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Japan Returning to Form this gen? (Game Development wise)

G

Gunslinger

Member
Remember the nes, ps1,ps2 era? When Japanese games used to dominate the world with quality/innovative products. JRPGs ruled the world and rightfully so as lot of masterpieces came out during those era. But the 360 and ps3 era Japan IMO fell behind the western game development. Western games featured richer story, more innovation in games, and higher quality AAA titles. JRPGs almost went extinct in the AAA market, fighting games aside from MK almost went extinct for a while until SFIV etc.

A good insight to the Japanese gaming industry:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/why-japans-game-industry-is-falling-behind-gamespo/1100-6429675/

Basically they are now focusing more on mobile development and struggling with finding talented programmers to work with unity, unreal engine etc. (western developed engines). I highly recommend you read that article lot of good info.

But fast forward to this gen. And it seems to me Japan is coming back in form they are kicking ass at game development again like the used to a decade ago.

We got some great titles that are up to par in quality of ps1 and ps2 era this last two years such as:

bloodborne, nioh, resident evil 7, Final Fantasy xv, street fighter V, Dark souls 3, The last guardian, metal gear solid 5, Evil Within, Bayonetta 2, new Smash just to name a few.

just within a span of one month they released three goty contender (resident evil 7, Yakuza 0, and Nioh)

And upcoming games like persona 5, dragon quest xi, nino no kuni 2, FFVII remake(2050 release date), Legend of Zelda, nier etc.

What you guys think? You think Japan is making a comeback again? I really hope so as I miss playing good JRPGS in AAA space.
 
G

Glassboy

Member
I'm definitely feeling it more than I ever did in the 360/PS3/Wii era. Let's see if they can keep up the momentum
 
D

Dark Cloud

Member
I would say Japan is coming to the forefront again where they belong. They definitely struggled with the transition to HD, but the dust has settled and mobile has given them an avenue to make money since HD games cost more money.
 
B

bones123

Member
I was concerned about this very thing at the beginning of the new console life cycle. And needless to say, my fears have been calmed, especially in the last month. Yakuza 0, Kingdom Hearts 2.8, Nioh and Gravity Rush 2? Holy fuck, my appetite is already full, not to mention Final Fantasy XV and Persona 5, two of my most highly anticipated games of all time, releasing mere months apart.
 
F

family_guy

Member
I'd say so, but I'm a bit disappointed it's mostly sequels in long established franchises. That's not a Japan specific problem, but I always look forward to something completely new each generation.
 
D

daffy

Banned
If form is ps2 era than no, its not gonna happen this gen. Their turnaround times are still too large and they still haven't caught up to review aggregates and popularity of western studios. But PS5 maybe. Certainly not as dire as it was last gen.
 
Exentryk

Exentryk

Member
You forgot to add NieR, OP. But yeah, lots of good titles recently.

HardImmediateCats.gif
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
I feel like part of it is also the localisation of Japanese games seeming to happen more often. Like the Yakuza series for example.
 
Z

Zombine

Banned
Nioh
Yakuza 0
Gravity Rush 2
Resident Evil 6

And that's just the past month or so. They've really come back in a big way, and I'm glad for them.
 
K

kennyamr

Member
Japanese developers are clearly doing so much better this gen than last time.
Like you mentioned on the OP.
I still think they are still just a tad behind compared to the rest of the world but it is almost on par and definitely not like during the PS3 and 360 era.

I have to agree.
 
N

nath999

Member
We'll see, their development times for AAA games is still ridiculously long. A lot of these games that have just come out or came out last year came from development hell.

SE in particular has a pretty awful 2017 lined up.
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
Gunslinger said:
We got some great titles that are up to par in quality of ps1 and ps2 era this last two years such as:

bloodborne, ok
nioh, where's ninja gaiden?
resident evil 7 par for the course
Final Fantasy xv, was in development since PS3. Built on an engine that does nothing now
street fighter V,Sony had to save it
Dark souls 3,ok
The last guardian,development hell game
metal gear solid 5 Kojima was treated like a slave and the studio disbanded. Future of the franchise only exists as Pachinko erotic violence schoolgirls™
Evil Within, ok
Bayonetta 2, Nintendo had to save it
new Smash par for the course
Click to expand...

Edit: So future people don't quote this to death, I'm not questioning the quality. I think a comeback requires Japan to prove they have a future in producing more software. Otherwise how is making "good games" that different to what happen last gen?
You could say HD struggles, but that's exactly what I'm concerned with now.

I will praise The Evil Within though, since that was made by a new studio.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
We have been getting similar threads to this but I don't think Japan ever went away they just focused on different things than console last gen. It seems they have both changed their focus and realized that what Western gamers loved about Japanese games was the Japanese sensibilities in terms of a lot elements like the tightness and toughness of character action games or the strangeness and complexity of a lot of JRPG's. They kind of went after Western trends hard last gen. and we got games like Vanquish but also a lot of bland generic crap. Than and of course some major stumbles last gen that soured things a bit like FF XIII.

There is a lot of weird, interesting and fun looking games that have come out and continuing to come out and with some Western series and developers getting a bit long in tooth its refreshing getting more Japanese games at a normally slow point of the year. A Dark Souls style game from Team Ninja, TLG coming out after nearly a decade, Gravity Rush 2 going console, a Nier game codeveloped by Platinum Games, and so on and so forth.
 
H

HeisenbergWW62

Banned
Gunslinger said:
Yeah that's what I was talking about them being absent from the AAA space.
Click to expand...
Ya I admittedly just sorta skimmed through your post so I see that now
nath999 said:
We'll see, their development times for AAA games is still ridiculously long. A lot of these games that have just come out or came out last year came from development hell.

SE in particular has a pretty awful 2017 lined up.
Click to expand...
No lineup that includes Nier Automata can be awful
JordanN said:
I'm not seeing it. They still got a long way to go.
Click to expand...
Not sure if trolling or just bad post
 
S

Suzushiiro

Banned
Last gen the Japanese industry pretty much went in two opposite directions- either they tried to keep up with the western AAA market and failed miserably, making games that either tried to hard to be like western games that they lost what made Japanese games good or games that choked half to death on their own scope/budget, or they stopped giving a fuck about the western market entirely and focused on games for platforms/audiences that didn't really exist outside of Japan (ie most otaku-focused games.)

Unsurprisingly, the few international success stories out of Japan in that time were games that took a middle ground- mid-budget games that were decidedly different from what you'd get out of the big western publishers, but they were still accessible to foreign markets in terms of both platform choice and content (ie not super-weeb games like Senran Kagura.) Dark Souls is the biggest example of this, of course. It seems like most of the bigger Japanese publishers have taken notice of this and started making games that also fill that middle ground such as Nier, RE7, Nioh, and so on.

There's also the fact that last gen just fucked over the Japanese market so hard due to budget shock that it took a lot of the bigger games ridiculously long to actually make it out (TLG, Persona 5, FFV-XIII/XV)
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Just to note, Tales of Berseria is a good Tales game and probably on the top of my Tales list.
 
R

Roubjon

Member
JordanN said:
I'm not seeing it. They still got a long way to go.
Click to expand...

I don't understand any of your points here. All of those games came out and are good. Why does it matter that Ninja Gaiden isn't available today and that The Last Guardian took a long time to make?

Yo guys, Uncharted 4 is awesome, but fuck that game because where is Jak and Daxter??
 
entremet

entremet

Member
I still don't feel like they lost it.

They're relevance was diminished some, but that more of a huge growth with Western AAAs.

But we got Demon's/Dark Souls, The Galaxy games, SFIV, MGS4, Wii Sports, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden 2, Mario Kart DS, Pac Man DX, Etrian Odyssey 2/3, Dead Rising, Tales of Vesperia, Blue Dragon, and so on.
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
King_Moc said:
Literally none of your points say why those games aren't good.
Click to expand...

I don't think quality is an issue since Japan has always been releasing good games, even last gen. But to say Japan is making a comeback, I think those issues I pointed out need to be overcome first.
 
C

CertifiedFP

Member
Sakura said:
I feel like part of it is also the localisation of Japanese games seeming to happen more often. Like the Yakuza series for example.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'd see that as a side effect of increasing dev costs combined with the rapidly shrinking Japanese market.

At this point if you're a Japanese developer who wants to continue working on consoles, you have a choice between making something with the budget of a glorified handheld port (Neptunia, Nights of Azure, etc), or getting western sales to make up for your lack of Japanese sales.
 
B

Big0Bear

Member
Gunslinger said:
Remember the nes, ps1,ps2 era? When Japanese games used to dominate the world with quality/innovative products. JRPGs ruled the world and rightfully so as lot of masterpieces came out during those era. But the 360 and ps3 era Japan IMO fell behind the western game development. Western games featured richer story, more innovation in games, and higher quality AAA titles. JRPGs almost went extinct in the AAA market, fighting games aside from MK almost went extinct for a while until SFIV etc.

A good insight to the Japanese gaming industry:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/why-japans-game-industry-is-falling-behind-gamespo/1100-6429675/

Basically they are now focusing more on mobile development and struggling with finding talented programmers to work with unity, unreal engine etc. (western developed engines). I highly recommend you read that article lot of good info.

But fast forward to this gen. And it seems to me Japan is coming back in form they are kicking ass at game development again like the used to a decade ago.

We got some great titles that are up to par in quality of ps1 and ps2 era this last two years such as:

bloodborne, nioh, resident evil 7, Final Fantasy xv, street fighter V, Dark souls 3, The last guardian, metal gear solid 5, Evil Within, Bayonetta 2, new Smash just to name a few.

just within a span of one month they released three goty contender (resident evil 7, Yakuza 0, and Nioh)

And upcoming games like persona 5, dragon quest xi, nino no kuni 2, FFVII remake(2050 release date), Legend of Zelda, nier etc.

What you guys think? You think Japan is making a comeback again? I really hope so as I miss playing good JRPGS in AAA space.
Click to expand...

I would say no most of the games you mentioned are just pandering to the west. FF XV was good but too many aspects of it were way too generic. Zelda BotW was made open world because that's what 90% of adventure games in the west do. Re7 is an fps which is 95% of that games that come from the west are. And most of sfv is done by capcom USA and that game is only now decent.

Games like i am setsuna or bravely default are more a return to form. I would love for Jon games to be what they once were but I'm not sure if that will be possible with the huge emphasis on make games that can sell in the west.
 
Z

ZSaberLink

Media Create Maven
I like the games, but no they haven't come back or anything.

Capcom has become irrelevant in the West outside of RE and in Japan because of Monster Hunter. (RE7 looks like it may be a decline from 6 too despite being a good game). (They did well last gen unlike the other JP publishers).

Konami made MGSV and basically exited the dedicated games industry (except weirdly Bomberman thanks to Nintendo?).

Square Enix increased their output for sure. Although a good bit of it is Western games from Eidos.

Sega is still around. Sega continues to release generally mediocre to bad Sonic games (waiting for Mania!!!) and now has started localizing Yakuza more finally after it started declining in Japan lol. Things like Puyo Puyo, Miku, and Atlus games continue.

I'm not sure what to think of Namco. Tales seems to be either declining or hitting a bump in the road thanks to Zestiria and the kind of samey-ness since Xillia. Their licensed games seem to be doing fine though (Dragon ball, Naruto, etc.).

Koei Tecmo has lost Ninja Gaiden, had some success in the West with Hyrule Warriors, DOA5 turned F2P, and finally has a potentially popular new IP in Nioh.

Nintendo as a first party is still at it of course. I don't think they ever lost it though.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Gunslinger said:
I haven't played the recent tales game was it good? I saw it got good reviews.
Click to expand...

I like the cast. They're not your typical Tales cast and are the misfit, anti-hero group.
 
Dusktildawn48

Dusktildawn48

Member
I've never been much for Japanese games. But I've played 3 (FF, RE7, and nioh) lately. All awesome. And of course BB is 1 of the best games ever made.
 
H

HueyFreeman

Banned
JordanN said:
I'm not seeing it. They still got a long way to go.
Click to expand...

JordanN said:
I don't think quality is an issue since Japan has always been releasing good games, even last gen. But to say Japan is making a comeback, I think those issues I pointed out need to be overcome first.
Click to expand...

Let's dissect your comments then.

bloodborne, ok
Dark souls 3,ok
Evil Within, ok
Click to expand...

So right off the bat you agree that three of these games are good - or are you saying they're "just ok?" Cuz the latter is not really an argument.

nioh, where's ninja gaiden? - you'd rather a retread of an old series than TN trying to move forward? Also - this will be a theme - super well received.

resident evil 7 par for the course - ummm, how is the series moving in a never-before-attempted direction, and hugely risky given the pre-release discussions, "par for the course?" Also, it's been very well critically received.

Final Fantasy xv, was in development since PS3. Built on an engine that does nothing now - not clear - engine "does nothing?" Again, the game was critically received well.

street fighter V,Sony had to save it - no arguments here that this shouldn't be held up as a shining example of Japanese game development given the problematic launch - but it has a huge, hugely loyal community now

The last guardian,development hell game - again, the OP is not about duration of development. TLG made many GOTY lists, including GAFs

metal gear solid 5 Kojima was treated like a slave and the studio disbanded. Future of the franchise only exists as Pachinko erotic violence schoolgirls™ - OP is talking about the quality of the finished product. I wasn't partial to MGS5 but it was really well received and sold well.

Bayonetta 2, Nintendo had to save it - once again - say it together - so what? It's held up as a remarkable achievement in action game design.

new Smash par for the course - I haven't played it, but it also made many GOTY lists and has an enormous following.
Click to expand...

It all comes to the point that the OP was discussing quality and influence. None of your points really address any of that, and to say those issues need to be "overcome" is.. well, incorrect. Japan is on fire right now.

I think you want to have a separate discussion about the Japanese development process and/or efficiency, rather than the quality of the games they're producing, but that wasn't the OPs point and to be honest is not the most important issue. Western developers can get caught in quagmires as well.
 
G

Gunslinger

Member
Jawmuncher said:
I'm glad to see it. Gaming was getting pretty boring without them.
Click to expand...

I know man. Now they just gotta release that new DC. I have been waiting 16 years for real sequel to DC2. DC2 ended in a cliff hanger. I always thought regina was gonna go back and get Dylan and Paula.
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Hattori said:
better than Vesperia?
Click to expand...

I've never played Vesperia but I heard it's on par.

Plus the story of Berseria is consistent (and from the impressions, the story of Berseria is better).
 
D

dlauv

Member
There's a lot of collaboration with Sony, which is something western companies did a lot back in the PS3 days.
 
P

potatohead

Member
Yes.

The transition to programmable shaders for Japan was a fucking mess. Only CAPCOM seemed to be able to get through it easily with MT Framework.

The rest seemed to have made that transition too slowly and it hurt a lot of Japanese devs, sucks.

But good thing is seems like most are recovering, and with stuff like UE4 around it's even easier to move forward with new shader and graphics tech.

And yea Sony is putting their fingers into everything in Japan in a very nice way which is impressive. It's like they are basically helping Japan devs be ambitious again.

Like I have no idea how the fuck they got both CAPCOM and Namco to basically go all out ambitious and reinvent both AC and RE. It's fucking mad in an awesome way. And both support VR. Crazy.

Lead by example as they say.
 
JordanN

JordanN

Banned
HueyFreeman said:
It all comes to the point that the OP was discussing quality and influence. None of your points really address any of that, and to say those issues need to be "overcome" is.. well, incorrect. Japan is on fire right now.
Click to expand...

So why does the thread title and the core of the OP's post talk about game development? That has nothing to do with quality.

If you want to talk about comeback, then I don't see how you can divorce issues like Kojima no longer being apart of Metal Gear. Where is the next game going to come from? Or Bayonetta 2, despite being a good game, almost didn't happen without a 1st party picking it up. Who will make Bayonetta 3? Is it a comeback when a series still exists in jeopardy?

If you want to talk about comeback, I would try listing things that show growth. How about new studios? Or breaking sales records? Those are the things that have a bigger chance of Japan influencing the world, than what a metascore percentage says.
 
L

Lucentto

Banned
Hattori said:
better than Vesperia?
Click to expand...

Just giving my two cents here as I have played through both Vesperia and Berseria.

It's actually really hard for me to say which one is better. As far as story and characters go though I would say Berseria is far better than Vesperia. Vesperia does a few things better like dungeon and field design. Overall I would say both of them are absolutely must plays. Both of them are top tier Tales games and JRPGs in general.
 
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