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Squeak · May 13, 2006

Why does every game that employs some kind of FPS. control scheme have to use the "push the screen around" style of moving the camera?
Why not have the A button merge or unmerge the view and sight, almost like when you lift the mouse when playing a PC FPS, but with the added advantage of still being able to aim while the "mouse" is "lifted"?
You would have to reserve the A button, but isn't that a small price to pay to get vastly better controls? You would still have the two triggers on the analog stick and the gestures that's possible with the two controllerparts.

Shogmaster · May 13, 2006

Squeak said:
Why does every game that employs some kind of FPS. control scheme have to use the "push the screen around" style of moving the camera?
Why not have the A button merge or unmerge the view and sight, almost like when you lift the mouse when playing a PC FPS, but with the added advantage of still being able to aim while the "mouse" is "lifted"?
You would have to reserve the A button, but isn't that a small price to pay to get vastly better controls? You would still have the two triggers on the analog stick and the gestures that's possible with the two controllerparts.

It's because of the nature of the sensor bar/IR emitter combo. The freehand aiming nature of it makes consistant re-centering impossible, so analog stick like movement method is impossible. Mouse can get away with not worrying about auto centering since lifting it off the surface let's you continue to move it around to indicate further movement, but since you must always aim the Wiimote's IR emitter within the sensor bar's visual range, no such adjustment is possible to work in "mouse mode".

I did a horrible job of explaining that, but it's 3AM so I will have to make a better effort tomorrow.

poppin fresh · May 13, 2006

Shogmaster said:
It's because of the nature of the sensor bar/IR emitter combo. The freehand aiming nature of it makes consistant re-centering impossible, so analog stick like movement method is impossible. Mouse can get away with not worrying about auto centering since lifting it off the surface let's you continue to move it around to indicate further movement, but since you must always aim the Wiimote's IR emitter within the sensor bar's visual range, no such adjustment is possible to work in "mouse mode".

I did a horrible job of explaining that, but it's 3AM so I will have to make a better effort tomorrow.

What he is saying I think is allowing a button to act as a way to mimic the lifting of the mouse(press a button that almost pauses look control), this would allow the user to re-position their cursor within the IR field effectively allowing target centered viewing.

At first I assumed that was how the FPS look and targeting would work (though it could feel realy clunky) but the reports about MP3 sound fairly solid, I think it will be a bit of wait and see while developers try options and see what works

Halcyon-banned · May 13, 2006

Yeah, I think it would be tedious flicking the remote back and forth and pressing/depressing a button just to turn around.

zou · May 13, 2006

I thought thats what the "expert" mode in MP3 was for?

cybamerc · May 13, 2006

I think it would be interesting with a control scheme where you don't have to point the remote at the screen. As suggested by some you a button could be used to center the controls when you move your arm or the game could ignore exagerated movements. That way you'd be able to rest your arms comfortably in your lap.

Anyway, this is clearly a learning experience for most developers and I'm sure someone will get it right eventually.

Xrenity · May 13, 2006

zou said:
I thought thats what the "expert" mode in MP3 was for?

Jup.

Turns out most people didn't know there was any.
This expert mode sounds exactly how I imagined shooters to be on Wii.

Shaheed79 · May 13, 2006

Shogmaster said:
It's because of the nature of the sensor bar/IR emitter combo. The freehand aiming nature of it makes consistant re-centering impossible, so analog stick like movement method is impossible. Mouse can get away with not worrying about auto centering since lifting it off the surface let's you continue to move it around to indicate further movement, but since you must always aim the Wiimote's IR emitter within the sensor bar's visual range, no such adjustment is possible to work in "mouse mode".

I did a horrible job of explaining that, but it's 3AM so I will have to make a better effort tomorrow.

You're insane if you believe that. A standard gyro mouse that you can buy right now can simulate analog movement I've seen it done. The problem with pushing the screen was purely a "tard mode" setting and had nothing to do with the sensor bars. Read PGC's article about MP3's expert mode which we unfortunately don't have a video of yet. Sammy can you please elaborate again since you played on Expert first hand?

AndoCalrissian · May 13, 2006

Xrenity said:
Jup.

Turns out most people didn't know there was any.
This expert mode sounds exactly how I imagined shooters to be on Wii.

Interesting. I only got like 4 minutes with MP3 because the media kept cutting in line (on every single game I played, WTF) and only got to try out the standard control. I'd prefer FPS controls, and a sensitivity adjustment is an absolutely must in nearly every game I played.

Squeak · May 13, 2006

Halcyon said:
Yeah, I think it would be tedious flicking the remote back and forth and pressing/depressing a button just to turn around.

Surely not more tedious than lifting the mouse to turn a full circle (ie. not at all)? And you could still have the "tard mode" when the mouse is lifted (being that by pressing or releasing the A button).

BudokaiMR2 · May 13, 2006

Squeak said:
Why does every game that employs some kind of FPS. control scheme have to use the "push the screen around" style of moving the camera?
Why not have the A button merge or unmerge the view and sight, almost like when you lift the mouse when playing a PC FPS, but with the added advantage of still being able to aim while the "mouse" is "lifted"?
You would have to reserve the A button, but isn't that a small price to pay to get vastly better controls? You would still have the two triggers on the analog stick and the gestures that's possible with the two controllerparts.

This has been discussed in other threads and there is an expert mode in MP3 that is how all WiiFPS games should control.

Squeak · May 13, 2006

My understanding is that the expert mode is just the push controls, with a gradual and tighter border.
Just a slight improvement of something that isn't very good in the first place.

Halcyon-banned · May 13, 2006

Squeak said:
Surely not more tedious than lifting the mouse to turn a full circle (ie. not at all)? And you could still have the "tard mode" when the mouse is lifted (being that by pressing or releasing the A button).

Worse than a mouse, as there is no need to co-ordinate a button press with that, and it is in general a smaller and more precise hand movement because of the hard surface beneath it.

There probably is a better method for controlling FPS with the 'mote than this de-facto one which several developers have settled on, but that isn't it, imo.

BudokaiMR2 · May 13, 2006

Squeak said:
My understanding is that the expert mode is just the push controls, with a gradual and tighter border.
Just a slight improvement of something that isn't very good in the first place.

I think it is a bigger change than that, but the details are pretty vague right now. From the other MP3 thread:

sammy said:
set to expert, you smoothly transition into her full analog turn as you move the crosshair arround ---- soooooooooooooooooo much nicer and a little more transitional, the game totally clicked once i turned it on.

Sounds like it just keeps the reticle in the middle of the screen like a normal FPS control scheme would. <shrug>

Squeak · May 13, 2006

Halcyon said:
Worse than a mouse, as there is no need to co-ordinate a button press with that, and it is in general a smaller and more precise hand movement because of the hard surface beneath it.

Pick up a flashlight or a laser pointer and rest your arm in you lab or on your desk top, and see how precisely and fast you can hit various objects. I get a better result than with a mouse, and that's precisely because of the absence of what you claim to be the mouses advantage, the semi arbitrary friction of the mousepad, versus the smooth movements of the combined efforts of your wrist and fingers.

Pressing a button to lift the mouse only seem cumbersome because that isn't what you are used to. Back when you where learning how to use a mouse, lifting it and putting it down another place also seemed counter intuitive. Pressing a button is a faster move to boot, making snap turns even faster.

Halcyon-banned · May 13, 2006

BudokaiMR2 said:
I think it is a bigger change than that, but the details are pretty vague right now.

No, he's right from what I've read, the difference is that the "push threshold" is linear instead of set.

Pressing a button to lift the mouse only seem cumpersome because that isn't what you are used to. Back when you where learning how to use a mouse lifting it and putting it down another place also seeme counter intuitive.

No, I think I got it immediately. But you may be right; it may be better once one is used to it. But I doubt it.

soundwave05 · May 13, 2006

The expert mode in MP3 basically solves all these issues by just adjusting the sensitivity settings.

The other thing people forget entirely is this ... the Wiimote also has a d-pad, which can be used for turning/moving in a FPS in addition to the analog stick and Wiimote aiming.

If you compare a keyboard/mouse or dual analog to Wii ... you'll see the Wii actually has double the amount of ways to input movement + aiming.

Dual Analog Set Up

Analog 1 = Makes Character Move
Analog 2 = Is Your Aimer/Sight

Ditto for keyboard mouse more less.

Now lets compare to the Wii

Analog 1 = Can Make Character Move
D-Pad 1 = Can Make Character Turn/Look Around Indepdently
Wiimote Motion Sensor = Can Make Character Aim
Nunchaku Motion Sensor = Can be used for motion based attacks

When you actually think about ... the potential here is ridiculously massive. In time IMO, you'll be able to do things on Wii FPS titles that you can't even replicate on a keyboard/mouse.

If the PS2 controller is like a "Dual Shock" setup, the Wii for FPS is actually like a "Quad Shock" ... depending on how the developer wants to utilize it all.

Squeak · May 13, 2006

Using the d-pad to control anything but menus or weapon selection in a FPS style gameplay, would be a bad idea.
1 the d-pad is way in front of the natural resting point of the finger on the B button, throwing the whole balance of the controller off. 2 you lose the advantage of the analog stick.

Wink · May 13, 2006

I absolutely hate the "push the screen around" method. Pushing a button to center the crosshair in the middle and moving the camera around with it is a good idea, but I more like the idea of having a deadzone in the middle of the screen where you move the pointer independently. If you leave this zone the camera recenters at where you point.

Hopefully they implement many control schemes in FPS games that everyone can figure out his favorite method.

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