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Android, iOS, WP8 phone debate thread

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coldfoot

Banned
I don't understand.

You're signed in as online - someone sends you a message.

...

Then what happens? How does this impede video conferencing? You're sorta skipping some middle element here I feel.

Depending who that someone is you might have to interrupt what you're doing and respond to them. It also becomes an annoying notification center item.

Not the same as a phone call since people intuitively understand you might not pick up. Not the same as a text message as people intuitively understand they might not get a response right away. For many people, especially older, being online on Gtalk = being in front of your computer and available to chat.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
What the hell is going on in here?

I kind of came in here late, but what I've seen so far is coldfoot talking about the quality of facetime, and how it's integration into iOS makes it very good - along with it's ease of use. I'm not sure how Skype came into play, but he feels it's inferior to facetime. Same with hangouts - as they tie into gtalk, and having an IM service tied into your video conferencing makes it bad.... I think.

I really don't get that. All I know is hangouts is so damn modular that you can get some very amazing apps tied into it, and that it's conferencing functionality makes it a beast.
Depending who that someone is you might have to interrupt what you're doing and respond to them. It's also an annoying notification center item.

Not the same as a phone call since people intuitively understand you might not pick up. Not the same as a text message as people intuitively understand they might not get a response right away.

Is your reasoning REALLY 'Facetime is better than hangouts - because with hangouts if I get IM'd by someone, depending on how important the message is, I might have to stop whatever I am doing and respond'.

REALLY brah? How is that in anyway

1. Something that impedes video conferencing functionality
2. A bad thing
 

coldfoot

Banned
REALLY brah? How is that in anyway

1. Something that impedes video conferencing functionality
2. A bad thing

Because IM's are the kind of things that are never really serious (you'd get a phone call for serious stuff) but your mom/girlfriend will not like if they don't get a response right away. For example, you're facetiming with your partner and your mother IM's you, but you just don't want to talk to her at the moment. You can't say that to your mom, she will get offended. You can't not respond to her, she will get offended. You can't explain to her that it's your phone does it, she won't understand because she's using gtalk from her gmail page and thinks you're doing the same. It would be better if she just did not know you were online at that point. That is why I do not want people to see my status and exactly why facetime is better in this regard. It's the freedom to be able to connect to anyone, but still maintain the privacy of your current status.

Doesn't matter much though since I'm going to get rid of my touchpad for an ipad mini and will be back to a no-android household. Hopefully forever.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Because IM's are the kind of things that are never really serious (you'd get a phone call for serious stuff) but your mom/girlfriend will not like if they don't get a response right away. For example, you're facetiming with your partner and your mother IM's you, but you just don't want to talk to her at the moment. You can't say that to your mom, she will get offended. You can't not respond to her, she will get offended. You can't explain to her that it's your phone does it, she won't understand because she's using gtalk from her gmail page and thinks you're doing the same. It would be better if she just did not know you were online at that point. That is why I do not want people to see my status and exactly why facetime is better in this regard. It's the freedom to be able to connect to anyone, but still maintain the privacy of your current status.

....

I swear to god if you're not trolling me right now - I will rage-shit myself.
 

Zeppu

Member
Because IM's are the kind of things that are never really serious (you'd get a phone call for serious stuff) but your mom/girlfriend will not like if they don't get a response right away. For example, you're facetiming with your partner and your mother IM's you, but you just don't want to talk to her at the moment. You can't say that to your mom, she will get offended. You can't not respond to her, she will get offended. You can't explain to her that it's your phone does it, she won't understand because she's using gtalk from her gmail page and thinks you're doing the same. It would be better if she just did not know you were online at that point. That is why I do not want people to see my status and exactly why facetime is better in this regard. It's the freedom to be able to connect to anyone, but still maintain the privacy of your current status.

Doesn't matter much though since I'm going to get rid of my touchpad for an ipad mini and will be back to a no-android household. Hopefully forever.

Tell your mom to go to https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#settings/labs and enable Green Robot. Then explain to her that whenever your icon is a robot instead of a circle, you're on the phone and not necessarily able to respond.

You honestly don't see WHY announcing your online status to the world may not sometimes be desirable for some people? Must be the younger generation.

Then just stay invisible. What's the problem?
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
You honestly don't see WHY announcing your online status to the world may not sometimes be desirable for some people? Must be the younger generation.

I really don't want to get into this - but you provided the weirdest most niche example of some obsessive mother - and used that to claim that facetime is a better video conferencing tool than hangouts.

Because your mom is a bit hard to reason with - cause if you dodge her texts and phone calls, no worries - but if you don't respond to her IM within... a few minutes? She'll flip on you.

Really guy? That's your deciding factor on a video chat's quality?
 

coldfoot

Banned
I really don't want to get into this - but you provided the weirdest most niche example of some obsessive mother - and used that to claim that facetime is a better video conferencing tool than hangouts.
Facetime is much better than anything else for 1 on 1 video conferencing.

Because your mom is a bit hard to reason with - cause if you dodge her texts and phone calls, no worries - but if you don't respond to her IM within... a few minutes? She'll flip on you.
There are plenty of people who are hard to reason with when it comes to technology. I'd rather not spend the time and energy to teach them.
 
I think, at some point, people will realize that not everyone wants to micromanage their phone, which is a perfect valid reason to prefer Facetime... with the immediate drawback that most people who own iPhones don't even know it's there, and there's a whole bunch of people who don't own iPhones.
 

Sarye

Member
what happened in here!?

I can see coldfoot's point about gtalk and facetime. Sometimes you want to talk to someone without announcing your presence that you are online. Of course you can set yourself to invisible and it'll work the same. Plus having facetime integrated with the device is pretty powerful. Similarly like iMessage, it just works. You don't need a separate app to use it.

But that's about all I agree with coldfoot.

Skype has it's issues... but it has been a godsend for me. The fact that it can be used on any device is HUGE. Whether it is a mac, or windows, or tablets or phones they all support it. Sure the quality of the videochat is not as good, but that's not the purpose of skype. It is to quickly and easily connect with family and loved ones. The fact that skype can be installed on your grandmas crappy pc* is already a huge benefit over facetime. Saying, "lol grandma, just buy a mac" is sometimes not feasible. Not everyone is made of money.
 

Zeppu

Member
I don't have to call my mother and walk her through some steps and then tell her what it means when using Facetime. Then repeat this process for everyone who is like her.

I still don't understand why your mother is offended when she sends you a message and don't respond when it's possible that you honestly didn't see it, and doesn't get offended when she gets a read receipt for iMessage.
 

Angst

Member
I'd prefer it if my phone was in mandatory airplane mode all the time. Then if my mom calls she'll just get voice mail and then when she sends my step dad over to give me his piece of mind I can explain that I didn't answer because the phone isn't working.
 

coldfoot

Banned
what happened in here!?
I can see coldfoot's point about gtalk and facetime. Sometimes you want to talk to someone without announcing your presence that you are online. Of course you can set yourself to invisible and it'll work the same. Plus having facetime integrated with the device is pretty powerful. Similarly like iMessage, it just works. You don't need a separate app to use it.
Setting your status invisible is only a crappy workaround, because:

1. You will have to micromanage your status, which is a hassle and you're human so you're bound to forget it.
2. You won't get any incoming video chats when invisible. Which means if you set and forget being invisible, no one will be able to contact you.

I want my video conferencing to work EXACTLY like a phone call, and Facetime does that perfectly. The benefits of having facetime work just like a phone call is simple, it's very easy to explain it to people, they are familiar with the concept of a phone call. In fact they still ask me if it's really free :)
 

Zeppu

Member
No one can video chat with you when you're invisible.

Sorry didn't see this part.

You still get hangout calls if you're invisible. In fact, if you don't like gtalk at all, you could exclusively use hangouts for video calls. And it works on more platforms than facetime.
 

coldfoot

Banned
Sorry didn't see this part.

You still get hangout calls if you're invisible.

No one I know uses Google+, they use gtalk because it's been around for a while. I don't have a Google+ account either and won't create one anytime soon. The other social network suits me just fine.
 

coldfoot

Banned
you really do love apple. they make good products!
You really love Microsoft :)

Actually, I am definitely warming up to WP8 after using Windows 8 myself. I hated on it before, but after experiencing the smoothness of Windows 8 metro, and seeing how similar it is to iOS in philosophy, I'm sure I'd like it and maybe consider switching to it if Apple stagnates for a few years and the app situation drastically improves in the Microsoft ecosystem. I would pretty much never use Android.
 

Zeppu

Member
No one I know uses Google+, they use gtalk because it's been around for a while.

It's still the same video chat. Gtalk videochat and hangouts have been integrated, so much so that if go to gmail, and hover over a contact you get the card with the icon 'Start a hangout'. Works also on offline contacts.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Facetime is much better than anything else for 1 on 1 video conferencing.

I have not used facetime, so I can't really say one way or the other - but 2 things

1. Why?
2. Having video conferencing is extremely powerful - and the fact that it is available on all platforms makes it doubly so. And if we go off of mobile, the modularity of hangouts with all it's apps makes it even more powerful. A simple integrated video chat is nice and all, but it's feature poor.

There are plenty of people who are hard to reason with when it comes to technology. I'd rather not spend the time and energy to teach them.

And that carries over to all possible technological avenues - including facetime usage, iOS or OSX usage. People are technologically clumsy - very true.

But using that as a basis to debate the quality of a video conferencing service is ridiculous - as your mileage will definitely vary from person to person. If you want to say "facetime is better for me because my mom cannot be reasoned with, and on the offchance I am video conferencing with someone and she IM's me, she'll flip if I don't respond".

Then okay... still super weird... because how often does that happen? But okay. But you can't turn that into "Having IM tied into video chatting is a bad thing!".

I could so easily counter it with a positive - hey... having IM tied into video chatting is a great thing! I can easily go from one to the other without hopping through my apps, and I jump between chatting and video often. I can probably make up some more interesting reasons - but they would be compelling on only some levels.



edit: and to top it off, it looks like the solution to your problem is to go invisible - and your specific issue with hangouts is completely resolved.
 

Sarye

Member
Setting your status invisible is only a crappy workaround, because:

1. You will have to micromanage your status, which is a hassle and you're human so you're bound to forget it.
2. You won't get any incoming video chats when invisible. Which means if you set and forget being invisible, no one will be able to contact you.

I want my video conferencing to work EXACTLY like a phone call, and Facetime does that perfectly. The benefits of having facetime work just like a phone call is simple, it's very easy to explain it to people, they are familiar with the concept of a phone call. In fact they still ask me if it's really free :)

umm.. I was agreeing with you. Setting to offline is a possible workaround but not ideal. You really like to argue for the sake of arguing don't you?

No one I know uses Google+, they use gtalk because it's been around for a while. I don't have a Google+ account either and won't create one anytime soon. The other social network suits me just fine.

So you don't have gmail? Because you are forced into it if you use gmail. But that's not really that important. Just because YOU don't use google+ doesn't mean other people don't... try 100+ million people. I personally don't use google+ either. But I can rationally see other people using things I don't.
 

coldfoot

Banned
I have not used facetime, so I can't really say one way or the other
I have used both extensively so I know what I am talking about. The video/audio quality of facetime + smooth frame rate hasn't been beaten on any video conferencing app I have used.

It's still the same video chat. Gtalk videochat and hangouts have been integrated, so much so that if go to gmail, and hover over a contact you get the card with the icon 'Start a hangout'. Works also on offline contacts.
"I'm going to call you" is a lot easier to understand and explain than "I am going to create a chat room so we can talk." Especially when explaining it to your mom and what she has to do with that invite she received. Facetime is just like a phone call, phone rings and she answers it. You're going through all those workarounds when the simpler iOS solution is better.
 

Talon

Member
Let's not pretend Google Hangouts are a flawless experience. I've had so many tech savvy friends unable to join due to the applet installer hanging up or whatnot.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
I have used both extensively so I know what I am talking about. The video/audio quality of facetime + smooth frame rate hasn't been beaten on any video conferencing app I have used.

*shrug* I'll look it up online and see what the consensus is. Your objectivity is in question here bro.


"I'm going to call you" is a lot easier to understand and explain than "I am going to create a chat room so we can talk." Especially when explaining it to your mom and what she has to do with that invite she received. Facetime is just like a phone call, phone rings and she answers it. You're going through all those workarounds when the simpler iOS solution is better.

Okay - again this just goes back to my original point. This is super duper anecdotal, and pretty silly at that. In gmail if she wants to video conference you from her computer - she can just press the video conference button. No extra work, no hassle. And if you're on your phone - you'll get a notification (heck, on Android, it's a ringing notification).
 

Sarye

Member
How so? I have gmail but never been forced into a Google+ account. I never use a web browser to check my e-mail though if that's what you're asking.

may I ask.. how do you check gmail then?

One thing you keep harping is that facetime is better because of the quality. Everyone else is arguing that quality of the video doesn't make facetime better but usability. If someone I know doesn't have an apple product then we can't facetime period. How is that better? On the flipside, you can bet he/she has some sort of device that can run skype. I fail to see why this is hard to understand.

And talk about ease of use. Parents and Grandmas have been using skype for a long time so I don't see how you can use that argument in favor of facetime.
 

coldfoot

Banned
Okay - again this just goes back to my original point. This is super duper anecdotal, and pretty silly at that. In gmail if she wants to video conference you from her computer - she can just press the video conference button. No extra work, no hassle. And if you're on your phone - you'll get a notification (heck, on Android, it's a ringing notification).

You don't deal with many older people do you? Geeks think everyone else is a geek as well, and it's way easier for her to just pick up the phone and call me, voice or video.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
You don't deal with many older people do you? Geeks think everyone else is a geek as well, and it's way easier for her to just pick up the phone and call me, voice or video.

If she's already in gmail, and she is IMing you to the point of annoyance/interrupting your video chats - all she needs to do is in the chat box press the button that represents video calling. That's it. She's done.

Let's not pretend Google Hangouts are a flawless experience. I've had so many tech savvy friends unable to join due to the applet installer hanging up or whatnot.

Of course, the experience is still VERY much not flawless - sometimes the servers are just down. It's very much still in it's infancy - if you want to use that as a point against it's quality, I'd completely understand that.

But... my mom might IM me while I am video chatting other people, and I don't want to respond but she'll get mad if I don't...
 

coldfoot

Banned
may I ask.. how do you check gmail then?
From my mail clients.

One thing you keep harping is that facetime is better because of the quality. Everyone else is arguing that quality of the video doesn't make facetime better but usability.
It's both.

And talk about ease of use. Parents and Grandmas have been using skype for a long time so I don't see how you can use that argument in favor of facetime.
It's a subpar experience where they had to wait for the other party to come online, and it was a pain to set up in the first place. Facetime just makes it better quality and convenient, it's the superior alternative. Of course you'll pay the Apple tax to use it.
 

Zeppu

Member
You don't deal with many older people do you? Geeks think everyone else is a geek as well, and it's way easier for her to just pick up the phone and call me, voice or video.

But didn't you just say that your mother is on Gmail and gets offended when she sees you online and you don't respond? All she has to do is press one button from there.

I don't understand how one second you're saying that if she sees you online on gtalk she'll talk to you and the next second it's too complicated to press the button right above the chat window.

At the end of the day, your point is that it's simpler to use facetime, but that's only provided that you know whoever is on the other side has an iPhone. Go explain to your non-geek friends that they won't be able to speak to your cousins or your siblings because they don't own an Apple device. Whatever usability advantages you're pointing out are trumped greatly by the fact that it's a service available from a small subset of devices, whereas with gtalk/hangout you can do exactly the same thing independent of platform if you're on a machine connected to the web.
 

Talon

Member
This is silly. I'm going to speak from my experience over the past year using different video chat services as my girlfriend was long distance.

Google Hangouts: Great for being multiple platform. Wishy-washy performance due to it being browser-based. Multiple callers (for motherfucking free) is fantastic. Pirate hats are awesome.

Facetime: Video quality is fantastic, but it's platform locked. Beyond easy to use.

Skype: Screen share is great. Video quality is somewhere above Hangouts but below Facetime. The application has become shittier with popups ever since Microsoft bought it.
 

coldfoot

Banned
If she's already in gmail, and she is IMing you to the point of annoyance/interrupting your video chats - all she needs to do is in the chat box press the button that represents video calling. That's it. She's done.
No, can't do that when I am invisible (crappy Android workaround to not announcing your status to the world). She has to HOVER her mouse over my offline contact in the gtalk contact list, and then click on the video chat icon. Then, it will pop-up another website (if her browser doesn't block it) where you have to click on another button to initiate the hangout. It will also run Java at that moment, she's asking questions like what is a hangout, etc.

Then if I don't answer, it does not necessarily end. If she tries it again without closing the hangout pop-up, it will say she's already in a hangout.

These are all just workarounds to fit the Gtalk IM service into a proper videoconferencing program. None of them are as usable as Facetime, end of story.
 

Milchjon

Member
I'm totally looking forward to deeply integrated Skype in WP8. Seems to look great:

20120906_skype_fuer_wp8.png
 

Sarye

Member
It's a subpar experience where they had to wait for the other party to come online
wat... If skype is installed on phone you get push notifications. It's always on as long as the phone is on. I've used it extensively as did my parents. You're always online unless you specifically set it not to.

and it was a pain to set up in the first place. Facetime just makes it better quality and convenient, it's the superior alternative. Of course you'll pay the Apple tax to use it.
Convenient.. just shell out $200 + $60/Month for phone or $1000 for a computer. You and I have two different definitions of convenient.

On ANOTHER note. AT&T is unveiling a lot of their WP8 devices including the Lumia 920. Can't wait to see more of this phone.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
So if you're invisible because you're afraid of getting messaged by your mother while you're in a video chat, and your mom wants to video chat even though your invisible because you're too busy to talk to her, then your mom can't find the video chat button in the IM window even though she can't be in that window because you're invisible.

THAT'S why Gtalk is bad mkay?
 
You don't deal with many older people do you? Geeks think everyone else is a geek as well, and it's way easier for her to just pick up the phone and call me, voice or video.
Sorry but my parents and sister, none of who are tech geeks, can cope with hangouts absolutely fine. This is anecdotal but you seem to like dealing in those. Hangouts have been invaluable while we are living in three different cities being able to chat together each week. For that feature alone nothing else comes close.

Oh and none of us have macs or iPhones.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
No, can't do that when I am invisible (crappy Android workaround to not announcing your status to the world). She has to HOVER her mouse over my offline contact in the gtalk contact list, and then click on the video chat icon. Then, it will pop-up another website (if her browser doesn't block it) where you have to click on another button to initiate the hangout. It will also run Java at that moment, she's asking questions like what is a hangout, etc.

Then if I don't answer, it does not necessarily end. If she tries it again without closing the hangout pop-up, it will say she's already in a hangout.

These are all just workarounds to fit the Gtalk IM service into a proper videoconferencing program. None of them are as usable as Facetime, end of story.

Sigh.

Okay, here's what I am going to say about the subject. You've painted a very specific situation in which Hangouts are rendered nigh unusable. That's fine - that's your situation and as weird as hell as it sounds to me (your relationship with your mom and her messaging you is not something I can wrap my head around) - cool. That's your thing.

But - can you at least acknowledge that your burdens aren't something we all have to also deal with? That for some (i'd argue a LOT of people) the usabilty of hangouts vastly outstripes facetime? I can see if you want to make the argument that facetime is easier to use for older non-technically inclined people, out of their mobile platform. Sure - great. But I sincerely doubt there are many people who suffer anything remotely the same as what you do in regard to gtalk/hangout integration - that we have people who unreasonably IM us and expect immediate responses, thus our hangouts must be interrupted, and that those same people want to video chat us but we are actually invisible because we don't want them to bother us - and they're too technically unsavvy to understand 'hovering'.

Combine that with all of hangouts functionality - which, I think even you admit is much more robust than pretty much anything else out there - can you comprehend why your argument is falling on some deaf ears?
 

coldfoot

Banned
So if you're invisible because you're afraid of getting messaged by your mother while you're in a video chat, and your mom wants to video chat even though your invisible because you're too busy to talk to her, then your mom can't find the video chat button in the IM window even though she can't be in that window because you're invisible.

THAT'S why Gtalk is bad mkay?

1. I am invisible because I don't want to announce my status to the world. If they want to find out, they'll just have to call me. Just like in a PHONE. I still want everyone to be able to try reaching me, by voice or video chat, WITHOUT ANNOUNCING if I am actually available. Gtalk can't do that.

2. All the droid fans here suggest are workarounds that involve setting stuff up. I do not want to worry about setting stuff up. Sorry to use a cliche but Facetime just works the way I expect a video calling app should work. Piggybacking video conferencing on an IM service is something I will never stand for.
 
So if you're invisible because you're afraid of getting messaged by your mother while you're in a video chat, and your mom wants to video chat even though your invisible because you're too busy to talk to her, then your mom can't find the video chat button in the IM window even though she can't be in that window because you're invisible.

THAT'S why Gtalk is bad mkay?
Makes no fucking sense. And surely a phone call is more disruptive and less easy to ignore than an IM.
 

coldfoot

Banned
Makes no fucking sense. And surely a phone call is more disruptive and less easy to ignore than an IM.
Not when the expectations of the calling party are different for both, brought on by years of conditioning. When you don't respond to an IM, other party knows you're online and just not responding, because that's how they've been using it for the past 15 years.
 
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