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How the Xbox One GPU Kinect reserve unlock works

mocoworm

Member
Long article. Clink the link to read it all.

How the Xbox One GPU Kinect reserve unlock works - Microsoft expects "tangible" benefit for games out this Christmas.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-17-how-the-xbox-one-gpu-reserve-unlock-actually-works

Eurogamer said:
Microsoft has moved to clarify the impact of its decision to unlock the power of the Xbox One's graphics processing unit previously reserved for Kinect.

When Xbox One launched, 10 per cent of the console's GPU was reserved for use with the Kinect sensor. But this month Microsoft began selling the Xbox One without Kinect for a reduced price, and to coincide with that unlocked the 10 per cent reserve for developers to use as they see fit.

What Microsoft has done is create a flexible system where, according to Lobb, the Xbox One's GPU and RAM "can bounce".

"So if someone says, 'Xbox record that,' it will work on 100 per cent of the games, if you have a Kinect."

If you don't have a Kinect, "it's not like you have more RAM," Lobb clarified.

It's worth noting that if a developer creates a Kinect-free game, gesture controls and visual recognition features are suspended while the game is running. As soon as you minimise the game, however, all of the Kinect functionality returns.

How games use the extra horsepower will be up to developers, Lobb added. One, Bungie, has already been able to increase the resolution and frame-rate of its game, Destiny, on Xbox One, to hit 1080p30 - matching the PlayStation 4 version.

Other developers, however, might use it differently.

"You have more GPU, so go ahead and use it how you want," Lobb said. "It's more GPU plus more bandwidth to the GPU, so they both matter. So for some games it might be resolution, it might be frame-rate, or it might be, let's throw in more enemies."

The performance enhancements Microsoft has triggered in the Xbox One are all a part of "our platform improvement", Microsoft Studios Europe boss Phil Harrison told Eurogamer.

"The libraries developers get at the beginning of the life of a platform are radically different to the ones they will get five, eight and 10 years later," he said.

"Our job as a platform is to make sure we give fans the features that make their gaming experience better, and to give developers the tools to make the most of our chipset. We have to do both of those in balance."

This new set of libraries are available to developers right now, Harrison said. As mentioned, Destiny is already making use of it. But Harrison expects other games due out in time for Christmas will also benefit.

Lobb added that he thought the decision to sell Xbox One without Kinect was "super smart", but he remains a big fan of the sensor.

"So, I love Kinect," he said. "To me, it's not the thousand things it does. I record s*** all the time and I say, 'Xbox, on.' So for me, those two things, the hundred bucks doesn't matter for me. For a lot of people it does. And so we've got to give you an option to pick. Do you want to say, 'Xbox, on?' Do you want to say, 'Xbox, record that?' Do you want to dance? No? Then you don't need the device. I think that's super smart."

READ FULL ARTICLE
 
"So, I love Kinect," he said. "To me, it's not the thousand things it does. I record s*** all the time and I say, 'Xbox, on.' So for me, those two things, the hundred bucks doesn't matter for me. For a lot of people it does. And so we've got to give you an option to pick. Do you want to say, 'Xbox, on?' Do you want to say, 'Xbox, record that?' Do you want to dance? No? Then you don't need the device. I think that's super smart."
If an Xbox exec said this during the Mattrick regime they would've been publicly executed.
 

le.phat

Member
Lobb talks about a GPU reserve, but later addresses the RAM. Is he talking about GPU RAM ? Did the Kinect reserve GPU 'resources' as well as system RAM ?
 

Gori

Member
Do you want to say, 'Xbox, on?' Do you want to say, 'Xbox, record that?' Do you want to dance? No? Then you don't need the device. I think that's super smart."

The 3D camera that once was the future of gaming is now, literally, a dancing peripheral.
 
I don't see how do they do it. If you have a kinect and the game still uses kinect, then it won't have this 10 percent bump? But only if the game doesn't use kinect, then it will have more resources? Does that mean that developers will have to axe Kinect features if they want to have the most power?
 
Bungie, has already been able to increase the resolution and frame-rate of its game, Destiny, on Xbox One, to hit 1080p30 - matching the PlayStation 4 version

So much for the 60fps ps4 version :(
 

ZehDon

Member
Lobb talks about a GPU reserve, but later addresses the RAM. Is he talking about GPU RAM ? Did the Kinect reserve GPU 'resources' as well as system RAM ?
Yeah, the GPU resources were the big hog, apparently, but it wasn't just Kinect eating them up.
"Xbox One has a conservative 10 per cent time-sliced reservation on the GPU for system processing. This is used both for the GPGPU processing for Kinect and for the rendering of concurrent system content such as snap mode," Microsoft technical fellow Andrew Goossen told us.
In any case, any improvement is good for Xbone users, frankly.
 
I don't see how do they do it. If you have a kinect and the game still uses kinect, then it won't have this 10 percent bump? But only if the game doesn't use kinect, then it will have more resources? Does that mean that developers will have to axe Kinect features if they want to have the most power?

Let's be honest here, even if it WERE the most powerful of the two consoles (which it isn't), do you really think any Kinect-focused devs would be pushing the system to its limits and somehow need that extra 10%? Methinks not. Kinect games are not huge open-world adventures that require lots of system resources. They're party games, fitness games, or on-rails games. Those don't require much ooomf.

As for other games, yes the devs have to axe Kinect incorporation (voice commands, etc) in order to tap into those extra resources/processing cycles/w.e.
 

cchum

Member
Lobb talks about a GPU reserve, but later addresses the RAM. Is he talking about GPU RAM ? Did the Kinect reserve GPU 'resources' as well as system RAM ?

I read it as that. It has to have some kind of libraries in RAM that it accesses, (skeleton or voice).
 

Widge

Member
If an Xbox exec said this during the Mattrick regime they would've been publicly executed.

Not sure about it. His angle was that he loves and uses it but that you should always have the choice. The Mattrick angle was "you must love and use this".
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I don't see how do they do it. If you have a kinect and the game still uses kinect, then it won't have this 10 percent bump? But only if the game doesn't use kinect, then it will have more resources? Does that mean that developers will have to axe Kinect features if they want to have the most power?

yes.

The problem now is that if your game doesn't use gesture based kinect controls, then tough - the system is still reserving GPU time just in case. So that is completely wasted performance.

With this update, if your game doesn't use kinect gestures, you can get that reserved power to use for whatever you want.

Obviously if you have a kinect game that uses gestures, then you'll still need this - but that is things like kinect sports or dance central etc. None of that changes.

TBH it is how it should have been in the first place.
 

sangreal

Member
I don't see how do they do it. If you have a kinect and the game still uses kinect, then it won't have this 10 percent bump? But only if the game doesn't use kinect, then it will have more resources? Does that mean that developers will have to axe Kinect features if they want to have the most power?

Voice works in all games. If a game wants to use the camera recognition they need to spend processing power which is just common sense. Before that power was just reserved whether they did anything with it or not
 
Voice works in all games. If a game wants to use the camera recognition they need to spend processing power which is just common sense. Before that power was just reserved whether they did anything with it or not

Isn't it Kinect that made the voice work? Or is sound input independent from it on middleware level?
 
Voice works in all games. If a game wants to use the camera recognition they need to spend processing power which is just common sense. Before that power was just reserved whether they did anything with it or not

I don't think so. I could be wrong but I'm reading it as if the devs of Title A disable the Kinect in that game to tap into that extra power, voice commands DO NOT work in that game. They only start working again when you minimize the game to bring up the dashboard.

So in games that don't support Kinect, 'xbox record that' will not work. As if it really matters.

And seriously, what the hell does "can bounce" even mean?
 

derFeef

Member
I still call BS on the 10% part. I guess we will know the truth eventually.

And how will we know how much percent exactly it is? Maybe it's 9,7% - maybe it's 10.2 % ?

I don't think it will be significant console power wise, maybe more significant as a bullet point on a fan list.

I would call getting a game to 1080p which was not possible without the update pretty significant for console games.
 

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
I don't think it will be significant console power wise, maybe more significant as a bullet point on a fan list.

I would call getting a game to 1080p which was not possible without the update pretty significant for console games.

Well let's see them patch COD or something already released to 1080.
 

Ape

Banned
And how will we know how much percent exactly it is? Maybe it's 9,7% - maybe it's 10.2 % ?



I would call getting a game to 1080p which was not possible without the update pretty significant for console games.

9.99999 = 10
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
this bit is great

How games use the extra horsepower will be up to developers, Lobb added. One, Bungie, has already been able to increase the resolution and frame-rate of its game, Destiny, on Xbox One, to hit 1080p30 - matching the PlayStation 4 version.

implies that suddenly the XB1 is on par with PS4, when realistically that 10% won't give huge gains. Destiny was most likely already aiming for 1080p/30 and that improvement just helped cement it - 10% won't be enough for jumping from 900p to 1080p for instance.
 

derFeef

Member
implies that suddenly the XB1 is on par with PS4, when realistically that 10% won't give huge gains. Destiny was most likely already aiming for 1080p/30 and that improvement just helped cement it - 10% won't be enough for jumping from 900p to 1080p for instance.

Not really?
This specific game will run at the same resolution and framerate - nothing got mentioned regarding both consoles power in comparison. I would not be surprised if the PS4 version would still look and run better. We know it's more powerful.
 
this bit is great



implies that suddenly the XB1 is on par with PS4, when realistically that 10% won't give huge gains. Destiny was most likely already aiming for 1080p/30 and that improvement just helped cement it - 10% won't be enough for jumping from 900p to 1080p for instance.

Exactly, 900p is 0.69 of 1080p, meaning that it would require 31 percent increase in bandwith and everything related. Destiny either was already pretty close to 1080x30 in xbone, or was aiming at that from the start.
 

JaggedSac

Member
Not according to the article.

I don't think so. I could be wrong but I'm reading it as if the devs of Title A disable the Kinect in that game to tap into that extra power, voice commands DO NOT work in that game. They only start working again when you minimize the game to bring up the dashboard.

So in games that don't support Kinect, 'xbox record that' will not work. As if it really matters.

And seriously, what the hell does "can bounce" even mean?



Here:

"Lots of people ask, 'so, you're taking back the GPU reserve for Kinect. Well, does that mean I can't say, 'Xbox, record that?' No. You can always say that," Microsoft Studios creative director Ken Lobb told Eurogamer.

"So if someone says, 'Xbox record that,' it will work on 100 per cent of the games, if you have a Kinect."
 

eso76

Member
optional kinect.

Super smart.

The amount of energy and resources Microsoft spent designing and developing a wrong concept and the even greater amount of energy and resources they are now throwing away to rectify the original design or otherwise make the console more appealing than the competition is just unbelievable.


At this rate Microsoft will just release an xboxOne 1.5 next year and ask developers to stick to 720p or 900p for xboxone games and include a 1080p and/or 60fps option for the 1.5 version :p


"Lots of people ask, 'so, you're taking back the GPU reserve for Kinect. Well, does that mean I can't say, 'Xbox, record that?' No. You can always say that,"

* you can. It will not work, but that shouldn't stop you from saying that whenever you want. Here, i'll say that right now even if i'm at work and i don't even have an xbox one.

Seriously, this is not clear. I guess they are implying it will work AFTER minimizing the game, otherwise this doesn't make much sense to me.

EDIT: ok, so visual and gesture disabled, voice still enabled
 

sangreal

Member
I don't think so. I could be wrong but I'm reading it as if the devs of Title A disable the Kinect in that game to tap into that extra power, voice commands DO NOT work in that game. They only start working again when you minimize the game to bring up the dashboard.

So in games that don't support Kinect, 'xbox record that' will not work. As if it really matters.

And seriously, what the hell does "can bounce" even mean?

Not according to the article.

We clearly aren't reading the same article then because this is specifically addressed in the OP
 

KainXVIII

Member
Because its not using the June SDK? Its not going to magically upres games or change already released games UNLESS the devs adhere to the new API functions in the newer SDK.

Game is not released yet, i wonder how much time you need to switch to newer SDK?
 

Lucreto

Member
If this is true then why is Sunset Overdrive running at 900p also Fable Legends may not hit 1080p.

I would not be surprised if Destiny runs at 1080p on Xbox but the textures are lower quality.
 

Fliesen

Member
i just read the OP, not the article itself, but did we learn anything new?

if devs want more power (dat 10%), their game can't use complex Kinect functions ingame. ... that was kind of a no-brainer, wasn't it?

the only new info i got from this was the fact that as soon as you hit the home-button, gesture control should work again. cool.

Also, 10% sure sounds like a lot, but a 11,1% bump (from 90%->100% is +11%) would boost 792p, which seems to be the current xbone sweet spot to ...

792*1408 = 1.115.136px
+11,1% = 1.239.039px, which rounds to about 834p.

900p could be bumped to 948p, accordingly.
So even if these 10% are accurate, it's no kind of magical secret sauce to automatically reach 1080p.
 
Can't wait to read more BS from misterxmedia on his blog about this. Some of his [insiders] are so funny it's unreal, I almost think the guy is that deluded that he makes the conversations up himself!
 
Did something change with Destiny? I thought the dev comment was we will get there as if they are trying to get to 1080p, have they officially announced that Destiny is 1080p?
 

TTOOLL

Member
Do you want to dance, GAF?

All the investment down the hole, that's just bad strategy and management. The graphics upgrade will be important though.
 
We clearly aren't reading the same article then because this is specifically addressed in the OP


Yeah I read it wrong. I read the part where he said it would work in 100% of the games, but then when he started talking about a developer making a game without Kinect not working with gesture and visual recognition stuff, I 'read into it' that this applied to the voice stuff too.

The extended question/answer about 'xbox record that' that's in the article itself I can't read due to work firewalls against gaming sites.

I pray they never block Neogaf. Hate our f'n firewalls. I work night shift damnit gotta have SOMETHING to keep me awake!

i just read the OP, not the article itself, but did we learn anything new?

if devs want more power (dat 10%), their game can't use complex Kinect functions ingame. ... that was kind of a no-brainer, wasn't it?

the only new info i got from this was the fact that as soon as you hit the home-button, gesture control should work again. cool.

Also, 10% sure sounds like a lot, but a 11,1% bump (from 90%->100% is +11%) would boost 792p, which seems to be the current xbone sweet spot to ...

792*1408 = 1.115.136px
+11,1% = 1.239.039px, which rounds to about 834p.

900p could be bumped to 948p, accordingly.
So even if these 10% are accurate, it's no kind of magical secret sauce to automatically reach 1080p.

You're extremely oversimplifying the development process. It's not like it's a direct 1:1 ratio of 'P's to processing power, like you can just multiply the 10% by the previous resolution FFS. Jesus I can't even code one damn thing but I know that.

So some games might ship with stuff like 'xbox , record that' disabled ?

Doesn't sound like that, no. I read it wrong.
 
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