-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Can we have better writing in our games, please?
- Thread starter Kodiak
- Start date
That sort of chaos sounds like a product of the production rather than the medium itself.
The point is, you should be asking for both and you should be thirsty for a game that does both in the same package.
I honestly don't expect any game to have great writing unless someone who is highly talented at both writing and game design is given Kojima-like control over an entire project. Otherwise there are just too many production twists and turns waiting to happen.
Also, I'll call out that "writing" is incredibly broad. In my case I'm referring to narrative composition.
This post makes me want to cry.
Also, I'll call out that "writing" is incredibly broad. In my case I'm referring to narrative composition.
This post makes me want to cry.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Yeah I'm talking about the dialogue specifically.
Humdinger
Gold Member
Good point. I'm a big fan of Uncharted's characterization and dialog, plotting and pacing. I think they do all that very well, for the genre they are in, and regardless of how absurd the scenarios are -- and actually, absurd scenarios are actually a part of this genre's heritage ... think Indiana Jones ... they aren't meant to be realistic.
Yes, I'd vote for Oxenfree, too. Really nicely done, especially for such a small team.
Agree with that as well. Throw TWD Season 1 in there, too, and Life is Strange (although the dialog could be hella cringey at points).
All of the elements really pull together to create such an intimate, personable, and naturally-flowing tale.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I couldn't finish Oxenfree cause I hated all the characters so damn much, especially the girl you played as. The writing was just bad. The entire game tried to have some sort of somber, spooky atmosphere and then you have your character spouting snarky wit at every opportunity. I guess I wasn't supposed to take anything serious maybe?
I wouldn't know what "good" writing constitutes but I am disappointed with the caliber of the stories this generation.
They are generally super boring or super predictable or in some cases not there at all.
Perhaps I have bad taste but to me both Xenosaga and Xenogears have some of the best stories in all of gaming and I'd love to have more stories of that caliber on my games (this is just me, but I enjoy complex / convoluted stories more than I do linear / regular ones).
Black Ops 3 story for instance I super liked...
They are generally super boring or super predictable or in some cases not there at all.
Perhaps I have bad taste but to me both Xenosaga and Xenogears have some of the best stories in all of gaming and I'd love to have more stories of that caliber on my games (this is just me, but I enjoy complex / convoluted stories more than I do linear / regular ones).
Black Ops 3 story for instance I super liked...
The fault also lies with reviewers and perhaps gamer culture more broadly. Critics are fine with shitting on Mafia 3 despite its great characters and interesting story, yet they have no problem handing out 9's, applause, and GOTYs to Rise of the Tomb Raider, which has without a doubt one of the worst narratives of this generation, if not all time.
UncleSporky
Member
I don't think it's possible for a game to be widely considered to have as good of writing as other forms of entertainment.
Not that it's impossible for games to have good writing, just that the gaming public will never consider them to be as good, even if they truly are.
Not that it's impossible for games to have good writing, just that the gaming public will never consider them to be as good, even if they truly are.
Schopenhauerian
Member
Have to agree here, as I mentioned in an earlier post.
Also, with respect to "gaming culture" more broadly, I think Steven Poole's thoughts on MGSV are worth considering, as I mentioned elsewhere.
That sounds awful.
The part about a writer trying to communicate context to the actor seems like it was backed up by an AMA that Jennifer Hale and a few other VAs did on Reddit a week or two ago. She said that almost all of her lines are cold reading, with no context given whatsoever, so it's extremely difficult to tell how they should be saying their lines.
Full stop: Couldn't disagree with you anymore than I possibly could. Alex was fantastic. And depending on how you played her, it massively changed the direction of dialogue. Especially since how the characters behave both towards you and each other and their very endings themselves rely entirely on how you play as Alex. There's a very serious side to her and a witty side to her. They come together at times to create a full person trying to weather the storm that is...well, Oxenfree. The whole thing was taken with such a poised combination of well-concocted drama revolving around such themes as *SPOILERS* and *SPOILERS* with a pitch perfect warping of realistic, clever, funny and at times heart-wrenching dialogue. It's easily some of the smoothest flowing dialogue in gaming. It was supposed to be taken seriously and at parts as a comedy and it balanced both perfectly. It's such a fantastically unique game. This isn't even getting into it's top-notch sound design, art direction, unique gameplay elements that incorporate directly into the plot (massive spoilers to explain) etc. etc that all help in telling the story. I'm sorry you couldn't see/enjoy it.
There is such a thing as juxtaposition in...well, any media form. And Oxenfree explored that in it's attitude. It'd be like getting angry at a movie like say....Evil Dead for having serious down time mixed in with the light silliness. Or saying that Tears for Fears "Mad World" is a bad song because it's so upbeat yet has such depressing lyrics. Oxenfree is similar in the sense that it's a whirlwind of different expressions in emotion. It does however have cohesive ties within all of the ways it expresses itself and overarching themes that, for me, ring on a personal level. It's not chaos for chaos's sake. (Not that I felt like Oxenfree was even chaotic, mind you) Like Mad World, it has a point.
Thanks for sharing this. Would be curious to know which games your friend has worked on!
I think people that try to think a little bit more about the problem realize it's not an easy task. And realizing it's not easy makes you appreciate even more the good number of games that still manage to get things right. The funny thing is that they can get things right in widly different manners. A Planescape is a totally different beast than a Metal Gear, but they both manage to do interesting things that couldn't be done in another medium. I'm more and more under the impression that some people are waiting for something extremely specific when they say "good writing", and in doing so, they probably won't ever be satisfied.
Humdinger
Gold Member
Not if they're writing novels.
Schopenhauerian
Member
For example, in relation to a point of contention from earlier in the thread:
Poole writes:
I've been bitching about game stories forever.. I'm to the point id rather listen to a audio book while enjoying some gameplay.
I think the big problem is just ai.. it's an interactive medium restricted by a non interactive medium. I want unique experiences where the game reacts to your play style and such. Instead we just get subpar Hollywood action flick stories that are already really lo on the totem pole.
I think the big problem is just ai.. it's an interactive medium restricted by a non interactive medium. I want unique experiences where the game reacts to your play style and such. Instead we just get subpar Hollywood action flick stories that are already really lo on the totem pole.
Uh.. probably making more than your average game writer.
Just give Amy Hennig all the writing jobs.
I would prefer it if most games had no story instead of trying to shoehorn awful writing just for the sake of being able to boast "hey this game has a story". I'm always surprised if I actually like a game's story.
I would prefer it if most games had no story instead of trying to shoehorn awful writing just for the sake of being able to boast "hey this game has a story". I'm always surprised if I actually like a game's story.
crazy monkey
Banned
game play is far more important to me. I would rather company save money on cinematic and just focus on core game play. Games are getting so expensive to make and take so long to make as it is. If there is a story in the game then yes I wish it is a good one but I have never had problem with the story much.
Humdinger
Gold Member
Doubt it. Average advance for a book is 10K, and it's less if you are trying to write serious fiction. Most books don't even make their advance back.
I agree that game stories aren't the best the could be, especially because interactivity allows for greater potential in this medium. Bioshock, for example, is probably one of my favorite stories in anything because of how it does something that could uniquely be only achieved in a game. Jonathan Nolan (brother of Chris Nolan and current showrunner of Westworld) even called it “amongst the most literate and thoughtful pieces of entertainment I’ve seen in the last ten years.”.
I also finished Wolfenstein: The New Order recently and it was surprisingly well-written. One of the things that made it so I think was the convenience of its villains, most games make efforts to or not at all to create a villain that you absolutely hate or one that you can understand, but with Wolfenstein, well there fucking Nazis, watching them do all these horrific things in the games evoked a hatred I hat not felt for fictional villains since Joffrey. It really created that motivation for the player to want to stop these monsters and kill them in the most brutal/outlandish ways possible.
I also finished Wolfenstein: The New Order recently and it was surprisingly well-written. One of the things that made it so I think was the convenience of its villains, most games make efforts to or not at all to create a villain that you absolutely hate or one that you can understand, but with Wolfenstein, well there fucking Nazis, watching them do all these horrific things in the games evoked a hatred I hat not felt for fictional villains since Joffrey. It really created that motivation for the player to want to stop these monsters and kill them in the most brutal/outlandish ways possible.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Let's get better framerates first before we even begin to talk about better writing.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The writing in A Night in the Woods is amazeballs. It's really punchy and pithy without being pretentious.
chaobreaker
Member
Edit: Wrong thread.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Do what I do: skip all cutscenes. Problem solved.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
I don't necessarily even see this as case of "narrative versus gameplay"
If somebody has an interest in writing a good story, they... well, write it. They get a career as a novelist or whatever. They publish books. If you want to tell your story visually, you become a film maker. You get a camera and hire your friends and direct them.
Very few people say, "I want to tell a good story!" and then start making a video game.
It's always the other way around -- games like Crysis, or Gears of War, or heck, even Half-Life start out as games first and then a writer is brought in to flesh out characters and the world. But it's always felt to me like writers are never really part of the game design process, they're always this separate entity that operates in parallel to the development team, and when the development team changes something, the writer has to bend to their will, not the other way around.
There are exceptions to those rules, but they are usually kind of niche things. Important none-the-less in their own way, sure, but all I'm saying is that if somebody wants to tell a story, there are a lot "better" more established avenues than video games.
If somebody has an interest in writing a good story, they... well, write it. They get a career as a novelist or whatever. They publish books. If you want to tell your story visually, you become a film maker. You get a camera and hire your friends and direct them.
Very few people say, "I want to tell a good story!" and then start making a video game.
It's always the other way around -- games like Crysis, or Gears of War, or heck, even Half-Life start out as games first and then a writer is brought in to flesh out characters and the world. But it's always felt to me like writers are never really part of the game design process, they're always this separate entity that operates in parallel to the development team, and when the development team changes something, the writer has to bend to their will, not the other way around.
There are exceptions to those rules, but they are usually kind of niche things. Important none-the-less in their own way, sure, but all I'm saying is that if somebody wants to tell a story, there are a lot "better" more established avenues than video games.
DevilDog
Member
You need more BioWare in your life.
They have fallen a bit the past few years but they're still great. Hoping andromeda can take them back to their former glory.
The mass effect trilogy and Dragon age origins have some of the best writing you'll ever see.
But yeah, gaming has been plagued by bad, terrible writing since the beginning, and has attracted the corresponding people. I only care about gameplay, I skip cutscenes, I don't care about bad writing or even love the bad writing.
They have fallen a bit the past few years but they're still great. Hoping andromeda can take them back to their former glory.
The mass effect trilogy and Dragon age origins have some of the best writing you'll ever see.
But yeah, gaming has been plagued by bad, terrible writing since the beginning, and has attracted the corresponding people. I only care about gameplay, I skip cutscenes, I don't care about bad writing or even love the bad writing.