GoddyofAus
Banned
Can children die in real life? Can they be killed in horrific ways? Can they be put in high controversial circumstances in film and art?
Yes, they should be able to.
Yes, they should be able to.
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Do you think children should be able to die in video games?
- Thread starter IHaveCandy
- Start date
Deified Data
Banned
That would be great.
Oftentimes though, I feel like taking that stance is more trouble than it's worth for a medium already under constant siege by moral guardians. In general I prefer games where most NPCs are unkillable, including kids. That said, in a game like Skyrim or Fallout 3 where you can wipe out an entire town while the children remain invincible...I find that annoying. Breaks immersion. I enjoyed being able to kill children in the first two Fallouts and basically having it forever alter the way you play the game between bounty hunter attacks and your rock-bottom karma level.
Oftentimes though, I feel like taking that stance is more trouble than it's worth for a medium already under constant siege by moral guardians. In general I prefer games where most NPCs are unkillable, including kids. That said, in a game like Skyrim or Fallout 3 where you can wipe out an entire town while the children remain invincible...I find that annoying. Breaks immersion. I enjoyed being able to kill children in the first two Fallouts and basically having it forever alter the way you play the game between bounty hunter attacks and your rock-bottom karma level.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Yes.
Roland1979
Junior Member
Absolutely. I don't like censorship. As long as the game itself gets it proper (16/18+) rating.
Monocle
Member
Yes, for consistency's sake. When you play a game like Fable 2 or Skyrim, you can behave as badly as you want to toward adults, yet the children you encounter are inexplicably invincible. What is this supposed to tell us? That violence toward children in games is more heinous than any other kind of simulated violence? That torturing adults in games is A-OK? I see no need for arbitrary line-drawing in mature entertainment that already features graphic depictions of murder.
I could not agree more.
None? None at all?
Shadow_Child
Member
I don't mind if it's part of the story being told, but I'd be very uncomfortable if I had to do it during the game play.
The whole argument only makes sense because we want to be able to do all kinds of morally questionable things in games in the first place. In WRPGs, GTA etc we can already kill and steal to our hearts content- why not add children? Why not add other crimes? Is it because some actions are somehow 'cooler' than others?
Somehow killing and stealing are seen as things we want a game world to let us do, why not other repulsive actions? We are happy to let teenagers play games where they absent-mindedly kill thousands of characters, as death is pretty much meaningless in a game where extra lives/continues have always been a common occurence, but a game where you, for example, murder children or drag people off the streets and rape them would be breaking a huge cultural taboo.
Generally murder and theft are seen as OK because assassins and criminals are seen as 'cool', their victims just people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just random game bots there for your amusement. Killing kids and other taboo acts take it one step further, and come across as a bit more creepy rather than the childish violence and power given to players for amusement.
Somehow killing and stealing are seen as things we want a game world to let us do, why not other repulsive actions? We are happy to let teenagers play games where they absent-mindedly kill thousands of characters, as death is pretty much meaningless in a game where extra lives/continues have always been a common occurence, but a game where you, for example, murder children or drag people off the streets and rape them would be breaking a huge cultural taboo.
Generally murder and theft are seen as OK because assassins and criminals are seen as 'cool', their victims just people in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just random game bots there for your amusement. Killing kids and other taboo acts take it one step further, and come across as a bit more creepy rather than the childish violence and power given to players for amusement.
I think next to nothing, with proper justification, should not be allowed.
I think that if given a strong enough narrative incentive, I would kill a child in a game to see the progression of where that leads to. I'm not saying I'll be perfectly comfortable with it, or that I would necessarily enjoy it from anything other than a narrative standpoint, but I think it could be done correctly.
If there were a game say called "Kid Killer 2k14" and you just gratuitiously murdered children in the game, I would respect it's right to exist, but I would prefer that it didn't and I would certainly not support it.
I think that if given a strong enough narrative incentive, I would kill a child in a game to see the progression of where that leads to. I'm not saying I'll be perfectly comfortable with it, or that I would necessarily enjoy it from anything other than a narrative standpoint, but I think it could be done correctly.
If there were a game say called "Kid Killer 2k14" and you just gratuitiously murdered children in the game, I would respect it's right to exist, but I would prefer that it didn't and I would certainly not support it.
The Penguin Fairy
Member
Yup. I don't see why children can't die, especially since it happens in books and movies. They're not even real. M rated video games shouldn't be censored.
Don't want children to be killed? Don't put them in a game as NPCs when adult NPCs can be killed. Why should it be okay to kill virtual innocent adults but not virtual children?
Don't want children to be killed? Don't put them in a game as NPCs when adult NPCs can be killed. Why should it be okay to kill virtual innocent adults but not virtual children?
ArchangelWest
Member
This is the deal...
ArchangelWest
Member
Speaking directly on the thread title, it's a diversion when a dragon attacks a town in skyrim, and the guards and citizens are mowed down by flames, but the children stand there like Superman. Let them exist according to the violence rules of the game in general, or don't include them. Yet realize that not including them in games that have people living their every day lives in towns would be silly.
How many games get away with this? Sooooo many. We've been fucking conditioned to simply accept childless worlds haha.
None at all, yes.
We can't have palayable/killable female characters in FPS games because the western developer/publisher fear of negative PR and pressure from female groups is too high.
We should have more diversity in our killings sprees. Taboos are stupid.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
Those Fallout 3 kids...
Shin Kojima
Banned
I've been wanting this forever.
Uh, because of realism.
Uh, because of realism.
I personally think they should but under the right circumstances. IMO it can add a form of impact that an adult dying cannot. The Walking Dead
And that is something when done right can really pull a few strings and make you think, and I love that. However I don't think we should be able to gun them down unnessasarily in GTA.
when is it duck? Dies, and I was the one to pull the trigger had a certain feel to it. It was wrong but given the choice, and the outcome if I didn't, it made me look at my boys and what would I do in this situation. It really hit home, and I know of that had been an adult I would not have been moved.
And that is something when done right can really pull a few strings and make you think, and I love that. However I don't think we should be able to gun them down unnessasarily in GTA.
CambriaRising
Member
Bethesda kids deserve what's comin' to em.
I understand the argument for making characters obey the rules of the game world, but we are talking about game worlds where people can strip corpses and arrange them in the town square like the human centipede before sitting down to admire their handiwork and posting it on YouTube.
Sure, we can look at it as 'it's a roleplaying game, I'm having a laugh!', but real-world people might not find it so funny. I can see the newspaper headlines now, and the developers might not be so blasé about it if they have children of their own. But then maybe they just don't understand just how annoying the Jarl's daughter was.
As for the 'other media has plenty of abhorrent acts' argument, every bookshop and video store has a huge 'crime' section as we are fascinated with petty crime, murder and general criminal activity- that's why GTA and Thief exist, and why the struggle between adults occupies much of our media- conflict=drama. What there isn't is a specialist 'child killing' market, nor does it make up a huge percentage of literary/film murders, as it's seen as something different and especially abhorrent.
Sure, we can look at it as 'it's a roleplaying game, I'm having a laugh!', but real-world people might not find it so funny. I can see the newspaper headlines now, and the developers might not be so blasé about it if they have children of their own. But then maybe they just don't understand just how annoying the Jarl's daughter was.
As for the 'other media has plenty of abhorrent acts' argument, every bookshop and video store has a huge 'crime' section as we are fascinated with petty crime, murder and general criminal activity- that's why GTA and Thief exist, and why the struggle between adults occupies much of our media- conflict=drama. What there isn't is a specialist 'child killing' market, nor does it make up a huge percentage of literary/film murders, as it's seen as something different and especially abhorrent.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
The majority of Japanese protagonists are children, they die all the God damned time.
Sure would make getting the master sword in OoT that much more of a cake walk.
Sure would make getting the master sword in OoT that much more of a cake walk.
If you mean violence to children should be shown on screen then no..Its too cruel.We see enough shit in the media.There is really no reason to portray violence against or murder of children.It is also inappropriate to portray them in sexual situations, even if the intention is to bring the issue into light and campaign against it.
It depends on the context and stuff. I definitely couldn't play a game that made me walk into an elementary school and start shooting the place up (->this came to mind after reading OP<-). That might make my stomach turn. =/
Yeah but you have to look at it in context IMO. I have seen people say in JRPGs they die all the time, but how and it what way?
I don't think you should be able to say carjack a car in GTA V run over some people and than just beat a child senseless or pop them in the head and steal their money. There is a fine line. Yes we play video games, and yes movies and books do it, but the difference is we play these characters and to me there has to be a line. maybe I'm getting soft in my old age but there has to be somewhere where devs draw the line.
Like I said above I'm all for it if its within the story of the game but there has to be a line.
Real life situation- someone tells you to watch where you are walking.
Real life response- you ignore them, apologise, or tell them to sod off, and keep walking.
Video game response- you hunt them down across the city, stealing three cars and re-enacting the film 'duel' before finally executing them in front of 40 witnesses.
Real life situation- you walk into your workplace, someone's kid tells you they don't like you.
Real life response- you ignore them, look for where their parents are or say 'hey, that's not very nice'.
Video game response- you experiment with putting varying grenades and poisons in their pockets. They shout and attack you, before you retreat, laying a landmine to cover your retreat.
Yeah, you should totally be able to decapitate them then and there, it's all about realism
Real life response- you ignore them, apologise, or tell them to sod off, and keep walking.
Video game response- you hunt them down across the city, stealing three cars and re-enacting the film 'duel' before finally executing them in front of 40 witnesses.
Real life situation- you walk into your workplace, someone's kid tells you they don't like you.
Real life response- you ignore them, look for where their parents are or say 'hey, that's not very nice'.
Video game response- you experiment with putting varying grenades and poisons in their pockets. They shout and attack you, before you retreat, laying a landmine to cover your retreat.
Yeah, you should totally be able to decapitate them then and there, it's all about realism
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I dunno, children being sacred is a relatively recent development that i'm pretty sure was (and in many cases is still) NOT shared by every culture on Earth.
I was able to kill kids in Star Wars Episode 1 for the PS1, so why the hell not? lol I enjoyed killing those little brats, they kept coming up to me saying I stunk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8Z896Fj6oeM#t=31s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8Z896Fj6oeM#t=31s
fart town usa
Gold Member
yes.
it happens in books, movies, songs, etc.
it happens in books, movies, songs, etc.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Good god I hope so. If the 12-year-olds shouting racial epithets over xbox live could also run around the Halo map without ever dying, no matter how many times they get hit with rockets or energy swords the game would be completely unplayable.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Yeah. Sorry but I don't prioritize children over adults.
See, I'm all for creative freedom as well, but I'm still not sure if we can handle brutal deaths of children in games properly. Needless to say, the jump from here to torture and rape is small, much smaller than people think.
That said, in JRPGs children die all time, the death are mostly implicit or without visible gore though. Therefore, it's a matter of how to implement it.
doublenagger
Banned
Sure.
Depends... Can you imagine playing a game where the bad guy grabs a child as a human shield, or there are young suicide bombers etc. Could you fathom shooting them, even though it's all just fake pixels?
I think video games are getting a bad rap with the current violence already, the last thing we need is games where kids can die etc.
I think video games are getting a bad rap with the current violence already, the last thing we need is games where kids can die etc.
That's the opposite of what NieR did,
No matter what you do nor how hard you try, the child still dies.
But yeah you're right OP, I think video games will never treat a child death as cheap as they'd treat an adult's, since that's the same way it is treated in real life society. Also, childs (or even better: female childs) are the one of the easiest way to add emotion to your game equation, they will never waste such an opportunity... unless they're real and they're not afraid to defy such concepts, which will probably not happen anytime soon.
That would be awesome.
Getting 5* on GTA, waiting for the swat to arrive and using a child as a human shield.
Surely yes. But only if it's not mindless. It's like porn in a sense that you don't want children under say 10 years old to watch it.
Yes I believe seeing children mindlessly killing people in GTA isn't the best nor healthy way to represent gaming to the general public. However, it kinda comes down to proper parental guidance if you ask me.
Yes I believe seeing children mindlessly killing people in GTA isn't the best nor healthy way to represent gaming to the general public. However, it kinda comes down to proper parental guidance if you ask me.
Lots of people in this thread saying "sure, why not," but I can think of lots of reasons why not.
Games are just not the same as movies or books, because the player has control. Murder of innocent people or kids and rape in games are things which are rightfully banned in many countries.
Now, that doesn't mean that kids should never die, or that the actions of a player in game can't indirectly cause their death, it just means that games shouldn't allow the player to do such things directly.
Games are just not the same as movies or books, because the player has control. Murder of innocent people or kids and rape in games are things which are rightfully banned in many countries.
Now, that doesn't mean that kids should never die, or that the actions of a player in game can't indirectly cause their death, it just means that games shouldn't allow the player to do such things directly.
Broder Salsa
Banned
I want to kill everyone.
I'm really surprised that GTA hasn't done this yet, make children NPCs that you can drive over and kill like any other person I mean.
They love controversy since it's by far the best advertisement for its core audience but have refused to add this which is guaranteed to make Fox news and that.
Ah well, you never know. Maybe in next gen Elder Scrolls/Fallout/GTA you'll be able to do that. Who knows?
edit: Forgot to say what I think about this, personally I don't see an issue with it myself but I can see why others would have an issue with something like this.
They love controversy since it's by far the best advertisement for its core audience but have refused to add this which is guaranteed to make Fox news and that.
Ah well, you never know. Maybe in next gen Elder Scrolls/Fallout/GTA you'll be able to do that. Who knows?
though I doubt any game would do it before GTA does it tbh
edit: Forgot to say what I think about this, personally I don't see an issue with it myself but I can see why others would have an issue with something like this.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Why not? I'm sticking to my MGS5 example. Would it be bad for MGS5 to have a segment in the child soldier camps where the children can be lethally put down, but the narrative is obviously making it clear it would be best that they aren't harmed? Would it be bad if MGS5 made it necessary to kill a child soldier?
There's a difference between children dying as part of the narrative of a game, film or book, and the game allowing people to hunt them down in whatever creative manner they see fit with no consequences.
The OP question is 'should children be allowed to die in games?'
I say yes- if caught in dragonfire, or attacked by NPCs etc- it allows heroic players to try to protect them, and fail. Also there should be a game world reaction to all npc death, rather than people just stepping over the corpses as if they aren't there. The only dead things the population of Skyrim discuss is dragons, not bob the baker, local well-liked everyman, when he is left naked in the fountain. The thing is players are inherently brilliantly creative and would end up luring monsters in to kill children in that situation anyway- it would be cool if, in that case, you were blamed for bringing death upon the town.
If the question is 'should players be allowed to murder children just because they find them annoying?' Then I say only if the game world has a penalty other than 'pay a thousand gold to get away with it', and even then I wouldn't want to be on the dev team, having it brought up in every interview I went for, being asked 'why did you let players do that?'.
I wonder if the problem is that the in-game penalties for all capital crimes are practically worthless, they just cost you money or two minutes of time with no long term social penalties, as its far more important that they don't want to slow down players too much who make a mistake or are just experimenting. Would players still want to kill kids (or anyone for that matter) in Skyrim if, the first time you were caught, a message was sent to all holds saying you were a child-killer and a deviant? No shop keeper would serve you, no inn would let you stay, your old companions would treat you with revulsion and disgust, and the Jarls immediately seized your property and threw you out. Your defence of 'the Jarl's daughter didn't trust me so I killed her' mysteriously carries little weight, and both he and his men attack you on sight for the rest of the campaign. You'd be a hated outcast, living in the wild, with contacts and 50% of the quests lost forever, as no one trusts you. How about that? Same goes for murder- if you had a long-term reputation that had negative effects rather than positive ones of owning the loot of the dead, maybe it wouldn't be as appealing if the social consequences were more realistic, and maybe not as much fun.
People want to be able to do what they like with few consequences, thats cool, its a game, but if we argue for realism, I'm also ok with game worlds having realistic approaches to crossing moral boundaries, even if it costs the player access to content. I have no problem with NPCs not trusting a serial killer with their holy magic sword to save the world, and that's something I hope next gen systems get even better at in terms of role-playing games- I'll take a game world like that where the player isn't an all-powerful creature that can treat everyone as their plaything over even-better graphics any day.
However, I take people's point that some of the kids are very annoying and repetitive in thier dialogue. If anything that's the most realistic thing about them. Maybe big bad dragon hunters can shrug it off.
The OP question is 'should children be allowed to die in games?'
I say yes- if caught in dragonfire, or attacked by NPCs etc- it allows heroic players to try to protect them, and fail. Also there should be a game world reaction to all npc death, rather than people just stepping over the corpses as if they aren't there. The only dead things the population of Skyrim discuss is dragons, not bob the baker, local well-liked everyman, when he is left naked in the fountain. The thing is players are inherently brilliantly creative and would end up luring monsters in to kill children in that situation anyway- it would be cool if, in that case, you were blamed for bringing death upon the town.
If the question is 'should players be allowed to murder children just because they find them annoying?' Then I say only if the game world has a penalty other than 'pay a thousand gold to get away with it', and even then I wouldn't want to be on the dev team, having it brought up in every interview I went for, being asked 'why did you let players do that?'.
I wonder if the problem is that the in-game penalties for all capital crimes are practically worthless, they just cost you money or two minutes of time with no long term social penalties, as its far more important that they don't want to slow down players too much who make a mistake or are just experimenting. Would players still want to kill kids (or anyone for that matter) in Skyrim if, the first time you were caught, a message was sent to all holds saying you were a child-killer and a deviant? No shop keeper would serve you, no inn would let you stay, your old companions would treat you with revulsion and disgust, and the Jarls immediately seized your property and threw you out. Your defence of 'the Jarl's daughter didn't trust me so I killed her' mysteriously carries little weight, and both he and his men attack you on sight for the rest of the campaign. You'd be a hated outcast, living in the wild, with contacts and 50% of the quests lost forever, as no one trusts you. How about that? Same goes for murder- if you had a long-term reputation that had negative effects rather than positive ones of owning the loot of the dead, maybe it wouldn't be as appealing if the social consequences were more realistic, and maybe not as much fun.
People want to be able to do what they like with few consequences, thats cool, its a game, but if we argue for realism, I'm also ok with game worlds having realistic approaches to crossing moral boundaries, even if it costs the player access to content. I have no problem with NPCs not trusting a serial killer with their holy magic sword to save the world, and that's something I hope next gen systems get even better at in terms of role-playing games- I'll take a game world like that where the player isn't an all-powerful creature that can treat everyone as their plaything over even-better graphics any day.
However, I take people's point that some of the kids are very annoying and repetitive in thier dialogue. If anything that's the most realistic thing about them. Maybe big bad dragon hunters can shrug it off.