned
I don't even know how to respond to the discussion here, because I think that you're premise is flawed. I don't think the media are actively working to achieve competitive balance.
 
T

troushers

Member
peterb0y said:
I don't even know how to respond to the discussion here, because I think that you're premise is flawed. I don't think the media are actively working to achieve competitive balance.
Click to expand...

The view has been expressed, though whether it is actually changing the way they cover games is impossible to know:
lUsKk68.png
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
hear hear. If Nintendo and MS fuck up, why should they be given free passes by the press or anyone just for the sake of a level playing field? That would be the very definition of an uneven playing field

To those worried about a sony monopoly - there is no evidence or clear patterns in past generations to be worried about that. Sega dropped out of the console hardware space and MS came in. If one of the current guys dropped out, maybe samsung, or Apple, or whoever might come in. Or if MS fails big time, they might shortcut the generation like they did with the OG Xbox and come out swinging with an awesome box in 4 years.
 
S

Seanspeed

Banned
Crakatak187 said:
I feel like if this is the other way around, the media would beat down on the PS4. Gaf would as well, proof is in the past and that's understandable.
Click to expand...
Oh geez, really? Are people really trying to say that Sony is a 'victim'? My lord.

Anyways, this thread sounds mostly like people aren't happy with the amount of Xbox bashing in the press. I tend to think that most gaming journalists just aren't quite as reactionary as a lot of people on here, though.
 
M

Mael

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Samsung or Google or someone would probably just buy the XBox division and carry on.
Click to expand...

Why would they even do that?
There's no margin to be had and if MSFT of all people don't have the money to carry on...
It's not like Nokia where MSFT just bought the relevant part of Nokia because....well because the MSFT insider sabotaged Nokia...
 
U

Unknown One

Member
Seanspeed said:
Oh geez, really? Are people really trying to say that Sony is a 'victim'? My lord.

Anyways, this thread sounds mostly like people aren't happy with the amount of Xbox bashing in the press. I tend to think that most gaming journalists just aren't quite as reactionary as a lot of people on here, though.
Click to expand...
Have you forgotten? All the PS3 is dead articles? It had the same treatment or even worst than the Wii-u.
 
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