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Synth · Jan 27, 2016

Another48Hours said:
Your full of crap.

Tf was in the highest selling genre with as marketing and underperformed under most expectations. The last tf numbers we got where 3 million with 2million of that on Xbox one Months after launch. Cod, Halo, BF, etc do that near launch.

The more popular the genre, te higher the "low seller" number will be, Tf, didn't meet the sales lots were expecting and guess what two of the biggest complaints against TF were? LACK OF MP AND NO SP.

I know reality may make you sad, but the truth is combined with poor marketing and support, lots if Sega's games lack things that make it stand out and lack "content" as well. Your faulty comparisons and rewriting aren't going to help you.

You also clearly omit things each post, when did I say content Is the only reason? Heck I addressed you doing this same crap last post as well.

Your Sonic Transformed reply is a desperate attempt to dodge my earlier statement, Mario Kart 8 is a bad comparison, and Sonic Transformed sells more than most arcade racers, meaning it's not a poor seller and you bringing it up is nothing short of desperation.

Alsotou don't seem to know what an arcade racer is, Mario Kart and NFS are both arcade racers, karts are a subset, and Sonic Transformed outside MK sells more than both sides for most games. Again, meaning Sonic transformed is not a poor seller. Which again brings up the question of why your using it in the same argument as Binary Domain, which diesnt sell well and has outsold likely nothing.

You're (*) full of crap.

Halo struggled to amass significantly more than Titanfall over a year into the console's life on roughly double the user base, and TF's sales compared favourably with CoD:Ghosts and BF4 (which by your previous logic would have been benefitting from a reduced library selection at launch). If TF sold under expectations (which I'm assuming you're just making up, as EA, MS and Respawn have officially stated otherwise), then that would more likely be to do with the Xbox One's place in the market in comparison to the PS4. There were complaints about the content (same with SW Battlefront), yea... but it still sold fuckloads regardless. You're going to have to accept that

Sure, you can consider Kart Racers a subgenre of arcade racers... that still doesn't make a comparison to another Kart Racer less fitting than another subgenre that generally targets an entirely different market. And like I said, it doesn't really do Transformed any favours to anyway. Its multiplatform competition such as Need for Speed and even The Crew, etc sell in the multiple millions.

You're going to have to drop the whole "you omit things" deflection btw... Forgive me if I don't meticulously address each individual sentence of every post you make. It's not as though you're covering everything in each of my posts either... usually opting to instead say some dismissive shit like "second half was all over the place" whilst ignoring what I wrote and then complaining that I omitted something that I did address, and you ignored. You're the one that said I was being "delusional" to state that F-Zero GX wasn't light on content. I then address this in my response, taking the time to actually quantify GX's (substantial) content and features... to which you then respond with "well arcade racers don't sell, and that's the point".. as though you forgot what you just posted prior. I've given your posts far more detailed and respectful responses than they actually warrant.

The Albatross · Jan 27, 2016

Synth said:
It's true that not many people are interested (at least comparatively to other publishers)... but the rest of your post pretty much argues that a modern day Mozart would be shit in comparison to Skrillex, and that maybe if they added a good "drop" like everyone else is doing, and the market has proven they want, then they'd be more successful... or at least make each tack loop so the album is twice the length.

I mean, it a valid suggestion in regards to getting them better numbers.... but isn't very helpful overall as then the sort of audience that'd have asked the question in the first place would simply not be catered to at all.

Well, Mozart was commissioned to compose. I think the analogy would be if Mozart were commissioned to make a new classical composition and, instead, composed some atonal cacophony of Schoenberg, something none of his commissioners really want but might appeal to some distinct minority in 250 years.

Synth · Jan 27, 2016

The Albatross said:
Well, Mozart was commissioned to compose. I think the analogy would be if Mozart were commissioned to make a new classical composition and, instead, composed some atonal cacophony of Schoenberg, something none of his commissioners really want but might appeal to some distinct minority in 250 years.

Too complicated lol... How about nobody commissions him to, but he composed it anyway (in 2016 somehow), because he assumed people would just want to buy it (but they didn't)?

l3lacklvlagic · Jan 27, 2016

NDP_Mulcair said:
Good answer.

When Jet Set Radio Future was a flop in the USA (only 100K copies sold in its lifetime), it nearly broke my heart.

Jet Set Radio Future deserved at least 10 times the sales.

But apparently people don't like fantastic games.

Wasn't jsrf and a racing Game bundled with the og Xbox?

Arc Christelle · Jan 27, 2016

Synth said:
Not attacking your opinion (if anything that what you did when dismissing my points as "fanboy subjetism". I was honestly just curious if it's actually a sincere one. Seeing as your reply indicates that it is, then I respond as I was going to before I saw it.

- F-Zero GX shipped in 2003, with 26 courses, 41 ships (each with a unique driver), a 9 chapter story mode (along with the more typical 5 cup championships), 4 player split screen, ship customization (build entire ships by match parts, with each then even having its own unique name), full character bios (each with a theme of their own), and even fucking data transfers between home console and the arcade... Considering at this point in time there was practically no online racers at all on consoles (there'd be Moto GP on OG Xbox.. and a handful of Sega projects), I think it's actually pretty difficult to convincingly make the case the F-Zero GX was anything other than above average in terms of content and features for a racer at the time. Sure you one or two outliers like Gran Turismo... but certainly not enough to skew the average like that. So no, I'm not being delusional. I just recall the market F-Zero GX was releasing into, and how it stacked up. The game is pretty much tailor made as a response to your Racer A vs Racer B metaphor.

- Yes I do think an online-only GTA would sell well (and by well, I mean I'd expect it to outsell pretty much everything still save for maybe CoD). You talk like there aren't example of purely multiplayer focused games selling incredibly well. Titanfall had damn near a 50% attach ratio to the XB1 console at the time of release.. SW Battlefront has purportedly sold over 12 million units, despite not only lacking any meaningful singleplayer content, but also sufficient multiplayer content too. A stand-alone GTA Online would still clean house. I'm surprised you'd even bring something like that up.

Yes content isn't just a checklist.. but that's pretty much what you've been trying to reduce it to when claiming Sega games lack stuff from other games. But these other games don't even consistently include these things either. You're having to constantly re-adjust the criteria, because you're really trying to describe something intangible. And it's intangible, because really... it's just subjective... not quantifiable. Like you said, how much does Sonic Racing Transformed sell without Sonic, but everything else exactly the same? How much does it now sell with the characters swapped out with Mario characters? This was actually my point for bringing Sonic Transformed up btw, not to say it sold like shit... but that despite being more content and feature rich than Mario Kart 8 to a pretty much objective extent, it still got outsold like 7:1 despite being budget priced and on every major system (including PC)... versus the fucking Wii U alone. The content wasn't the issue, and nothing short of actually having Mario was gonna change that.

We're really arguing much the same thing, but calling it differently. We both agree that largely the types of games Sega releases limit them.. but you're calling the difference "content" to describe a whole host of other factors, such as brand recognition, or something just being seen as "cool" at the time. This boils back down to my original point of comparing modern pop music with something classical.The very nature of what it is limits it, and you can't fix that by simply adding shit on the side.. you say people don't buy arcade racers, then content-wise nothing Sega added was going to make F-Zero GX a huge success. It'd have to stop being F-Zero and be Need for Speed instead for that to happen.

I'm also not claiming that adding things wouldn't make the games sell better. I'm confident that F-Zero GX would have sold much worse then it did, if it actually were light on content... but selling better, and selling well aren't necessarily the same thing. Also can we stop dwelling on Binary Domain... I said that I'll be fine conceding that one, as I haven't even played it (hell I even stated that they sent it to die by releasing it up against ME3, before we even started this discussion). You were addressing their library in general, not just that one game (or it and Virtua Fighter).

Synth, I love you, so I'm not gonna let you suffer mad hours with this, I'mma point out one thing that would make you reconsider continuing this discussion with Another48Hours.

He/She never mad their argument clear about what Sega games "lack". You're pretty much going through a checklist with a person who just assumed you'd figure it out from the most vague of statements and nothing to clarify or support his argument.

(Nothing personal Another48Hours, but I ain't bout to have a long discussion with no clear point... that's silly.)

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Synth said:
You're (*) full of crap.

Halo struggled to amass significantly more than Titanfall over a year into the console's life on roughly double the user base, and TF's sales compared favourably with CoD:Ghosts and BF4 (which by your previous logic would have been benefitting from a reduced library selection at launch). If TF sold under expectations (which I'm assuming you're just making up, as EA, MS and Respawn have officially stated otherwise), then that would more likely be to do with the Xbox One's place in the market in comparison to the PS4. There were complaints about the content (same with SW Battlefront), yea... but it still sold fuckloads regardless. You're going to have to accept that

Sure, you can consider Kart Racers a subgenre of arcade racers... that still doesn't make a comparison to another Kart Racer less fitting than another subgenre that generally targets an entirely different market. And like I said, it doesn't really do Transformed any favours to anyway. Its multiplatform competition such as Need for Speed and even The Crew, etc sell in the multiple millions.

You're going to have to drop the whole "you omit things" deflection btw... Forgive me if I don't meticulously address each individual sentence of every post you make. It's not as though you're covering everything in each of my posts either... usually opting to instead say some dismissive shit like "second half was all over the place" whilst ignoring what I wrote and then complaining that I omitted something that I did address, and you ignored. You're the one that said I was being "delusional" to state that F-Zero GX wasn't light on content. I then address this in my response, taking the time to actually quantify GX's (substantial) content and features... to which you then respond with "well arcade racers don't sell, and that's the point".. as though you forgot what you just posted prior. I've given your posts far more detailed and respectful responses than they actually warrant.

See now your lying and making shit up about what I said. Your GX statement is pathetic. How about honesty before continuing the discussion.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Synth said:
hhgg

Fzero is a niche subset of a genre that doesn't usually sell that well period.

Tf dissapointed a lot, even here on this form, based on hype, I didn't say anything about EA, Ms, or Res, which the latter two said nothing. Halo did not struggle you outsell it, TF took months to reach what I said before, and it died off fast, with it being bundled all over, even later on being a lead bundle for tier 2. Funny thing is this is irrelevant, and a desperate attempt to switch the convo.

Let's go over Sega's games last Gen

2005:

Virtua Quest, lack of content compared to comp.

Shining Tears, lack of content compared to comp.

Iron Phoenix, lack of content compared to comp.

Spikeout, lack of content compared to comp.

2006:

Outrun, lack of content compared to comp.

Yakuza, lack of content compared to comp

2007:

Vf5, lack of content compared to comp

Sega Rally, lack of content compared to comp.

Golden Compass, lack of content compared to comp

2008:

The Club, lack of content compared to comp.

Viking asgard, lack of content compared to comp.

Universe at war, lack of content compared to comp.

Golden Axe Beast Rider, lack of content compared to comp.

Yakuza 2, lack of content compared to comp.

And I can go on, or even go another Gen back but just on this here the problem.

1. 14 games in almost 4 years.

2. This issues is from developed and published games.

3. This shows it's been an issue for awhile.

4. These games are. OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, meaning I did not include DD or portable games, I'm likely misding games, and likely the number will be quite a bit more than 14.

You can nitpick 1 or two games trying to change the rules but it womt help you. It's a big issue Sega has had for yeaarsss even during Xbox,ps2 era as well. They have learned ZERO and neither HAVE THEIR FANS, which they need to start ignoring.

gelf · Jan 28, 2016

Another48Hours said:
snip

I could try arguing back on some of those examples but on reading this thread I realise its never been clear what you mean by "lack of content" here. Do you mean lack of content in terms of 1) the amount of content a game has, 2) the type of content it has, 3) its content is not aesthetically as appealing as the competition, 4) All of the above 5) something else?

It's not worth engaging with you unless that's clear as your responses to Synth have been confusing as hell.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

gelf said:
I could try arguing back on some of those examples but on reading this thread I realise its never been clear what you mean by "lack of content" here. Do you mean lack of content in terms of 1) the amount of content a game has, 2) the type of content it has, 3) its content is not aesthetically as appealing as the competition, 4) All of the above 5) something else?

It's not worth engaging with you unless that's clear as your responses to Synth have been confusing as hell.

I've said one and three so many times In so many posts that if you are confuse it's literally. your fault and you didn't bother reading. Not trying to be rude but I've said the same thing multiple times. In fact at times almost using the exact words you wrote.

But now that you know please, if you see something off let me know.

Shadoken · Jan 28, 2016

ROFL @Virtua Fighter 5 lacking in content/depth. Do you even play fighting games? Thats the last thing anyone would say about VF.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Shadoken said:
ROFL @Virtua Fighter 5 lacking in content/depth. Do you even play fighting games? Thats the last thing anyone would say about VF.

Content is not the fighting engine and I never said depth.

A game like say MK having more CONTENT then VF is not debatable. Mk is the only fighting series that is constantly overly praised for it's content.

Synth · Jan 28, 2016

Arc Christelle said:
Synth, I love you, so I'm not gonna let you suffer mad hours with this, I'mma point out one thing that would make you reconsider continuing this discussion with Another48Hours.

He/She never mad their argument clear about what Sega games "lack". You're pretty much going through a checklist with a person who just assumed you'd figure it out from the most vague of statements and nothing to clarify or support his argument.

Yea, you're right. We're obviously not getting anywhere (and the conversation is just becoming increasingly hostile), so I'm gonna drop it after this.

Another48Hours said:
I've said one and three so many times In so many posts that if you are confuse it's literally. your fault and you didn't bother reading. Not trying to be rude but I've said the same thing multiple times. In fact at times almost using the exact words you wrote.

But now that you know please, if you see something off let me know.

Ok, this was partially my fault for trying to quantify what "content" was beyond a vague "shit that sells".

1) the amount of content a game has.
3) its content is not aesthetically as appealing as the competition.

Lacking in point 1 would be fine to term as a "lack of content", and this is what I've been disagreeing with (and would disagree with far more than "1 or 2" of the games you just listed). Lacking in point 3 would be a "lack of appeal", not a "lack of content". It'd be incorrect to say that a bowl of fruit suffers a "lack of fruit" compared to another fruit bowl because it's full of mango, and the other is full of apples, with apples being by far more popular.. If you want to state that Sega games simply lack the appeal of more mainstream games, then that's fine, and I wouldn't even disagree.. but when you use the same word to describe both cases, then the point just becomes stupid and is a case of "the games don't sell because they didn't sell"... which is the most useless point that could ever be made in a thread like this. You can use point 3 to say that Halo MCC lacks "content" compared to the original release of Destiny, because sales dictate that its content is not as appealing to mainstream customers. It's an incorrect usage of the term though.

Shadoken · Jan 28, 2016

Another48Hours said:
Content is not the fighting engine and I never said depth.

A game like say MK having more CONTENT then VF is not debatable. Mk is the only fighting series that is constantly overly praised for it's content.

I agree with the other games but not VF and Yakuza. Yakuza has a lot of content even if the world might be smaller.

Content in fighting games is characters,depth and some nice arcade and training modes. Which VF excels in. Only thing really lacking is story mode , which almost all fighters lack like Tekken,SF,SC..etc. With the exception of MK it has same level of content as the competition.

Also didnt VF5 sell pretty well for an Xbox exclusive fighter? And VF4 sold like 4m+ or something.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Shadoken said:
I agree with the other games but not VF and Yakuza. Yakuza has a lot of content even if the world might be smaller.

Content in fighting games is characters,depth and some nice arcade and training modes. Which VF excels in. Only thing really lacking is story mode , which almost all fighters lack like Tekken,SF,SC..etc

Again, depth is not content, it's a mechanic.

Tekken, MK are examples of games that have more content them VF, It's not really debatable.

Yakuza1&2 pales in comparison to a lot of action adventure fames. Some Sega fans I've seen over the years argue it has less content then Shenmue 1&2.

Also VF 5 was not Xbox exclusive.

Celine · Jan 28, 2016

Shadoken said:
Also didnt VF5 sell pretty well for an Xbox exclusive fighter? And VF4 sold like 4m+ or something.

VF4 (PS2) LTD is 1.68 million units.
VF5 was available on PS3 too.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Celine said:
VF4 (PS2) LTD is 1.68 million units.
VF5 was available on PS3 too.

In fact vf5 was timed exclusive to ps3. Also had no online.

Shadoken · Jan 28, 2016

Aww shit I got it mixed up. But regardless , VF sold pretty well for a Fighting game. I mean its not Tekken,MK,SF. But its in the tier below. And I dont think Content would help the game , it needs to become more flashier and casual friendly if they want sales.

Another48Hours · Jan 28, 2016

Shadoken said:
Aww shit I got it mixed up. But regardless , VF sold pretty well for a Fighting game. I mean its not Tekken,MK,SF. But its in the tier below. And I dont think Content would help the game , it needs to become more flashier and casual friendly if they want sales.

No not really.

Vf5 lacked tons of things including online. It really didn't have too much to market as a big improvement over 4 either.

VF had more than what some were offering though, which is why it got more than kof etc. But not enough for the mid to high fighters.

Arc Christelle · Jan 29, 2016

That weird feeling when you want to press the quote button but you know better.

Psycho Echidna · Jan 29, 2016

Last I heard a game's main interest is its gameplay , not amount of content ... how much fun you have with the game and how often you come back to it so it makes you happy ( design/art, world, OST, mechanics...)

The "content" trolling is actually irrelevant for an entertainment ...

It's like buying a book for his number of pages or watching movie that lasts no less than X minutes.

AlfonzoPalutena · Jan 29, 2016

Looking at recent games, they seem to be terrible, (Some of the new Sonic games), or really Japanese (Bayonetta).

Don't get me wrong, I love Bayonetta, but the entire game is the definition of niche

Another48Hours · Jan 29, 2016

Psycho Echidna said:
Last I heard a game's main interest is its gameplay , not amount of content ... how much fun you have with the game and how often you come back to it so it makes you happy ( design/art, world, OST, mechanics...)

The "content" trolling is actually irrelevant for an entertainment ...

It's like buying a book for his number of pages or watching movie that lasts no less than X minutes.

If you want to pretend making your game stand out or having at least a marginal amount of features that a lot are accustomed yo doesn't matter than that beyond crazy.

I can have a fighting game or a fps with the best gameplay of all time never to be topped in 50 years, but if the game is 2 hours and 7 stages, with nothing else, no real story, no variety of things to do, no mp, no modes, lack of options, lack of interactivity, no atmosphere, no online in anyway, lack of more than 5 characters etc. It's not going to do well.

One other issue is fun is subjective, an issue Square and Sega fans seem to have an issue with in my view the last 10 years. This thread is about sales and flops not emotions.

Agan, a game like BD or BF may be fun to me and you, but as I said above, a game like VF5 having not much content, and also lacking online can very well turn people off that at least expect online or something to make up for it like more modes.

One of the main issues of thos thread is most the fans forgot what this thread is about and personal preferences doesn't spread out to the general population that buys games.

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