I wish toryiama and co'd get away from ff. they are ruining the brand. Let's hope on team 4 remains
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Final Fantasy XIII-2 Spoiler Thread: Putting on our Makeup
- Thread starter kayos90
- Start date
I wish toryiama and co'd get away from ff. they are ruining the brand. Let's hope on team 4 remains
jimmypython
Member
Rahxephon91
Banned
Well if anyone should ruin the brand(which I guess only takes one game) it should be those that got it this far.
But if this is them ruining it. Well this is the best attempt at ruining anything.
Meccanical
Member
Certainly wastn't me.
Haven't bought an FF since X.
I didn't care for X, but in retrospect it was pretty good considering the stuff we get now.
Haven't bought an FF since X.
I didn't care for X, but in retrospect it was pretty good considering the stuff we get now.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
I don't think he should be let go. He does good work when someone's around to filter all of his stupid decisions. I understand he did the whole Wall Market section in FFVII and that was a really cool part. He worked on FFX too and that was also a fine game.
jimmypython
Member
Meccanical
Member
He should be a producer.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
This, I can't argue against.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Y.Matsuno as you know is not in Square enix anymore, and Itou is busy with something else. Who you suggest as the next director for FFXV?
Rahxephon91
Banned
Maybe don't make a 15 for a while.
Meccanical
Member
How about some new IPs?
Yeah?
Yeah?
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
Do we know which project Itou is busy working on? Or else, it could be FF15...
EDIT: There's also Minagawa and FFXIV's Yoshida, and although they might be busy now with that game, who knows for a FF16. And Tabata (still too early for him, but maybe in a few years). And I'm sure they can find anyone within Kitase's team.
Anyways, more important than direction, is storytelling. They need to get some good, professional writers.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Rumored western collaboration, nothing more. Maybe new IP.
Like Last Remnant and Infinite Undiscovery?
Also, why? Final Fantasy is a series that while not changing title keeps offering new experiences with every new entry. I don't see a "need" of a new IP considering how different the last four Final Fantasy (X, XI, XII, XIII) have been from each other.
That's probably what's going to happen. They'll wait for the next gen while being busy with Versus, XIII-3 and a few couple surprises by the end of the gen.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
This would be my guess. On a somewhat random note, didn't they casually say in an interview that FFXV might be a Zelda/Okami like action-RPG? I enjoy action RPGs, but this seems like an attempt to me to avoid having to provide a ton of content for their next, big, HD FF release. Action RPGs don't necessarily need to have impressive stories or elaborate towns.
Shouldn't be a producer either, the producer handles the purse strings. As bad as he is at directing a team, you think Toriyama's responsible enough to stick to the schedule and budget? Hell no.
I like how you pretend XIV doesn't exist.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
I didn't name it because it's too similar to XI in its presentation and style of gameplay
I could name Type-0 and Versus though. Actually almost every Final Fantasy is a new IP in its own way considering how many things change.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
Perfo, I like you, and I really wish you didn't have that tag, btw... but you kinda dug yourself in deeper here. I never had to read the codices or supplementary materials to get what was going on in DA or ME because they were supplementary tools which described parts of the world that the player is in if they were interested in it, and the narrative in those games--although not very great--were told in a straightforward manner; not convey much of the narrative for the player to fully comprehend what was going on. Compare with Final Fantasy XIII where you do have to read the Datalog and Fragments in order to 'get' everything. That is a poor method of conveying a narrative, imo.
Try to dig up. D:
Oh yeah, definitely this too. The way the 'datalog' in FFVIII was implemented so well and beautifully that it didn't seem like you were reading a datalog at all (unless you were studying up for the SeeD exams).Dunan said:
Even as you were completing the Bestiary in Final Fantasy XII, the stuff in there was interesting, but again, supplementary material not needed for full comprehension of the game's narrative. It felt that you, as a hunter/bounty hunter/adventurer, were looking up stats for the monsters or whatnot.
We ended up with this.
...and almost ended up with this.
I play Lord of Arcana just because Swery's involved (and I love me some Swery), but it sadly pales in comparison to God Eater Burst and Monster Hunter. Even Frontier Gate's demo was more fun.
Meanwhile, Army Corps of Hell looks interesting (and those ARPGs that SE released artwork for seem interesting), so who knows?
Now I feel like I have weird taste since I love Matsuno a lot. :/Esura said:
If I can't get Sakiyama, Kaga, or Murayama to write my wartime RPG narratives, Matsuno is an extremely excellent alternative; couple the guy with Alexander O. Smith and we get something special.
...oh God, a Smith-localized Suikoden game. *salivates*
Meccanical
Member
Isn't Suikoden dead Schala?
Never played Tactics Ogre but I consider Vagrant Story such a mediocre game with a mediocre plot personally. Only game I like from Matsuno is Final Fantasy Tactics.
No, you actually aren't the only one who likes Matsuno. I'm actually in the minority.
While I liked Tactic's story, I did not care for Vagrant Story and FFXII's stories, especially the latter. It just felt like background noise and I had no incentive to care about any of the characters.
Even if the things from the datalogs/fragments in FFXIII/XIII-2 were explained actually in-game, it's so much and a lot of it so senseless that they'd get criticized for zany, bad and stupid writing even more than they do already.
EDIT:
I loved what I played of Frontier Gate in the demo! I never understood why everyone called it tri-Ace's take on PS/MH... since it doesn't really play anything like them except for the quests.
Tactics Ogre is like Final Fantasy Tactics but better.
EDIT:
I loved what I played of Frontier Gate in the demo! I never understood why everyone called it tri-Ace's take on PS/MH... since it doesn't really play anything like them except for the quests.
Tactics Ogre is like Final Fantasy Tactics but better.
Rahxephon91
Banned
They really would'nt. People were able to buy into FFX. If 13 had a Tidus like character, they could have easily explained things. And they almost had it with Vannile.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
You can't blame Matsuno for XII. Too many other prying hands were busy mutilating that game's story and features much to Matsuno's dismay. Remember how he stepped down from actually working on the game due to "health problems"? No doubt it was caused by internal conflicts and issues regarding his vision for that game clashing with what SE wanted. (Like shoehorning Vaan in as the most pointless protagonist ever to appeal to tweens while shoving Basch to the backburner.)
I wish we got Matsuno's FFXII. What we ended up with sounds like some frankenstine creation when pitted against what could have been.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
When I get the new game in the mail in a few weeks or see some mk2 scores, I'll let you know. :lol
And that's fine. I know a few people who couldn't really get into VS or FFXII because the narrative wasn't appealing to them at all. Really, I don't think Matsuno's narratives are for everyone because not everyone is into that sort of storytelling/subject matter.Esura said:
Tactics Ogre PSP introduces a few systems that make the game more fun that its older incarnations. I find it more fun than Tactics, personally.
I was pretty close to buying the game andGoli said:
I really hope that isn't what happened. If I were in that position, that would've been enough to turn me off of making games for the company if it were going to be like this every time I made a game.ZombiePlatypus said:
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
There are several hints that imply that, like Matsuno stating that he wasn't able to "adapt" to the more democratic development of a main FF game, where the games concepts are supposed to be a mish-mash of different ideas from different staff members; or like when Sakaguchi refused to play FFXII because it wasn't a Matsuno's game, or even the entire Vaan thing.
For example, the Star Wars airships were not his idea. A artist designed them, and then they were put into the game.
EDIT: And yes, Matsuno's writing style is not the most acessible style out there. Not only for the themes he deals with, but because the events themselves are more reflective and less action-y, where the conflict is on the ideals and points-of-view that clash with each other and generate a complex chain of events, focusing less on urgent let's-do-this-fast-or-the-entire-garden-will-blow-up! moments that usually hook more the casual player. That, and he doesn't makes a big deal of the drama of his characters. It is there, and it is strong, it's just not overblown in cutscenes. In fact, some of the "silent" suffering of his characters only made me feel more for them in Vagrant Story. But anyways, that's closer to "adult" literature than teen "oh my good, look at me, I feel so terrible now" drivel.
There's really nothing to indicate he's working on a western collaboration. We know he's working on a "large project" (taken from Dissidia 012's Ultimania), but that's really all we know.
Most of Tactics Ogre PSP's and Last Remnant's staff haven't been heard from lately too, so they're most likely working with Ito on what is probably FFXV (or the Unity Engine game S-E is making)
I have to wonder why they're not making any new Final Fantasy Tactics though. They were all well-received and sold decently. =/
Meccanical
Member
I personally enjoyed Vagrant Story's immensely.
As a matter of fact it's the only thing I enjoyed, I couldn't stand the gameplay.
Dark Schala
Eloquent Princess
The bolded is something I didn't know about. Whoa. The Star Wars airships did not seem like something Matsuno would add to his games at all. When you take all of that into account, what happened with Final Fantasy XII's development is quite unfortunate. Outside of Basch's preliminary character design, I would've liked to see where Matsuno was going to take it. :/
Absolutely. That's what I like about Matsuno's writing, though; less focus on character drama, and more focus on the bigger picture and events, and the chains which cause these events to occur (and possibly how they affect other people and other events' outcomes).
Perhaps it's because I'm growing older, but I don't really care for the overwrought dramatic 'feels bad, you guys' cutscenes anymore. The way Matsuno takes care of character drama is rather pleasant and leaves a stronger impression on me.
Of course, as stated, this sort of storytelling and character drama isn't for everyone.
I don't know how little you liked them, but you have to admit they're better than 3rd Birthday's story. I mean, at least you know what is going on in 12. I just hit chapter 4 in Third Birthday and I swear it's a whole different story now. The protagonist magically has a new personality, there's a change of venue, suddenly a character nobody knew about is being hunted by the govt and a bunch of people just up and died and Toriyama offers you literally no explanation.
People say XIII's story is bad. They clearly haven't played Third Birthday. Chapter 3's ending and Chapter 4's beginning are so inexplicable that it's not even funny. I'd call the plot surrealist or dadaist or non sequitur but I feel that's an insult to those concepts. This is just plain incoherent.
Do you know what FFXIII-2 and T3B have in common besides time travel and sisters? They expect you to read all extra documents and data in the game. Although even after reading all documents, news reports, timelines, and everything in the part with all characters in T3B I could never really understand it.
That was kind of a problem of mine with XIII. The whole game they yak about Maker and how big a deal He is. They yammer on about Fal'Cie Smoke and Mirrors and center Barthandelus' entire character in that.
Then they expect me to believe that the resolution isn't Maker stepping in on your behalf, nor Fal'Cie Smoke and Mirrors, but a barely mentioned Goddess that I had to beat the hardest boss in the game to even know the name of.
If the 3rd Birthday's files offer some explanation, I'm beyond caring. The game's story has at least the obligation to explain something as basic as "Why is Aya working in a garage instead of for the government now?" and "Wait what the hell is Cray doing here, anyway?"
While I'm not opposed to political-based storytelling, I did like FFT primarily for its story after all, but I really like the more colorful shonen inspired storylines in my JRPGs.
My issue with Vagrant Story's story was that, I didn't understand anything. My issue with FFXII's story was that it was boring and never picked up. FFT had me on my seat from beginning to that final Gafgarrion fight. Couldn't get through him so I read the story off somewhere else, lmao.
I find myself as of late liking darker stories in JRPGs like Nier though.
I never finished 3rd Birthday yet so no comment on that. My primary experience with Toriyama is FFX, FFX-2, FFXIII, and FFXIII-2...which aside from VII are my most favorite mainline FF games in the series and I enjoyed the stories a lot.
I may have to replay it to see how bad it is.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I know what you mean and I appreciate Matsuno's more "stoic" heroism too... but on the other hand, I think those kinds of emotional lamentations have the potential to be some of the most mature storytelling in gaming, and I am glad that something as "sensitive" like that is allowed to exist in videogames.. I just wish they were for plot elements far more deserving... actual tragedy. As it is, the most "so so very sad" melodramatic cutscenes are usually married to the most inane "omg the gods have given us crystals" plotlines.
Something like... I dunno, the content in the Lost Odyssey dreams? That would deserve some heavy FF-style tears, if played right.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Nojima wrote X. Toriyama was the Event Director, which I assume means he decided how cutscenes played out but I cant really say for sure.Esura said:
Also X-2 is probably his most consistent story.
Sakaguchi only played a portion of FFXII saying:
Sakaguchi said:
Somehow it sounds even more "oh snap" when he says he played a portion that matters in his opinion.
It's quite a stark contrast on the tone of stories between teams at times. FFXII's team had set its goal around making the "world" the main character versus the main party focus and making the world bow to their whims that most of the other mainline FFs had. It's likely an age thing but I much more appreciate now characterizations that has a subtle approach than having everything stated outright in a bombastic manner, no matter the quality of the plot.
And I don't think the acting/animation choices really help with stories like XIII. Makes the terrible even worse. It was the same problem in X. So irksome to watch and a lot of it has to do with the cultural acting differences, I think. And overacting in general.
The Xtortionist
Member
Are the character expressions (dropping to knees, female lead clutching at chest, close-up on female lead's face as she nods intensely with a "let's do it"-type phrase) native to Japanese entertainment as a whole, or just anime?
The thread title made me wonder what I was in for, and hoo-boy, did this game disappoint.
It's a shame, because I think the gameplay is pretty tight and fun, but just about everything else is awful.
The whole thing is just so... budget. There are fewer than 10 new enemies in the game, you're raising monsters instead of getting a real party member, and most of the zones are complete filler.
And I'm frankly amazed anyone is trying to make any sense of the story at all. It's all complete nonsense. I'm sure Toriyama meticulously graphed something out to try and prove it makes sense, but... no. If you have to do that for anyone to understand what is happening in your story, then you've failed, and your little graphing exercise is just a complex attempt at rationalization.
Complete nonsense aside, my biggest problem is how tonally off this is from XIII. It feels like they took another game's story and shoe-horned it into XIII's world. Moogle, Chocolina, Serendipity, giant metal time tunnels, flan and warpmouth dragon, etc. - none of that would fly in XIII, so why did they think it would fly in this?
Timey-wimey-ness not making sense is more or less a given, but not this completely tone-deaf extension of the series.
It's a shame, because I think the gameplay is pretty tight and fun, but just about everything else is awful.
The whole thing is just so... budget. There are fewer than 10 new enemies in the game, you're raising monsters instead of getting a real party member, and most of the zones are complete filler.
And I'm frankly amazed anyone is trying to make any sense of the story at all. It's all complete nonsense. I'm sure Toriyama meticulously graphed something out to try and prove it makes sense, but... no. If you have to do that for anyone to understand what is happening in your story, then you've failed, and your little graphing exercise is just a complex attempt at rationalization.
Complete nonsense aside, my biggest problem is how tonally off this is from XIII. It feels like they took another game's story and shoe-horned it into XIII's world. Moogle, Chocolina, Serendipity, giant metal time tunnels, flan and warpmouth dragon, etc. - none of that would fly in XIII, so why did they think it would fly in this?
Timey-wimey-ness not making sense is more or less a given, but not this completely tone-deaf extension of the series.
Rahxephon91
Banned
Exactly. Everything just feels shoehorned into a world that maybe was not perfectly presented, but still had some sort of of it's own logic and rules.
And I was just really annoyed at Hope and his yeah "I've just been chilling through time with my gravity machine and people still listen to me even though I disappear from Coccon politics for like decades, oh and Szah is here because something... probably a paradox
This time travel shit just feels so dumb. I really hate the story for this game.
I never finished 3rd Birthday yet so no comment on that. My primary experience with Toriyama is FFX, FFX-2, FFXIII, and FFXIII-2...which aside from VII are my most favorite mainline FF games in the series and I enjoyed the stories a lot.
I may have to replay it to see how bad it is.
I just bought the game, and the guys on GameFAQs are like, on the edge of their chairs for me to finish it. I can't blame them, it's THAT BAD. There is literally no coherence in the plot, and by chapter 4, no attempts are made at it. The voice acting is awkward as heck, to boot, what with everyone pausing mid-sentence for no reason. And the lines are so awkwardly phrased: "Why did you choose betrayal!?" Who says that? I've never met any American who says that. Why doesn't she just say "Why did you betray me?!" or "You traitor!"?
Let me put it like this: Before buying the game (which I did solely to pick up the DLC and because it was like, 10 bucks), I watched some segments of cutscenes on youtube. The scenes I saw were between Aya and Maeda, who is like Otacon if Otacon had been more overtly infatuated with Snake. I thought they were some of the worst scenes I'd seen in games (barring like, Chaos Wars).
They are now the most endearing sections of the game, with the interaction between the two characters infinitely more interesting than anything else so far.
Before, I'd have said "Nah, Toriyama's not THAT bad, right?" Now I say it out loud: Toriyama is the worst writer the Final Fantasy series has ever known. I could ask a class of 7th graders to write a more consistent and compelling story than this drivel. If 3rd Birthday wasn't fun, I would consider it a very pretty waste of money.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
You'll see this in Japanese dramas and movies too.
I just started the English version like yesterday and some of the usage of words is weird...
Why change Ooparts to artifacts? Since the word 'artifact' is so general, it sounds weird for whatever characters to say lines like "Huh, what are artifacts?". The term Ooparts (Out of place artifacts) is much more appropriate and self explanatory.
Also the over use of the word 'exist'. Why say "in a world I no longer exist" when "in a world where I no longer am alive" is more more specific. Or saying "a future where Cocoon doesn't exist" rather than "a future where Cocoon has fallen onto the ground". The term can potentially confuse people when it comes to time travel/multidimension plots since saying that something doesn't exist could mean that the thing was wiped and never existed. Lightning saying that she no longer exist made it seem like she never existed in the first place.
The choice of words in FFXII:RW also affected the plot somewhat when they decided to call everything you can summon Espers when in the original only those specific entities were espers. I believe that the Japanese version of RW also used two different terms for the monsters that you could summon.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I fully expected this game to be fluffy cotton candy nonsense, and that's what I got. I actually do not mind any of the characters or the main themes of the plot... Mog, Serah's character and time travel included. I can get into that. I have no problem with a time travelling romp that takes a silly right turn from the events of the first game
But yes, it is haphazardly pieced together. I'm sure that most of it doesn't make sense.. it lacks coherance. But then... that's how I felt about the first XIII. Both have lots of wonderful posturing (IMO... I eat that stuff up, at least ideally)... but no true narrative logic at its core. Ultimately unsatisfying...
Electivirus
Member
Same here. That format is probably what helped me enjoy XIII-2's story overall.
Incidentally, I'm not too big of a fan of Matsuno's plots. Political intrigue + shitloads of backstabbing doesn't really do it for me. Combine that with the sometimes-hard-to-parse faux-Shakesperean dialogue that pervades a lot of his stuff (I still love you, O. Smith!), and... yeah. I rarely know what's going on at any given time. >_>
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
We need a third option for FF scenarios!
Well, rather, a second one, since Matsuno is gone from the Square Enix picture
And still it had such class that next ffs can forget to even attempt to come near it
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Eh, that's really neither here nor there. They all have their respective fans I guess? I love Final Fantasy but I'm not really keen on any FF that has come out after FFX. I feel that they've all been equally severely-disappointing for their own, very different reasons. That's just my take though. Others seem to somehow enjoy or even love some of the double-digit entries, so really, who knows anymore.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Matsuno scrapped 50% of the story due to development issues and time constraints, which led to the ending credits artwork depicting scenes that aren't even in the game. Major gameplay features were also scrapped (like the two-player mode, despite the cover art clearly hinting at it, what with Callo being right there with Ashley) and the textures were degraded because they couldn't fit on the disc. Vagrant Story basically almost suffered the same fate as FFXII.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
Vagrant Story =Dark Schala said:
Ashley inherits Sydney's power
Basch inherits his brother's Gabranth position
How, so the judge at the game's logo can represent both the villain and the main character?!
Of course, while VS ended that with style, FFXII left it mostly as a background stuff (like the entire Basch character). In fact, other than the completely random moment where
Ashe screams Balthieeeer
But then again, that's what we can expect from Watanabe's writing. He did that again with FFXIII's story at its later stages.
You should give the game a second try then. I didn't find it very hard to understand, honestly, but then again, I already knew what to expect, and that helped. It's easier than it might seem.Esura said:
The difference being, Matsuno stayed till the end with VS, and the story was consistently awesome (for those who enjoyed its style), even if compressed a lot. Meanwhile, for FFXII, he left mid-way, and that game's narrative abruptly changes sometime after your get your last party member, going from an ever-growing plot web into a simplistic "let's go to dungeon A get the magical artifact! now, repeat for dungeon B, C and D!".
Just compare Basch or Vaan for the first 1/3 of the game (actively involved characters that naturally become more and more important to the story) to Basch and Vaan for the rest of the game (passive characters that fade into the background, being "just there", contributing a piece of dialogue every once and then).
Reminds you of anything else? FFXIII's story starting from chapter 10 or from Pulse and on. Where the characters are simply passive dolls whose main objective is to go to the end of (insert dungeon's name here) expecting "something to happen". I'm making a comparison to FFXIII, because Watanabe was the main writer of Pulse's portion of the story, the same guy that substituted Matsuno to "complete" FFXII's story.
And if I'm not wrong, Matsuno actually scrapped 2/3s of the story for VS.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
I never understand the talk about XII's story going missing because of Matsuno's departure. I think I'm missing an element here: scripts in games are written through years instead of completing them as soon as possible? I always thought the script is one of the first thing completed when the development starts. People are implying that Matsuno wrote the story in 3 yrs only 'till a certain part and left white pages filled by Watanabe? How is that even possible that after so much time Matsuno wasn't able to write a complete script of the full events of XII?