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Is there a market for a traditional Tomb Raider game?

C

Caipirinha

Member
The original Tomb Raider games are probably in my top 3 favourite series of all time, and it wasn't for the third person shooter elements (lol)... It was for this:

tr2lvl1_web.jpg


The feeling of being dropped, alone, into an unexplored wilderness and having only yourself to rely on to traverse it and discover it's hidden secrets.

I think that the reason the Tomb Raider series ended up becoming basically a generic third person shooter is because that exploration/tomb raiding gameplay has not been iterated upon in a way that maintains it's ability to be the central element of a game.

In Legend, for example, the traversal remained unchanged and in fact simplified. Big bright UI markers for an automatic grappling hook for example.

So instead of building on the way Lara explored the environment, devs slowly just replaced the exploration with bog standard cover based shooting that just happened to be in vaguely tomb-like locations.

I feel like the industry thought that the relative failure of Legend and Anniversary was because they were "true successors" to the originals, but the former definitely wasn't and the latter was a remake, it didn't really expand on the originals the way you'd need to to make it work today. Remaking GTA 2 and not having a commercial success wouldn't mean that GTA 3 wouldn't be a huge success, because the latter really expanded the original concept without betraying it.


Is there room for a proper tomb raiding game in which combat is a minor element and instead you're once again dropped into, now more open and non-linear, will environments to explore and solve puzzles - on your own - where the challenge comes from 1) taking the time to explore 2) executing difficult and non-UI guided feats of acrobatics and using tools like mountain climbing gear in a non-scripted way?

Some gameplay elements I think would be awesome:

• "See that mountain, you can go there" level design
• Grappling/rock climbing tools that can be used on any realistic surface
• Destructible scenery that can work to/against your advantage
• Realistic injury system ie. can sprain your ankle to limit run speed, can perform mini games using consumables to repair some injuries etc.
• No QTEs ever

Or would that game just bomb..?
 
It might bomb, but I would always choose an older Tomb Raider game over the new Uncharted clone. And by older TR I mean the first ones (TR1,TR2,TR3,TR4).

Q3GFCOl.gif
 
RyosukeTH said:
It might bomb, but I would always choose an older Tomb Raider game over the new Uncharted clone. And by older TR I mean the ones on the PSX (TR1,TR2,TR3,TR4).
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I love Uncharted and have kind of adopted sit in TRs place purely because it gets a lot of the "feels" right, but gameplay wise it's exactly where I wish TR wouldn't go..

I think people just haven't figured out how to make the "exploration mechanics" engaging enough to be the central part of the game. Jumping toward a ledge whilst holding X does not a game make anymore.

Making it truly non-linear would be essential imo. I think a lot of PS1 games felt non-linear because of our 3D naivety and the graphical fidelity, so when we found that secret room etc. we feel like we did it our own way - obviously now that's not the case, we can see straight through it and it just looks like a linear play area. That feeling of exploration is non-existent with these kind of level design:

bolivia03.jpg


patapuf said:
There is, i don't know if it's big enough for a game with the production values of the reboot though.
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Good thing is I don't think a proper TR game really needs mega production values. I mean it needs a lot of work on the environment, but you need barely any voice acting, writing, cinematics etc.
 
Still waiting for a CORE kickstarter. There's definitely a market. Look what all these kickstarted games have proved recently. There is an ultra hardcore fanbase of classic PC-era titles that will pay for non-homogenized, BBB-level content that is modestly budgeted and delivered without large marketing campaigns.
 
Look.
Fool the consumer.
Make them think it's like TR 2013 or your average TPS shooty bang with exotic locations.
Then when they play it and see all that platforming, let them rant, cuz by then you sould 500K+
 
RyosukeTH said:
It might bomb, but I would always choose an older Tomb Raider game over the new Uncharted clone. And by older TR I mean the ones on the PSX (TR1,TR2,TR3,TR4).

Q3GFCOl.gif
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if you liked Anniversary at all? I think it took all of the good things of the first game and made it better. Just curious on your stance in a "newer" Tomb Raider title that was well-received by the core fans (and Core fans) - at least from my observations.
 
There's plenty of classic TR fans still around who would buy something like this, myself included...but yeah it wouldn't sell nearly as well as something as derivative as the reboot would.
 
itchyass86 said:
I'm wondering if you liked Anniversary at all? I think it took all of the good things of the first game and made it better. Just curious on your stance in a "newer" Tomb Raider title that was well-received by the core fans (and Core fans) - at least from my observations.
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I only played a bit of Anniversary, to be honest. Need to give that another chance.
 
Thought Underworld was close to the old games, very puzzle orientated. Probably my favorite. Not sure how it sold but was fairly recent, late 2008.
 
tbh, I've had more fun with La Mulana than with any TR game, but if I had to say, it still has a market, just not a big one.

Hopefully the new one does indeed feature more tombs and puzzles like the devs said.


I also wonder if Uncharted or TR couldn't change a bit the puzzles and level design to make it more challenging, and then lock those changes behind a difficulty level... At least that would please old fans (I think...)
 
I would love a game like TR 2013 but focused solely on their survival and exploration only, no 'others' in there. Like a proper survival againzt the elements game, but with the story elements of her trying to keep the group intact. Basically, I'd love to play the game with just the runnning around, no enemies (maybe some animals).

No major publisher will touch it, I'm sure. They'll just ask where the shooting bits are.
 
Y2Kev said:
Still waiting for a CORE kickstarter. There's definitely a market. Look what all these kickstarted games have proved recently. There is an ultra hardcore fanbase of classic PC-era titles that will pay for non-homogenized, BBB-level content that is modestly budgeted and delivered without large marketing campaigns.
Click to expand...

yeah i'd love to see toby gard and the original team get back together to do a kickstarter.

that said, because of the tr4/5 editing tools there are tons of fantastic map packs/modifications and, basically, completely new games based on the original engine. a classic revival probably won't ever happen, but it's not like we have nothing.
 
Hopefully the new TR game mixes up the variation and survival, alongside some actual tomb raiding. MS have a great chance to blend the two styles together and make a great game.
 
CanUKlehead said:
I would love a game like TR 2013 but focused solely on their survival and exploration only, no 'others' in there. Like a proper survival againzt the elements game, but with the story elements of her trying to keep the group intact. Basically, I'd love to play the game with just the runnning around, no enemies (maybe some animals).

No major publisher will touch it, I'm sure. They'll just ask where the shooting bits are.
Click to expand...

TR 2013 was the definition of linear though..
 
I think there is, but the question is really about whether someone will bother to make one to find out and prove it or just assume it isn't there. Guess we need a Kickstarter for that, too. Hope that RotTR incorporates classic Tomb Raider exploration/platforming focus instead of being an Uncharted clone.
 
bengraven said:
Isn't that what Legend Anniversary was?
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Fix'd that for you. Legend was mostly shoot-bang game with platforming element (most of them automatic) and few physic-based puzzles here and there. It wasn't bad, but it was far from traditional Tomb Raider games. Also, Alister and Zip constantly talking to you via headphones ruined the isolation part of the experience.

Anniversary was more faithful to the original games with its focus on platforming and puzzle solving. It still had the issues most AAA games have nowadays (hand-holding, obvious landing points with white ledges, intrusive UI that helps you even if you don't want it to, QTE, focus on the story, "cinematic experience"), but it was the closest we could get to a classic TR game. I remember even the tutorial part of the game (the mansion) had a lot of puzzles to solve if you wanted to finish the optional side quest.

itchyass86 said:
I'm wondering if you liked Anniversary at all? I think it took all of the good things of the first game and made it better. Just curious on your stance in a "newer" Tomb Raider title that was well-received by the core fans (and Core fans) - at least from my observations.
Click to expand...

I liked Anniversary, but replaying the original Tomb Raider last year made it clear how much easier Anniversary was. Some of that came from the "clunkiness" of old Tomb Raider's control that required you to be very precise (sometimes pushing the jump button one step to late would cause Lara not to jump at all), but most of that came from the very rough level design in the original game. In old Tomb Raider games you could hold on to basically any ledge that was in your reach so it wasn't really clear where you have to go. Sometimes you just saw a platform somewhere with a switch, a door or an item and you had to look for a proper path yourself. It didn't help when the game teased at the beginning of the level, showing you a platform with obvious key item that was out of your reach, but you eventually ended up picking that item half hour later, after struggling with a lot of platforming, puzzles and death traps. The game also didn't show you exactly where the exit is or, if you pulled a level or pressed a switch, what did the level/switch do (sometimes it just showed you door opening/closing somewhere in the level, other times you just heard a noise).
 
Raide said:
Hopefully the new TR game mixes up the variation and survival, alongside some actual tomb raiding. MS have a great chance to blend the two styles together and make a great game.
Click to expand...

MS ain't doing anything, and RotTR is gonna the same shooter 2013 was with platforming for dummies.
 
Stallion Dan said:
MS ain't doing anything, and RotTR is gonna the same shooter 2013 was with platforming for dummies.
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Aww. I really hope they actuall have some great Tombs to raid but I also see what you're saying. :(

Caipirinha said:
They just paid for a few months of exclusivity, the game is coming to other platforms in 2016.
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They will treat it like 1st Party for those few months. It will be one of their big hitters for this year.
 
I think there's a market for just about anything if you make it well enough. Right now, services like Steam are thriving on niche and specific genres, and I don't see how something like this would be unwelcomed.
 
Raide said:
They will treat it like 1st Party for those few months. It will be one of their big hitters for this year.
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For sure but afaik they are playing no role in the development at all.

But yeah from the looks/sounds of it it's just a linear TPS again.
 
Tomb Raider 1 and 2 were action puzzle platformers where the puzzles were often ambient... "I know I need to find a cog for this wheel... and I suspect it's 'over there' [platform high above you] ... but how do I get there?"

There are some new games similar to this concept; I'd say Portal is the best example and probably the best example of this, ever. But, games like Guacamelee! could count as well, even though it's a 2D game. There have also been some recent games that played on this, noteably, Assassins Creed 2, and AC2 did this really well... but Ubi seems determined to drop everything that was great about AC2.

The question of whether there is a market is valid... but I think the modern gaming industry has proven that there is simply a market for great games. Make a great game and people will buy it. In 2007, you could have asked "Is there a market for a non-violent first person shooter?" And, in lieu of runaway hits like Gears of War, GRAW, the Call of Duties, and what have you, you'd say "nah, unlikely..." But then Portal came out and it proved absolutely marketable.
 
Is there a place? Absolutely Yes.

Is there a budget for a AAA caliber title? Depends on Square.

The Naughty Dog Uncharted formula works, works extremely well for action-adventure. It was too attractive for Crystal to ignore. I mean, the work is done for you, just replicate it with your own twists here and there that fit your own theme = Tomb Raider reboot. Then again, it was certainly not easy... how long did it took them 4 years dev? Funny thing going by what their lead said - they're going after TLOU's formula this time - more or less.
 
And as for the question in the title - sure there is. It just might be not big enough to attract big companies with their big budgets (even though they might be wrong - see Pillars of Eternity for example). However, there are indie developers and/or kickstarting, so there's still hope.
 
itchyass86 said:
I'm wondering if you liked Anniversary at all? I think it took all of the good things of the first game and made it better. Just curious on your stance in a "newer" Tomb Raider title that was well-received by the core fans (and Core fans) - at least from my observations.
Click to expand...

Anniversary lost all the skill a player was required to master in the early Core Design Tomb Raider games, i.e. Tomb Raider was all about difficult jumps & overcoming the environment in terms of knowing where she could climb or jump based upon the height & distance.

Crystal Dynamics games reduced the skill level dramatically, without the need for precision which IMO made the first 5 Tomb Raiders so brilliant.

Press A for awesome was not an option in the original TR's. Imagine a game where you stand on a ledge & think "can I make this jump???", without a checkpoint or health regen, that was Tomb Raider.

So to answer the OP, yes, I'd be part of the market for games like Tomb Raider 1 through to 5.
 
We will always have Tomb Raider: Anniversary and the original games, which play great still.

The original games were never much to look at even in their day.
 
Y2Kev said:
Still waiting for a CORE kickstarter. There's definitely a market. Look what all these kickstarted games have proved recently. There is an ultra hardcore fanbase of classic PC-era titles that will pay for non-homogenized, BBB-level content that is modestly budgeted and delivered without large marketing campaigns.
Click to expand...

Indeed. And going by the market share from the PSX era it would definitely drive many more faithful followers to support it. There are games who hasn't reach the level of success TR has and was able to have a solid backing through kickstarter. I'm willing to even bet this would be the largest funded kickstarter if "CORE" ever brings it to the table.
 
Y2Kev said:
Still waiting for a CORE kickstarter. There's definitely a market. Look what all these kickstarted games have proved recently. There is an ultra hardcore fanbase of classic PC-era titles that will pay for non-homogenized, BBB-level content that is modestly budgeted and delivered without large marketing campaigns.
Click to expand...

i'm hoping that yooka-laylee is a sign that we could be seeing some ps1/n64 style indie games in the future.
 
There would be from me. Something like Uncharted but with more sluggish / realistic climbing mechanics and a lot, a lot, a LOT more puzzles, traps, secret rooms, and non-linear design. Keep the same treasure-hunting-for-money-and-thrills vibe intact, though.

I'd be all over dat
 
And in general terms I'd love to see risk come back into jumping and climbing, regardless of genre. Everything is so automated now you can really only die by either having comically slow reflexes or by hitting the release button. Climbing going back to being an actual mechanic rather than just a "move" would be really cool.
 
The last old Tomb Raider game I played was Underworld.
Even tho the game had its flaws, I really enjoyed it. I wish the franchise went back to that.
 
I'd like to see a game like that, preferably an actual TR game, but I doubt it'll happen. I love the original TR game up to IV. The exploring, the big environments (for me at that time relative to other action adventure games I played) the few actual fights against humans. It was awesome. Now as many have said TR is pretty much an Uncharted clone with just as much shooting. From what they have shown from the new game you will at least have actual tombs to raid in 2 and hopefully be able to go to multiple locations (main reason why I do not like TR remake and U1 too much is because it is set on one island).

Maybe they should make or let someone make an actual classic TR game instead of a third Guardian of Light-like game. I doubt it though unless the former Core employees are still around, interested and want to make a kickstarter maybe.

Edit: I have also heard some things about custom levels and stuff people made with the tools from Chronicles. Did anyone maybe bother to put a half-decent game together from all the custom levels? Something like a spiritual successor? Would be cool to know if someone knows about something like this.
 
Raide said:
Hopefully the new TR game mixes up the variation and survival, alongside some actual tomb raiding. MS have a great chance to blend the two styles together and make a great game.
Click to expand...

no way they go back to the original TR formula now. MS wanted a counter to Uncharted and that's what Crystal is making.
 
Didn't care much for the original TR games, but really liked Legend and Underworld. I thought those had a nice balance of tomb raiding and shooty-shooty.

I also really liked the reboot, but I did miss the more expansive tombs. Either way, I like RotTR is going to be great fun.
 
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