There's a lot of poverty in Detroit and you managed to find a single one digging through the trash in struggling times. If that isn't cherry picking, I don't know what is.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dishonored 2 to feature prominent LGBT characters
- Thread starter theecakee
- Start date
There's a lot of poverty in Detroit and you managed to find a single one digging through the trash in struggling times. If that isn't cherry picking, I don't know what is.
GavinUK86
Member
He was a very stereotypical cliche gay man.
It's a much better action game than a stealth one, although that isn't to imply it's a bad stealth game.
They were asking how.
Can you perhaps link me a source? I find that hard to believe considering I always thought Dishonored had the original two Thief games as its main source of inspiration from the very start.
ZehDon
Gold Member
"Well, we never said he WASN'T bisexual. We just used his heterosexuality to establish the character and define his motivations. We didn't imply he was heterosexual."
C'mon, guys, this type of character work wouldn't fly in other instances. I'm all for positive characters outside of "straight white males", but this isn't good character writing or development for established characters. If Emily's gay or bi, super. She was a kid in the last game, and her sexuality wasn't established. Corvo's has been.
GavinUK86
Member
They weren't asking me but I'll give you my two cents. Google stereotypical gay man and that's what Dorian acted like. Iron Bull on the other hand was a well written character as was Sera.
I disagree. It's a better stealth game. Less choice but better implemented.
Another instance of great writing for a videogame character was in ps4 Golden, until they
wussed out at the end and made him not gay. The exploration of his insecurities and even self-hatred in the actual gameplay were fantastic. I still feel they betrayed the character with his ending. I'm not sure about Naoto's arc. I think the story could have been better if she was trans, but I don't have a great handle on that character because I found her dull.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
not written well enough
you can only post if it's one of the best posts written in GAF, if not then you're just trying too hard to be included
No it hasnt.
He is likely straight but him being in love with a woman does not in any way denote him as a heterosexual man.
This is one of the reasons Bi folk have such a hard time because they can't just be themselves. If they get with a woman they are straight and if they ever look at a man then they are just refusing to accept themselves.
Corvo can totally be straight but get the hetero normative bull put of here.
-duskdoll-
Member
???
Being with a woman doesn't establish your sexuality, it just shows that you like women. Bisexuals and pansexuals like women.
How... do you think bisexuality works? They never used "his heterosexuality" to establish anything. They used opposite sex attraction. They never, ever used heterosexuality. You just assumed.
Sure, most people assumed. That's why it's called heteronormativity. That is, when people assume anyone is straight unless proven otherwise. Being with someone of the opposite sex does not, in fact, prove you are straight. It just proves you are not exclusively engaged in same sex attraction.
I mean, Corvo was basically committed to one person in the last game, as you have argued multiple times. He probably wouldn't be expressing a lot of same sex attraction, even if he was experiencing it, because bisexuality doesn't mean someone has no control and must hit on everything that moves, so that it's easily identifiable and could not possibly exist without being stated outright in the first game.
I mean, he's probably straight, just by law of averages. But nothing in the games themselves makes that a certainty.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Nope, sorry, not what's happening here, and frankly I find this kind of call out a poor attempt to dismiss. If an entire game's worth of character establishment, plot, narrative and exposition has transpired, and nothing - literally nothing - has been shown to even hint that a man in a prominent heterosexual relationship has bisexual orientation or inclination, it's not "hetero-normative" to presume that the character's sexual orientation is hetero. It is simply what has been shown to the audience. This isn't the real world, this is story telling. And relying on "what has not been expressly told" to form major plot or character shifts is straight up bad story telling and character work.
That is exactly what it is to be hetero normative.
Again Corvo has bern shown to be attracted to women, he was not show to be hetero sexual unless specifically stated by himself or his creators.
It's just assumed he is Heterosexual with nothing other then the assumption because he was into one woman he is explicitly straight.
DOWN
Banned
Yikes @ this post
Monocle
Member
Speak for yourself! I absolutely love being marginalized, erased, tokenized, stereotyped, and politicized in entertainment. Who wouldn't tbh?
Isn't that the truth.
I kinda hate Naughty Dog's gameplay, but I enjoyed tlou and loooved the dlc. I can't bring myself to face another uncharted and I think that has to do with the stock characters.
-duskdoll-
Member
The only thing we know about Corvo in terms of his sexuality is that he had a daughter with the Empress. That's it. Nothing else "hints" that he is straight.
I can see your position, but the language from most of the people who hope Emily is straight is still outrageously dehumanizing even if its wellmeaning. The idea that if Emily is a lesbian its not actually representation, half hearted representation that barely counts, or at worst a hurtful stereotype in a medium where representation as a whole is in the gutter is garbage. Perhaps I have too much faith in the writers of Dishonored, but i dont buy the arguments that they cant make it work in their fictional world that happens to mirror some elements of our own history, or itd be pandering to the male gaze. Perhaps if every other game starred a lesbian instead of a few extremely recent drops in a bucket that in no means counts as the problem being solved, then sure maybe I can see the idea its halfhearted. But in the current climate I would think that a lesbian lead in a big AAA game by a major publisher could be seen as being as progressive as a straight girl who is tomboyish in a big AAA game by a major publisher instead of somehow being run of the mill. I hope you can agree even with your position.
When we talk about representation at the core of it we talk about actual people and theres no need to step on actual people who get stepped on in most aspects of their lives just to present your position as the truly progressive one for internet brownie points.
That really doesn't lend credence to that assertion. Dorian was essentially a bourgeois alcoholic.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
The second post of this thread was bish predicting someone would use the "shoehorned" excuse to argue that they shouldn't do this at all, unless it's well written, because devs abstain from doing white characters when they are not well written... Wait a second.
He truly is the greatest.
That quote explains a lot. One thing that bugged me about Dishonored was that while nonlethal play was presented as a major part of the game, the tools and powers available to you were heavily skewed towards lethal; there were a bunch of powers and tools you simply couldn't use if you were going nonlethal.
Of course this is hardly unique to Dishonored.
Yes and no. I mean, sure, Dorian had some of the traits that people may think of as stereotypically gay but I'd say his character was far more than a walking stereotype and, at the end of the day, there are gay men who are flamboyant and there are gay man who are vain. Should they not be represented in media merely because they have some of the traits that are often associated with the gay stereotype? If anything, I think the whole "straight-acting"/"hetero-like" movement within the gay community is far more harmful than portraying a gay character as flamboyant (especially when BioWare has also created gay characters who were not).
Is it? Ive always thought that progress only happens when people become emotionally connected to other people. It is best irl, but stories are important as well. And I don't think that emotional connection happens with characters or irl people who are on the periphery or mere comic relief. I could totally be wrong, of course.
BurgerDicks
Banned
Great, as long it dosent hit you over the head with it. Subtlety would be best here.
ZehDon
Gold Member
Not even remotely true. Corvo was shown to engage in heterosexual relationships. Following this, we had an entire game to show, hint, or in any way demonstrate an inclination of any type that could inform the audience that Corvo was not heterosexual. Literally anything at all. This did not occur. In the face of a lack of evidence, after an entire game's worth of character development, why would I assume something that wasn't even hinted at in contrast to what was shown? A single line of dialogue, an in-game note, a character's animation, a comment from the character's creator - anything that could be interpreted as even hinting that the man in a prominent heterosexual relationship is not heterosexual. It's not like bumping into someone on the street and making a blind assumption - I agree with you in that context, unquestionably. This is story telling - and the only thing that's been established about Corvo's sexuality over the course of the first game and in-universe 15 years since, is he engaged in heterosexual relationships. Lacking anything to the contrary after all this time, I'm not sure why you feel I shouldn't assume the character is heterosexual at this point.
Because you shouldn't just assume or label anyone.
Like if Corvo is straight that's cool I don't mind at all. However just because he showed attraction to one gender doesn't mean anything as we are not writing Corvo and it's possible for BI people to go years with out ever showing overt attraction to one gender.
It's not bad writting just because a writer chooses to express attraction to one gender and then later show a character is attracted to a different gender, it's something we see in reality alot.
My only problem is saying Corvo is one thing when it is us labeling him and not himself or his creator.
ZehDon
Gold Member
I think I see our sticking points now. Agreed on the bolded part, however we're not dealing with a real person - we're dealing with a character, and the rules of story telling apply. This is why I think we're disagreeing on the first point. There is nothing wrong with a writer showing a character's bisexuality at all. In terms of character establishment, though, a writer needs to establish certain aspects of the character early, lest the audience be incorrectly informed. One of my favourite bisexual characters - Oberyn Martell from Game of Thrones - is established as bisexual intelligently. He's introduced with his female companion, and then we're introduced to his attraction to men thereafter in a way that feels pretty natural. This worked perfectly, and Oberyn is an amazing character. But it works perfectly because these introductions didn't happen an entire instalment apart. Spacing establishment so far apart leads the audience into believing what they've been shown, and then rightfully feeling cheated when a contraction to that is introduced. The specifics of the contradiction are honestly irrelevant; an audience rarely likes to be told they're wrong for believing what the writer showed them. There are expections of course - M. Night Shyamalan's built a career out of telling audience they're wrong. But if Corvo was bisexual, I feel an entire game and some sixteen years in-universe is enough time for the creator's to inform the audience. Not doing so at this point, makes me feel an assumption that Corvo is anything other than what we have been shown doesn't make sense.
I don't think having characters as window dressing is good, but it's better than outright refusing to acknowledge they exist.
It's difficult to say what depictions of lesbian relationships are in need of when very few exist across any medium, and most only appear long enough for one of the two to die in order to give whatever story is being told higher stakes.
I don't disagree with your overall point, but to suggest that there are enough depictions of lesbian characters or stories done right to be sufficient would be absurd. Maybe if there were more than two women we could list as examples, we wouldn't have to pick and choose over which of them gets to be which thing at what moment.
Women, like characters who are people of color, must exist to satisfy some kind of missing function in narrative as a whole. Meanwhile there are so many men that generally they just get to ... exist.
KimonoNoNo
Member
Neither of the main characters are going to be expressly stated as being gay or otherwise. It's not how these immersive sim games work.
I've played through Dishonored and the sum total of Corvo's character is he's a badass who banged an Empress which he failed to protect and it's up to the player to fill in the blanks.
If I was a betting man I would put money on either a coven of lesbian witches, somebody from nobility or some head of a street gang. Also I'm not expecting it to be particularly subtle either, with the homosexuality of that character being the defining trait and plot point.
I've played through Dishonored and the sum total of Corvo's character is he's a badass who banged an Empress which he failed to protect and it's up to the player to fill in the blanks.
If I was a betting man I would put money on either a coven of lesbian witches, somebody from nobility or some head of a street gang. Also I'm not expecting it to be particularly subtle either, with the homosexuality of that character being the defining trait and plot point.
]
BIRDETTA
Character profiles, exploration of the scenery that makes you find a pre transition picture, private conversation with friends about "geting money for the surgery" or something like this (if you are passing the bechedel while on a private conversation it can be a joke about "you are lucky you don't menstruate" or something) ... or just write it badly like all your cis hetero characters
Zomba13
Member
I think it doesn't matter if Corvo is straight or bisexual, I think all that matters is he loved the Empress and loves his daughter and I just can't see him getting into any other relationship with a man or woman. Like, he went through all that in the first game to avenge his lover and save his daughter (and clear his name) and I just can't see him being all "hey dude/lady wanna make out?" or hitting on another character or even mentioning how good looking a guy/girl is, especially how it's all "it's been x years and this doesn't get easier. I still miss her every day", like he's not moved on, I can't buy him getting into another relationship so him being bisexual wouldn't matter at all because it wouldn't play out and would just seem like a throwaway trait.
That's just how I feel from the trailers seen and playing the first. I can't see him get with anyone in any capacity.
Emily though, anything goes for her, she was still a young kid in the first one and the question of her sexuality was never asked, answered or even a thought. I'd be all for it though.
That's just how I feel from the trailers seen and playing the first. I can't see him get with anyone in any capacity.
Emily though, anything goes for her, she was still a young kid in the first one and the question of her sexuality was never asked, answered or even a thought. I'd be all for it though.
Admiral Woofington
Member
I think you guys are setting yourself up for another 'female link' type of situation if you're trying to come up for reasons as to how Corvo is now bisexual. It's not impossible, but highly unlikely.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
It's not true that poeple didn't care. They did. I did. We just didn't have a voice back then. And it's important because representation is always a positive thing that works wonders in myriad of different ways, getting poeple to talk, stopping the LGBTQ community from feeling invisible, etc.
I absolutely want more LGBT characters in games... and then I think about games like The Division, where a certain character's revelation about their sexuality felt hugely forced. Times like that make me kind of understand those who are arguing that character diversity is feeling shoehorned (since I guess that's the secret word for this thread).
So yeah, I guess I'm not at a point yet where I can just instantly get excited about announcements like these. Cool, good for younow make the characters worthwhile and not just to pander to people like me.
So yeah, I guess I'm not at a point yet where I can just instantly get excited about announcements like these. Cool, good for younow make the characters worthwhile and not just to pander to people like me.
Monocle
Member
It's wonderful if you enjoy freeform gameplay. You're given a set of highly adaptable tools and set loose in a world where you're challenged to solve problems as creatively, or efficiently, as possible.
Also, if you're like me you'll find that it's way fun just to zip around with your teleport and toy with enemies using possession or time control or whatever.
I'm with you. I think it works best when the characters aren't designed around their sexual orientation. Like the creator doesn't just think "ok we're going to make a gay character, now what should she/he be like?". Just make a well written character who is just a human but could also happen to be non-heterosexual. I think TLoU did this well. Don't let the sexual orientation be the defining point of the character. It isn't in real life.
SchrodingerC
Member
Were there notable LGBT characters in the first game? It's been a few years since I've played it and all I can recall is that Overseer letter.
Should be interesting to see what Arkane comes up with for D2.
Should be interesting to see what Arkane comes up with for D2.
Sexuality can be important to some people. Real life has both. People come in all shapes, colours, sizes and personalities. For some being gay is a huge part of their identity, out and proud, considering the discrimination that they face every single day. (including the concern trolling in this thread.)
Sexuality is a big part of anyone's life, but usually not the defining part. And I don't know about the game's universe, but it could be that non-heterosexuals aren't discriminated against in it. I just don't want caricatures and stereotypical depictions which are more propable if the writers try to make the sexual orientation the front and center of a character.
SapphiCine
Member
This line of thinking only favors the majority. Should they roll dice to decide if a character is queer?
I definitely understand wanting quality representation but it's going to take active and not passive inclusion of queer characters to get there.
the_batman
Banned
is it really hard to believe one or some of the NPCs are gay?
Basically it means that you cannot have a different opinion about it, even ever so slightly, without being ridiculed, or worse.
Regarding this, I was more or less "thrown" into the LGBT scene (well, the lesbian scene for the most part) at a time when it was a taboo thing, quite a few years ago.. My boss in a small company was a relatively prominent spokesperson for the LGBT community in my country, and ran several sites about the topic, so because we got a close relationship, I had no choice but to try to understand. I survived, a lesson learnt about the blindness of prejudice and and an opened mind - and new friends.
The point I'm trying to make is, it seems to me (perhaps I'm wrong, I don't know, just a personal observation) that there was a lot more room for discussion and help to get enlightened from the scene at that time than here on gaf where ignorance and opinions is met with a surprising amount of harshness.
Flintty
Member
I get why this is important to people but really you can be what you want in most games without the dev explicitly telling you what the sexuality is of the character you're playing. If I play Halo I can choose to believe Chief is gay or straight, depending on my preference. Unless there's a mechanic specifically designed to tap into sexuality there isn't much, if any difference in gameplay. Yeah we'd know a male character is gay if they give him a camp voiceover but that's not really the right direction is it?
If gay characters were the norm and a dev announced that it would have straight characters it wouldn't change the game from 'on the fence' to 'day one' because that's stupid. It might still be a mediocre game, gender/sexuality doesn't change that.
My point? I support diversity, everybody/group/creed/race has a right to be represented in video games. But outside of race and gender, most of it is usually in the mind of the player unless there are specific story elements or mechanics which scream "I'm gay/straight".
If gay characters were the norm and a dev announced that it would have straight characters it wouldn't change the game from 'on the fence' to 'day one' because that's stupid. It might still be a mediocre game, gender/sexuality doesn't change that.
My point? I support diversity, everybody/group/creed/race has a right to be represented in video games. But outside of race and gender, most of it is usually in the mind of the player unless there are specific story elements or mechanics which scream "I'm gay/straight".
I guess the difference is a poorly-written LGBT character could be more damaging than a poorly-written straight character. Ideally people wouldn't let media influence their perceptions of people but... well...