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Dota 2 Beta Thread 2: Real Talk Discouraged [Magnus, Teams, 6.75b, 150+ Shop Items]
- Thread starter Artanisix
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cuevas. PhD.
Member
I want to learn the heroes by playing them but when I choose a carry it seems like noone else will pick a fucking support, fucking a people.
Eh despite still not being fond of the broodmother/ursa outfits, I wouldn't expect completely out of place things like baseball caps and lightsabers. At least the ursa suit is lederhosen which "kind of" goes with the theme of his area. I also find a lot of the changes negative too just because they're changes. The UI was a bit of a shocker when it was revealed but I understand the reasons for it now, and they are doing more work on it.
CLG vs mouz starting soon, they already did the draft so now they're waiting for a server rehost: http://www.twitch.tv/ggnetpurge
I H8 Memes
Member
Why are these games never available to watch through the dota client?
Doesn't the influx of live spectators cause major lag for the servers the teams are playing on? I remember seeing this happen on tobi's stream during a na'vi match and they had to remake several times since the password kept getting leaked.
Train of Midnight
Banned
Looks like today's update is delayed. I wonder what's coming
Also, don't know if this was posted yet; found on reddit
throwawayname
Member
Looks like today's update is delayed. I wonder what's coming
That was almost 1 day ago I think.
Bit late on reacting to the avalanche of cosmetics, but as with TF2, my interest in them will be limited to what fits the theme of a character as a complete costume. Mech Brood and Cowboy look dumb as hell in light of that, but thus far I'd say there's a lot less "ew" going on compared to TF2 (which has an unfortunate dearth of cosmetics that work as a full costume and that I like).
People were directly joining the match server by IP (to circumvent the game being disabled for spectate servers) and stressing it. With spectate servers scaling with increased viewers, a ton of people watching isn't a problem. Streamers understandably want their stream revenue, and I hope Valve is able to work something out for tournaments outside the International.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Looks like today's update is delayed. I wonder what's coming
That was from yesterday. "No test update today" meaning no Wednesday update for the test build as normal. There is still an actual update coming for the game today (unless it gets delayed).
There are definitely treasure chests with keys that I assume you'll purchase like the crates in TF2. I'm going to assume that individual costume parts will drop randomly as well like TF2, but it's not confirmed yet.
Valve hasn't really said anything official about cosmetic items, but the files have strings referring to certain items increasing item drop rate so it's a good guess that it'll be like TF2. Beyond that, like if there'll be a cap and such, we don't know much if any.
Oh, I see. Thanks!
Dreams-Visions
Member
I would expect the drops of cosmetics to be relatively rare in comparison to TF2. Since there are no "filler" drops like there are in TF2 (weapons), I'd imagine that at best we're talking about 1 drop every several matches. Maybe a 10% chance to get a drop. Maybe even less depending on how much value they want to add to these items and how many they will have at launch.
Drops could be time based, i.e. every X minutes of gameplay equals one cosmetic drop. Super Monday Night Combat uses that system and it works pretty nicely (I think it is every 90 minutes in that game). It would completely stop idling as people can't just AFK at base because they would get an abandon.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think a 5%-10% chance at the end of each completed match is better than a time system. That also kills off the AFKers. Not sure how this would work for custom, in-house matches. Maybe not at all? idk.
But that's just me.
Yep, make it matchmaking only, end of everygame, everyone gets a % chance to get an item.
Maybe create an incentive for winning(not score related) too by increasing item chance or something for those on the winning team.
If there was a percentage chance at the end of the game then some people would stomp matchmaking bot games all day for more hats.
They might just do a points system anyway. This item in the schema makes me think that there will be a currency and you could redeem your points for hats ala most other F2P games.
Edit: A hybrid system would be the most consumer friendly. A guaranteed item drop every once in awhile, earning battle points to buy cosmetics (albeit at a slower pace) or paying real money to get a cosmetic right now.
TF2 drop system is done by play time. There is a 6-12 item drop cap each week, and a time cap at 10-11 hours. Drops occur at random intervals during game play. It doesn't matter if you finish a game or not, drops typically happen when you die, there is a team switch, or the map is changed. I think Dota 2 will also use this method.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
There's not a chance in hell people will get a 5-12 costumes a week.
They'll be lucky to get a costume every over week in my opinion.
They'll be lucky to get a costume every over week in my opinion.
Dreams-Visions
Member
then just make it so that it only works in MM with real players. Seems like an easy solution to that, don't you think?
I don't. That model works because there are so many items in TF2, most of which is worthless junk. We've not seen anything in Dota2 that can be considered "throw away" stuff. Also, finished matches in TF2 don't matter because you can have a dozen matches in an hour and there's nothing to gain by finishing a match anyway. That's fundamentally different from Dota2. That difference can and should be leveraged.
If TF2 ONLY had hat and misc drops, it'd probably have something like only 1-2 drops a week, if any at all. I think rewarding finished MM matches is better for Dota because it creates a reward for NOT QUITTING (sorely needed). Making it a percentage of some kind rather than total minutes played is perfect for that.
Well just because there aren't filler items doesn't mean they have to drop less. There being 100+ heroes with different items will make it hard enough to find(or have dropped) the items you want for specific heroes. I think in the end it'll depend on how many items they actually plan on having when the store releases. If they plan on having 4+ sets along with several random items like some of the heroes have in the schema then it'll be crazy only getting 1 drop every 3-5 matches. It's a pretty hard system to think about when we don't have a lot of information on the variables.
I went through the schema and Sven has at least 24 items. For a game that will have 108+ heroes that's a lot of cosmetic items just for one hero. I'm not sure what they plan to do, if they want to make all cosmetics the same rarity or have different tiers of rarity or whatnot. I noticed Sven has a "Flameguard set" along with another similar(different color and different helm) "Commander's Flameguard set". Dunno if that's a WIP thing or they plan tiers or something.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Again, I disagree. There are 235 hats and 120 miscellaneous items in TF2, last I checked. No shortage of items there. Yet, do you know how often hats and misc items drop in TF2? About 1 per week if you're lucky (where a maximum "week" is roughly defined as 10-11 hours of play). 2 in an extremely rare week. The rest is filler stuff and crates that you have to pay to open. I'm pretty well versed on this one, as my TF2 backpack is worth a $1,500 if I wanted to cash it out.
Point is, extremely low drop rates for cosmetic items (despite the high volume of them in the game) is what allows them to charge $3-15 for these items in their store (trading notwithstanding). It's unlikely that you'll get a cosmetic item drop at all...and even less likely it's the one you want. This is how they keep the value of these items relatively high in TF2, and that same goal (keeping the value high) will most certainly be part of the money-making forumla in Dota2. You don't do that via abundant drops because with millions playing, you just ensure a market flooded and extremely cheap stuff if you do a lot of drops in that light. Bad business.
Also, we know treasure chests will be a thing. For all we know, all of these items will be confined to chests that you have to pay to open. Would suck, but would also increase the value of cosmetic items. We'll see...but money is their game, and destroying their potential market by giving shit away like candy at Willy Wonka's chocolate factory won't do it.
Meepo is still a work in progress but he's expected to be released sooner rather than later.
Valve can just think up some junk drops. Think of it as if scrap metal dropped. Most of your drops will be items you can craft together, and then eventually you can use it to get cosmetic items. Also, in the item schema there is an item that gives a random drop to a random person on the server, similar to Secret Saxtons in TF2. If all drops were cosmetic items, this would be extremely broken. There has to be some filler drops as well. Honestly, I think it will be remarkably similar to TF2's item drop system in many ways based on the item schema.
Never said anything about "giving items away like candy". I think you're going a little to far in detail for a system we know nothing about which was the point of my post.(Don't mean this offensively, it just feels like you're compared the item system too much to tf2) One of the problems I have is you don't seem to differentiate between cosmetics and seem to put every one(which can very well go into the 1000's) on the same tier. They can easily have a smaller starter tier that can drop more frequently and get players hooked and then have the higher tiers that are sold at the higher prices and are extremely rare to drop. As I posted previously, Sven has two sets that kind of mimic the idea which is where I got it from.Again, I disagree. There are 235 hats and 120 miscellaneous items in TF2, last I checked. No shortage of items there. Yet, do you know how often hats and misc items drop in TF2? About 1 per week if you're lucky (where a maximum "week" is roughly defined as 10-11 hours of play). 2 in an extremely rare week. The rest is filler stuff and crates that you have to pay to open. I'm pretty well versed on this one, as my TF2 backpack is worth a $1,500 if I wanted to cash it out.
Point is, extremely low drop rates for cosmetic items (despite the high volume of them in the game) is what allows them to charge $3-15 for these items in their store (trading notwithstanding). It's unlikely that you'll get a cosmetic item drop at all...and even less likely it's the one you want. This is how they keep the value of these items relatively high in TF2, and that same goal (keeping the value high) will most certainly be part of the money-making forumla in Dota2. You don't do that via abundant drops because with millions playing, you just ensure a market flooded and extremely cheap stuff if you do a lot of drops in that light. Bad business.
Also, we know treasure chests will be a thing. For all we know, all of these items will be confined to chests that you have to pay to open. Would suck, but would also increase the value of cosmetic items. We'll see...but money is their game, and destroying their potential market by giving shit away like candy at Willy Wonka's chocolate factory won't do it.
In other words, they need some sort of higher drop rate items. With hats taking so long to get it was nice getting the higher drop rate items like weapons that could be used to eventually craft hats.
EDIT: Can someone break this down for me? I'm looking as Sven stuff. In the generics it shows he has slots for mask, sword, belt, gauntlet, shoulder. 4 armor and 1 weapon. His Commander's Flameguard armor has 5 pieces not including the weapon. Unless they don't have all of the generic slots on the schema sven would have an armor set that you can't completely wear. That sounds really strange. Maybe they're figuring out which pieces to use or something.
Dreams-Visions
Member
There could be filler drops. Or, they could just reduce the number of drops entirely. I don't think it'll be a problem that way, as I'm not playing Dota for item drops. No matter how they do it, I'm sure it'll be fine.
Assume it will be similar to tf2.
Hat
Mask
Shoulders
Arms
Legs
+
Weapon skin
All to be found separately. Slots would be generic enough for any item classified as "shoulders" or "hats" to fit on. Full outfits will be available for purchase, or you'll be able to mix and match.
I know this, but the schema only shows 4 slots for sven's armor while this commander's flameguard set has 5 pieces. It's strange to have a set where you can't wear everything at once.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
Shadow Demon's Soul Catcher is ridiculously good. I was watching a game where he was laning with Leshrac, it did not end well for the Radiant guys on that lane.
Dreams-Visions
Member
ooooh. didn't realize. I've no clue then.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Also works well with Kunkka.
Lesh+SD is a great lane, unless your Lesh is Lirlond bad.
sssstententen
Member
Don't know why you guys are so confused about the drop system when it seems like it's going to be almost identical to the TF2 system.
I really like the idea of a percentage chance for drops, with the percentage changing with performance.
Like a base 5% chance for anything to drop. It never goes below 5%. More kills than deaths? +1-2%. Win the match? +2%. I could go on.
They could have double rate weekends, or bonus rates for playing underplayed characters, or lesser played matchmaking modes (SD gets you 7% base drop rate, obviously its tougher to get boosts since you don't get control over your hero).
As for item variety and drop rates, they will probably have unique super rare expensive items just like TF2, easier to just buy it then hope for it to drop (or have multiple items in the set, so even if you get 1 you'll want to buy the rest), basic items that drop much more often but much less interesting. Then they can have variants, like rares, unique, particle effects, whatever.
I would love it even more if they incorporated colored names to the item drops to scratch that Diablo/WoW/etc itch I always have. Greens, Blues, Purples, Oranges/Reds.
Everything is always cosmetic, I would probably play 3x more than I do now just because of my loot lust. Not only would this put it a notch above LoL and HoN (or any other ARTS game), it would support a thriving trade economy that really keeps a community going for ages.
I really like the idea of a percentage chance for drops, with the percentage changing with performance.
Like a base 5% chance for anything to drop. It never goes below 5%. More kills than deaths? +1-2%. Win the match? +2%. I could go on.
They could have double rate weekends, or bonus rates for playing underplayed characters, or lesser played matchmaking modes (SD gets you 7% base drop rate, obviously its tougher to get boosts since you don't get control over your hero).
As for item variety and drop rates, they will probably have unique super rare expensive items just like TF2, easier to just buy it then hope for it to drop (or have multiple items in the set, so even if you get 1 you'll want to buy the rest), basic items that drop much more often but much less interesting. Then they can have variants, like rares, unique, particle effects, whatever.
I would love it even more if they incorporated colored names to the item drops to scratch that Diablo/WoW/etc itch I always have. Greens, Blues, Purples, Oranges/Reds.
Everything is always cosmetic, I would probably play 3x more than I do now just because of my loot lust. Not only would this put it a notch above LoL and HoN (or any other ARTS game), it would support a thriving trade economy that really keeps a community going for ages.
Isn't Valve completely against ideas like this?
This would be kind of neat. Not sure how it would work if they plan on making community items, unusuals, stranges ect though.
sssstententen
Member
Don't know, I'm sure Valve likes it being random so people can't break the system. But I still think a base rate would be better for everyone. The only reason I mentioned increased rates for winning or improving is that it would push people to take MM more seriously, but not terribly, since you'll get a chance at something no matter what. This way, if a game is obviously lost, people will want to stay to see if they get loot, but also try and push to come back for a chance at a prize. Seems like a win-win to me.
My guess would be community items would be rated by Valve, or a neutral color that has no rarity effect. Unusual's and stranges could be relegated to the higher tier items.
wakajawaka
Member
What is an announcer?
Dude that says first blood, double kill, triple kill, etc.
wakajawaka
Member
oh and they are gonna sell different ones? like famous people or other heroes, or what?
Dreams-Visions
Member
i like this.
reward good play and not quitting with a slightly better chance at finding a cosmetic drop. big enough so that people will care, but not so big that they start raging if they're struggling. maybe an extra 1% for each to the base chance.
anything is better than the Unreal Tournament guy. He could have died in 1999.
Heroes and notable Valve characters (ie Dr. Kleiner) so far.
SuperAwesome
Member
no test build update - straight to the official client it seems.
steam workshop is enabled now, too.
steam workshop is enabled now, too.
Yep. Downloading now.
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