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Fallout 4: Changing the Shooting Mechanics

C

CraigerGamer

Member
Posted in the other FO thread, but didn't want to derail that discussion. So, here we go

http://http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/video-games/11723096/Fallout-4-interview-Bethesdas-Todd-Howard-on-building-the-apocalypse.html

Can we talk about the gunplay part of the article? Or perhaps it needs a new thread?

By his own admission, Howard has said that the gunplay in Fallout 3 was not as good as it could have been. One of the main criticisms of that game’s action was that its blend of first-person shooting and behind the scenes stat-crunching that characterises RPGs leant too heavily on the latter. You would line up what looked to be a clean headshot, only for the game to decide you had missed because your abilities were not high enough.

Fallout 4 doesn’t shy away from statistics and dice-rolling —it remains an RPG first and foremost, says Howard— but one of Bethesda’s goals was to “make it feel great as an action game.” If you’re good at aiming, says Howard, you can compensate somewhat for lower stats. But not entirely, as Fallout’s myriad systems are layered on top of the improved action.
Click to expand...

It concerns me that they are making the game more action than RPG. I don't want to be able to shoot across the map with precision if my Toon is not capable, regardless of how well I use a mouse.
 
B

Blue Ninja

Member
CraigerGamer said:
It concerns me that they are making the game more action than RPG. I don't want to be able to shoot across the map with precision if my Toon is not capable, regardless of how well I use a mouse.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you'll still have trouble doing that, though. Don't think we'll see a Mass Effect 2 situation here.
 
R

Ralemont

not me
Good. If the game makes you aim manually then your aiming should be the primary determinant behind your effectiveness. On the other hand, if you want to crunch stats, just do VATS all the time a la Vagrant Story. In-between stuff is not fun in a shooter. See: Mass Effect 1.
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Good news. I would like to be rewarded for my real-world skill rather than basing it mostly on RNG %'s. Hopefully the gunplay feels better as well.
 
P

Pakkidis

Member
Alpha protocol relies almost exclusively at its stats for aiming/damage and that game got a lot of bad press, so its not surprising that developers don't think its such a great idea for the masses.

Alpha protocol was one of the best RPG's last generation :)
 
Irobot82

Irobot82

Member
Ralemont said:
Good. If the game makes you aim manually then your aiming should be the primary determinant behind your effectiveness. On the other hand, if you want to crunch stats, just do VATS all the time a la Vagrant Story. In-between stuff is not fun in a shooter. See: Mass Effect 1.
Click to expand...

Nafai1123 said:
Good news. I would like to be rewarded for my real-world skill rather than basing it mostly on RNG %'s. Hopefully the gunplay feels better as well.
Click to expand...

ME1 for me was the best of the three for that reason.

This news sucks for me. I'd be happy if this was an options toggle instead so I could keep my lovely numbers crunching in the background.
 
W

wanderjahr

Banned
CraigerGamer said:
I don't want to be able to shoot across the map with precision if my Toon is not capable.
Click to expand...

I kind of do. I mean, if I make the shot, I make the shot. I don't want an added mechanism telling me I missed if I clearly didn't. Why don't they just do a damage fall off or increase damage in proportion to your stats?
 
J

Jito

Banned
Sounds great, always pissed me off that I couldn't play it like a shooter even though it tried to look and play like one. VATS system is just way too easy and boring.
 
P

Pudge

Member
Wait a minute.

People want to aim in these games?

I always just assumed you hit VATS and watched heads explode if you were looking for an enjoyable experience.
 
R

Ralemont

not me
Pakkidis said:
Alpha protocol relies almost exclusively at its stats for aiming/damage and that game got a lot of bad press, so its not surprising that developers don't think its such a great idea for the masses.

Alpha protocol was one of the best RPG's last generation :)
Click to expand...

Not because of the way it handled combat. The combat was awful no matter how you tried to play it. I knew instantly I wanted to avoid shooting as much as possible, so I did stealth. Sadly the mechanics are underdeveloped and the hacking minigames are shit.

Game is great outside of that, though.

Pudge said:
Wait a minute.

People want to aim in these games?

I always just assumed you hit VATS and watched heads explode if you were looking for an enjoyable experience.
Click to expand...

If you could use VATS with full up-time, sure.
 
F

Fury451

Banned
GavinUK86 said:
Sounds perfect.

Not sure why it's a bad thing. I like to actually hit where I'm pointing.
Click to expand...

Because it's an RPG? If you don't have stats in certain things, you don't magically get better. It's not like real life where practice actually matters.

But it doesn't sound like it's going to make a difference here anyways, I'm not even sure what they're changing. I was able to do that (effective manual aim) in the past games without much trouble as well, maybe missing the occasional shots, but that's not unrealistic in real life either. So maybe they're just tweaking and boosting the effectiveness of manual aim a little bit. It seems like it will be more or less the same.

It's was never like X-COM where a sniper with 99% chance to hit from like 10 yards away will suddenly fire at a 90 degree angle into a gas station or something.
 
J

Johndoey

Banned
This is the way it has to be you can't entirely invalidate player ability in favor of stats, if you have a target lined up 5 yards away its not unreasonable to want to hit it. Stats ca't be ignored of course but still it is a first/third person game ability needs to be a determinant.
 
H

hobblygobbly

Member
Seems fine to me, if they've balanced it just right between the two as Todd Howard seems to suggest then that's the perfect approach for the game. If they balance player ability/skill along with stats/rolling just right, that's what I want. I don't want one to outweigh the other too much. You still want to retain the RPG elements of stats but it's also an action game too, so either you balance it right or make the decision to go for one of them exclusively. Personally if they had to make the decision to go for one exclusively I'd like the stats and VATS exclusively.
 
Irobot82

Irobot82

Member
wanderjahr said:
I kind of do. I mean, if I make the shot, I make the shot. I don't want an added mechanism telling me I missed if I clearly didn't. Why don't they just do a damage fall off or increase damage in proportion to your stats?
Click to expand...

because you are aiming with a mouse. Your character is likely a person who's never help a gun let alone accounted for wind speed and direction while making this 500y sniper shot.
 
T

TatteredHat

Member
I don't think there's a single Bethesda game that I would say "feels good as an action game", and I doubt this is going to break the trend.
 
artsi

artsi

Member
I for one welcome this change. Shooting (without VATS) in FO3 and fighting in Morrowind just felt bad to me.

Not expecting it to be much better but even little better is good.
 
J

Jito

Banned
FYI people try reading the article. It clearly says VATS is still in the game and it has RPG stats working behind the scenes.
 
M

matrix-cat

Member
Yeah, I'm fine with this. Damage calculations for you and the enemy can be left up to stats and the quality of your weapons and armour, but if I put my crosshairs on a face the bullet should hit that face. Futzing things to match your character's stats is understandable for melee combat RPGs, but I don't like it in shooting ones.
 
C

CryptiK

Member
CraigerGamer said:
It concerns me that they are making the game more action than RPG. I don't want to be able to shoot across the map with precision if my Toon is not capable, regardless of how well I use a mouse.
Click to expand...
Well if you read what you posted you will know you can't :/

And why are people mad about this? You can still use VATS. You don't have to try and compensate.

SG-17 said:
The casualization of Bethesda games continue.

Save us Obsidian, you're our only hope.
Click to expand...

How is it casualized? If anything it adds another layer of depth. The fuck are with these replies.
 
U

UrbanRats

Member
I'm afraid it'll end up feeling like a shallow RPG, but bad action game, sort of like Skyrim, in the combat department.
I hope it won't of course.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
So when I am shit at aiming, can the stats compensate for that and give me an occasional lucky headshot?
 
N

Nafai1123

Banned
Now that I think of it, it would be nice if they implemented bullet drop to compensate for real-world skill vs RPG skill. Each gun could have different drop rates so if you're playing it more as an action game, you need to actual compensate for distance/movement. That would be a good way to balance it with the strictly % based VATS system.
 
B

BLUElightCory

Member
It doesn't sound to me like they're "focusing on action," more like they're fixing the worst part about the gameplay of Fallout 3. They needed to do something about the real time combat. This is fine with me.
 
L

Lakitu

st5fu
A couple of things I noticed from the footage:

-There is recoil and of course the upgrades you make will have an affect on that as well as other things like range and accuracy.
-Bullet penetration is in, as in you shoot a post and the bullet will go through and damage it. There's also low-level destruction.
-Sniping now has a 'hold breath' function.
 
Tal Shiar Agent

Tal Shiar Agent

Member
CryptiK said:
How is it casualized? If anything it adds another layer of depth. The fuck are with these replies.
Click to expand...
It lessens the importance of your stats. I don't care how much Howard claims that their games are RPGs first. The evidence is to the contrary. They want to make action-adventure games now, not RPGs
The constellation system in Skyrim was nearly irrelevant for example.

Now the line between action-adventure RPG and an action-adventure game with RPG elements is progressively blurred.

To top it off we get a heavily predefined voiced character with a fucking Bioware dialog wheel.

Compare New Vegas to 3 and you'll see how shallow of an RPG modern Bethesda games are.
 
R

RockTurtle

Member
i'm cautiously pessimistic whenever bethesda says they are streamlining stuff.

that's how we ended up with shitty magic in skyrim, and the perks system

but i'll wait to see if they can deliver.
 
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