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to the religious people on here

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I would like to know what going to church every sunday has done to your life?

Does it bring you a sense of peace, joy, happiness or do you just fellow the crowd because everyone in your surroundings does?

At this point in my life with no job, no money at the bank, a kitchen full of noodles and everything else looking sort of i have finally hit the end zone, i figured maybe i should look towards God for guidance :D

I recently got myself into bible studies with a Jehova Witness`s guy, dont ask me why.....
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
If you want to study the Bible, there are many establishments to assist you, but the Watchtower/JWs is not the one you want.
 
Hitokage said:
If you want to study the Bible, there are many establishments to assist you, but the Watchtower/JWs is not the one you want.


True, lately i`ve been feeling like the dude is trying to push stuff down my throat, and i have Watchtower all over the place even though i never read them.

Where do you recommend i should look? Maybe a catholic church? I know theres one nearby
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
While my faith is pretty important to me, I haven't been a big church fan since I was old enough to have a say in not going. I gave it a few honest tries, but realized when I was there, I was just bored for the most part and I wasn't going to kid or guilt-trip myself into staying. I think there's other ways to practice one's faith, but that's certainly not saying church is a bad thing. Depending on the church, it can be a great place to meet people that are just plain expecting more out of life or have similar beliefs. Awhile back, I hit a pretty rough spot in my life and started talking to a Mormon buddy about issues of church, God, you name it, and while I certainly don't agree with all the aspects of their religion, I met alot of good people in the process that went completely out of their way to help me during a pretty depressing time. Churches can provide a similar experience for some.
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
EarthStormFire said:
Please don't be brain washed by the xtians and the big book of lies aka the bible.

Did Jesus fondle you in some no-no spots when you were a kid or something? You seem to have some disconcerting angst.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
norinrad21 said:
True, lately i`ve been feeling like the dude is trying to push stuff down my throat, and i have Watchtower all over the place even though i never read them.

Where do you recommend i should look? Maybe a catholic church? I know theres one nearby
I dunno, try out various protestant sects and see which one you're more comfortable with.
 

Triumph

Banned
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-3964900-9496729?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Buy this. It's a remarkably well translated, easy to read Bible. I even have one(yes me, the world's biggest Sinner and Asshole). Then I recommend that you read it and develop your own opinions and thoughts, and maybe even your own set of beliefs out of your reading. I think any sort of relationship someone has with a higher being shouldn't be run through a 3rd Party, no matter how well established or how much they think they know. Make it personal and develop your own ideas and beliefs. That's my advice.
 

Alcibiades

Member
Dude, I'm not very religious and don't go to chuch often (though I'm a Roman Catholic), but I did kinda look for guidance with a Bible study (non-denominational) a few years ago.

It was ok, but I guess I prefer discussion to prayer and song.

For some reason, I'm really cool with the study and talk, but prayer is really uncomfortable for me for some reason.

The Catholic Church is pretty cool because they really adapt to individual communities wherever they are located.

The Priest scandal is just hell, but they are a tiny minority, and I"m glad major Catholics like Bill O'Reilly and others are making points about how Bishops who allowed this should be forced to step down for the sake of not alienating American Catholics.

this website's videos are really intriguing: http://christiananswers.net/hope/thehope-intro.html

I definitely haven't come to any 100% conclusions myself about Jesus, God, the Bible, their existence, their influence, etc. I'm totally undecisive when it comes to nailing down if I believe something or not, and I probably change my mind often. Still, I'm pretty inquisitive when talking with Evangelicals (like some guy trying to convince me that the Earth isn't all that old, as in hundreds of thousands years-old), but overall the concepts, ideas, and beliefs are very fascinating to me.

I surely adopt that we should love, help, give, etc...

That, and I think that somehow I feel that we do have souls, not just bodies of cells/matter, though that's more of life experiences bringing me to that belief than anything specifically from the Bible or Church.

I would highly recommend going to belief.net and checking out the various articles and info they have there.

I definitely don't subscribe to just finding a religion that will suit your idea on social issues (finding some pro-choice church for example). I mean, anybody could just start any Church that's not the point. But, I definitely see reform/changes for already established denominations and Church's as a must going into the future.
 

El Papa

Member
Man, this is the last place you need to be looking for spiritual advice with all of the God-haters, athiests/agnostics. Do yourself a favor and stay away from Mormonism and JWs, for reasons I'm not going to go into at the moment.

The act of going to church itself means nothing. Millions of people go to church every Sunday, even multiple times a week, with empty hearts and empty souls, and they leave the same way. What counts when you go to church is what is in your heart. If you go with your heart open, you will leave a changed person. That scares alot of people, because they like who they are and want to keep doing the things they are doing. I know this to be true because I have been guilty of it. But I have seen close friends, people that were completely against God and Christianity, that hated the very idea, totally change, and they would tell you for the better. My best advice to you would be read the bible, I suggest the New American Standard (NASB) or the New International Version (NIV), and make up your own mind. Pray about it. Talk to God. Ask him to guide you. I'm not going to tell you what you should believe, though I know what I believe to be the truth.

The fact that you're actually putting this up as a topic in OT shows you've got some guts, I sighed in anticipation of the ridicule this thread was going to get when I first saw the title. Maybe you're really serious about it. One thing is certain though, you have to be willing to change your thought process. If you think about it though, is what you're doing right now on your own getting you anywhere?
 

Alcibiades

Member
btw, I'm pretty such Catholic Priests would be willing to answer questions or anything (since you said there is a church nearby), and what I really like about the Catholic establishment is that from I can tell, they are the least less pushy.

I know Priests can get along with other sects, doubters, etc...

They really don't mind talking to anybody, and I know they stress the brotherhood of "Christianity" and the brotherhood of "the human family" and aren't just ultra-converters (unlike in past centuries).

I haven't really had overly-pressure about going to church or things of that type from more devout Catholic/friends. They do mention it and ask if I'm going, but not to the extent where I feel uncomfortable.

I think the line for me is like this:

"hey man, if you're still interested, there's still this on so-so night" or "hey man, we're doing this-and-this on so-so day just so you know"

that's acceptable and if I don't show up there isn't excessive questioning.

to me, the uncomfortable part statements like this:

"we'll be holding so-and-so, you can learn a lot from the truth"
 

Che

Banned
norinrad21 said:
Does it bring you a sense of peace, joy, happiness or do you just fellow the crowd because everyone in your surroundings does?

No but it brings them a sense of dellusion that God will protect them plus they're so afraid to die that they also need religion to tell them that they'll live forever. On the other hand I'm much stronger not dellusional so I don't believe is religions. Btw out of all religions you chose christianity? Christianity and Islam are the most full of hate religions, find something cooler please(that -for example- does not imply that our enemies will burn in the eternal flames of hell, or that God will destroy them, their forests, their animals, etc. etc. etc.).
 

Saturnman

Banned
Hitokage said:
I dunno, try out various protestant sects and see which one you're more comfortable with.

If he seeks God for the first time, he should go for a Christian denomination that isn't too demanding instead of one of more austere Christian sects out there. Nor's options may be limited by the fact he lives in Holland and not the Christian fertile ground known as America.

I would either go Catholic or for one of the major Protestant denominations like Dutch Lutheran Church or the Reformed Church of the Netherlands if I were in his place.
 
tedtropy said:
Did Jesus fondle you in some no-no spots when you were a kid or something? You seem to have some disconcerting angst.

Not everyone is brain washed from birth to worship something that does not exsist. Science can explain everything with evidence, the Bible explains nothing and just makes you believe based on faith. Sadly, that faith is a bunch of old men who needed some control system, and it's worked. People are easily led on, hence Bush still being pretty popular.

I can understand why some people need religion as a safety net, but religion is a dangerous thing. People kill for it, they will die for it. Religion is the reason 9/11 happened. There will never be world peace because of religion, sadly.

Religion is a pretty selfish concept. It turns people ugly.
 

WordofGod

Banned
http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1998/prayer-USAToday.html

Has science proven the "divine" health benefits of religion?
By Gary P. Posner, M.D.

August 23, 1998

The first sentence of the July 25, 1998, USA Today article reads, "Maybe doctors should write 'Go to church weekly' on their prescription pads." If they were all to do so in lieu of prescribing standard medical therapy, we need only look at the morbidity/mortality statistics for Christian Scientists, as compared to the general population, to predict the untoward consequences.

Maybe publications should be more forthright with their readers as to the sources of the information they are dishing out. Something seemed vaguely familiar about the article's opening line, its cast of characters and their claims, and the "212 studies" cited by one of them. A review of my files soon revealed the truth: USA Today had simply republished verbatim an old Associated Press story from February 1996!

The recycled article (which has since been rearchived by USA Today and properly dated), entitled "Religious beliefs linked with good health," speaks of the growing body of evidence confirming that "religion can be good medicine." Up front and center is Dr. Dale Matthews of Georgetown University who, along with several others, had "recently" (in 1996, that is) presented his case at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Matthews was said to have reviewed 212 studies regarding religion and health, with three-fourths showing a positive effect. Just as parapsychologists fill their journals with "positive" studies of psychic power, researchers who set out to "scientifically" validate their religious beliefs usually manage to do so -- at least to their own satisfaction, if not to that of the scientific community at large.

And a large proportion of those "212 studies" were apparently carried out by parapsychologists. In "Appendix 1" of his 1993 bestseller Healing Words, Dr. Larry Dossey, perhaps the premier proponent of "The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine" (the book's subtitle), speaks of the "131 controlled trials" on "spiritual healing" previously surveyed by Dr. Daniel J. Benor and published in the journal Complementary Medical Research in 1990 as well as in Benor's then-upcoming 1993 book, Healing Research. According to Dossey, "Ten [of these 131 studies] are unpublished doctoral dissertations, two are masters' theses, and the rest are published primarily in parapsychology journals. These publications have peer review standards as rigorous as many medical journals."[1]

In the USA Today article, after pressing for physicians to encourage their patients' religious activities, Matthews emphasizes that "I'm not saying that physicians should supplant clergy or that prayer should supplant Prozac." What he reportedly has said more recently is that there may soon be no rational basis for physicians to prescribe anything other than religious activity and Prozac. Matthews has been quoted as having told the following in late 1997 to "a slightly bewildered crowd" of future doctors at St. Louis University School of Medicine: "The medicine of the future is going to be prayer and Prozac. If we can prove the medical benefits of intercessory prayer [prayer by strangers, at a distance, without the knowledge of the recipients], it's going to be page 1 news. You're going to see a revolution. The world of medicine will be turned upside down."[2]

USA Today then quotes Duke University Medical Center's Dr. Harold Koenig as offering that "people who attend church are both physically healthier and less depressed." (Q: As compared with whom?) He acknowledges that those who shun church in favor of praying alone at home, with or without TV evangelists, suffer worse health than others. (Again, exactly who are the others?) Dr. Thomas Oxman of Dartmouth Medical School had earlier shown that people who participate in organized secular group activities such as a historical society, local government or senior-citizen center appear to accrue life-protective health benefits following cardiac surgery.[3] Taking all this into account, it appears that the social aspects of religion, rather than a deity, may be largely responsible for its beneficial effects on health. [This explanation has been reinforced by more recent research, as reported on Aug. 17, 1998, in USA Today's article, "Prayer can lower blood pressure." Quoting David B. Larson, co-author of a relevant study in the 8/18 issue of the International Journal of Psychiatry in Medicine, "There is something to the social part [of religion] that is very important, and you don't get that sitting on your couch. . . . If they relied on TV or radio, it wasn't as beneficial."]

The divine nature of the health benefits is raised next, as the article resurrects Dr. Randolph Byrd's CCU study of intercessary prayer, carried out in 1982-83 at San Francisco General Hospital and published in the July 1988 Southern Medical Journal. This decade-old study is still considered the cream of the crop, which helps explain the scientific community's indifference to the entire genre. In the Preface to Healing Words, Dr. Larry Dossey hailed the Byrd paper as the seminal "scientific study that strongly supported the power of [intercessary] prayer in getting well." But on page 185 of the same book, Dossey cites my critical assessment of the Byrd study.[4] And later on the same page, he acknowledges that the study had actually "missed the mark. . . . tatistically significant life-or-death effects . . . simply did not occur."

Dr. Jeffrey Levin, the next to be quoted in the USA Today article, makes the most sense, as he offers the placebo effect, and the more-healthful-than-average lifestyles of religious people (e.g., less smoking and alcohol), to help explain religion's health benefits.

Harvard cardiologist Dr. Herbert Benson then notes that faith's stress-reducing effects can help alleviate such conditions as high blood pressure, anxiety and "infertility." Sure, saying a prayer, or taking a deep breath, can be relaxing. But with regard to infertility, Benson stands accused of grossly exaggerating his own published findings. A book review of Benson's Timeless Healing reports that the original research article[5] actually contains "no evidence that the relaxation response improved the conception rate, as the authors are careful to point out there; there were no matched controls, they note, to show what the conception rate would have been without the relaxation response."[6]

Concluding the USA Today article, clinical psychologist Kenneth Pargament of Bowling Green State University urges physicians to take religion more seriously. We already take it seriously. But as far as replacing modern medicine with "prayer and Prozac" is concerned, I'm afraid that we will have to wait until one or more of the next "212 studies" accomplishes what the first 212 have not -- providing compelling and reproducible (by non-believers) evidence that the beneficial health effects of religion are due to something more extraordinary than socialization, relaxation and placebo.

References:

[1] Larry Dossey, Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine, HarperSanFrancisco, 1993

[2] Hampton Sides, "Prescription: Prayer," St. Petersburg Times, December 29, 1997 (reprinted from the New York Times Magazine)

[3] Bruce Jancin, "Death Risk After Heart Surgery Rises For Patients With No Religious Beliefs," Internal Medicine News & Cardiology News, July 15, 1993

[4] Gary P. Posner, "God in the CCU?" Free Inquiry, Spring 1990

[5] A. Domar, H. Benson et al., "Psychological improvement in infertile women after behavioral treatment: a replication," Fertility and Sterility, 58:144-147, July 1992

[6] I. Tessman and J. Tessman, "Mind and Body" (book review of H. Benson's Timeless Healing: The Power and Biology of Belief, New York, NY, Scribner, 1996), Science, 276:369-370, April 18, 1997
 

fart

Savant
i don't care what unverifiable shit you believe in, just shut up about it, seriously. let other people do their own thing in peace and you'll get yours.

to the poster: engaging in organized religion will not magically put food on the table. what it may do is affect you psychologically in such a way that you can put food on the table. however, realize that you are the one making the necessary changes, and hopefully realize that you don't need any indoctrinating belief system to make these changes.

and yes, organized religion can be insidious if, say, it limits the traditional social support system to those who subscribe to its canon of beliefs. it's not that everyone outside the christian faith "hates god" but they maybe have a different appreciation of independent thought than you (the hypothetical you) do.
 

Seth C

Member
norinrad21 said:
True, lately i`ve been feeling like the dude is trying to push stuff down my throat, and i have Watchtower all over the place even though i never read them.

Where do you recommend i should look? Maybe a catholic church? I know theres one nearby

The Bible isn't all that complicated. Read it, see what you think. Get a feel for it. Figure out what it means to you, without having others interpret and mix the message FOR you. Then seek out other people of like mind.
 
WordofGod said:
References:

[1] Larry Dossey, Healing Words: The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine, HarperSanFrancisco, 1993

[2] Hampton Sides, "Prescription: Prayer," St. Petersburg Times, December 29, 1997 (reprinted from the New York Times Magazine)

[3] Bruce Jancin, "Death Risk After Heart Surgery Rises For Patients With No Religious Beliefs," Internal Medicine News & Cardiology News, July 15, 1993

[4] Gary P. Posner, "God in the CCU?" Free Inquiry, Spring 1990

[5] A. Domar, H. Benson et al., "Psychological improvement in infertile women after behavioral treatment: a replication," Fertility and Sterility, 58:144-147, July 1992

[6] I. Tessman and J. Tessman, "Mind and Body" (book review of H. Benson's Timeless Healing: The Power and Biology of Belief, New York, NY, Scribner, 1996), Science, 276:369-370, April 18, 1997

How about some sources that haven't written a book on reiligon and medicine? Biased outlook, epecially "Death Risk After Heart Surgery Rises For Patients With No Religious Beliefs".

LOL

Might as well just right a book saying you'll die if you have no religious beliefs. Oh, right, most religious people say something to that effect all the time, using a similar fear tactic abut hell.

:p
 

DDayton

(more a nerd than a geek)
I'd recommend a Catholic church, but I'm biased... so, perhaps I could recommend taking a look at the Bible itself and the writings of Aquinas? If you like logic and consistancy, Aquinas is a good fellow to take a look at. Even if you disagree with everything he says, at least he lays out what he says in a logical and easy to follow fashion.

Should you have any trouble finding something, send a PM my way... LEST YE BURN FOR-- wait... stop... ignore that last comment.
 

fart

Savant
what's curious to me is that norinrad never said like "i need something to believe in" but asked specifically about church. church is not a set of beliefs. it's a place of social gathering.

as such, i would not recommend reading the bible or any sutras or the koran or what have you. i would recommend attending a whole bunch of churches, temples, whatever, and if you think the atmosphere will allow you to change in such a way as to do the things you seem to know you need to do to make your life better, then maybe stick with it. otherwise you could try to temper yourself without organized religion.
 

WordofGod

Banned
kitchenmotors said:
How about some sources that haven't written a book on reiligon and medicine? Biased outlook, epecially "Death Risk After Heart Surgery Rises For Patients With No Religious Beliefs".

LOL

Might as well just right a book saying you'll die if you have no religious beliefs. Oh, right, most religious people say something to that effect all the time, using a similar fear tactic abut hell.

:p

You did read that article right? That article is based off of a USA Today article which said that there is scientific proof that prayer and going to church has medical benefits.
 
norinrad21 said:
I would like to know what going to church every sunday has done to your life?

Does it bring you a sense of peace, joy, happiness or do you just fellow the crowd because everyone in your surroundings does?

At this point in my life with no job, no money at the bank, a kitchen full of noodles and everything else looking sort of i have finally hit the end zone, i figured maybe i should look towards God for guidance :D

I recently got myself into bible studies with a Jehova Witness`s guy, dont ask me why.....


You could try Christianity, but I'd suggest you be wary of listening to other preaching it to you, and that includes going to church. In fact, if you do choose christianity, just stick to reading the bible, because most real Christians are a bunch of fucking wackos.

Or you could try any one of the other many religions - once again be wary of what others say, and don't be fooled into accepting only one brand of the religion they're preaching. Interpret it yourself, personally.
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
norinrad21 said:
I have and read countless books about it, i some how can't seem to be able to grasp the concept.

Buddhism is more about setting your life path straight. When you pray, you're praying towards your spirit to re-align itself onto the correct path on which your mindset wants it on. Although there are tons of variants on Buddhism itself, the main belief structure is to remain in a harmony lifestyle, trying to achieve the most happiness you can from what you have received.

It doesn't specifically dictate that karma has to rule over your entire thinking, but it does have a huge effect on your daily life. I guess it's similiar to the ol' Good Samaritan story in The Bible. Personally I enjoy Buddhism as when you pray, you're not essentially praying to a higher being or anything.. but to yourself. It's a great stress relief while chanting the same words over and over again :) May sound silly but it does work - plus I got some nifty beads with it all!
 

FoneBone

Member
WordofGod said:
You did read that article right? That article is based off of a USA Today article which said that there is scientific proof that prayer and going to church has medical benefits.
That article makes pretty clear that the benefits are primarily a placebo effect.
 

COCKLES

being watched
Watchtower is scary.

The naff covers with peoples of all creeds eating picnics out in the bavarien mountains version of heaven. I don't see any Arcades or Xboxes anywhere...
 

Boomer

Member
I find it hilarious that a post that may be the least bit offensive to gays results in a ban, but posts that are highly offensive to christians are allowed. Some of these posts are ridiculous.
 

FoneBone

Member
Boomer said:
I find it hilarious that a post that may be the least bit offensive to gays results in a ban, but posts that are highly offensive to christians are allowed. Some of these posts are ridiculous.
Bullshit.
 
Boomer said:
I find it hilarious that a post that may be the least bit offensive to gays results in a ban, but posts that are highly offensive to christians are allowed. Some of these posts are ridiculous.

That’s nonsense. Xtians think anything that doesn't agree with their big book of lies is offensive.
 

Boomer

Member
EarthStormFire said:
That’s nonsense. Xtians think anything that doesn't agree with their big book of lies is offensive.

Wrong, it is offensive when we are constantly downgraded for what we believe.

I don't think so. Give me an example of a "mildly offensive" post about gays that resulted in a ban.

Are you new to this board?
 

XS+

Banned
Wrong, it is offensive when we are constantly downgraded for what we believe.
I agree. There's no hope in presenting a civil defense against the slandrous remarks in this thread (or forum for that matter).
 

Gregory

Banned
Just sell your Gamecube and shitty Gamecube games and you can put food on the table. Atleast for some weeks.
Stay the hell away from any religion.

Why are you so broke anyway? What about social security/ unemployment money? You`re dutch aren`t you?
 

FoneBone

Member
I can't deny that there is a double standard on the part of the mods, but I think that your definition of "mildly homophobic" is rather loose.

Also, regarding the above post, does this thread really need console-related trolling in it? I mean, this is the OT forum.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Boomer said:
Wrong, it is offensive when we are constantly downgraded for what we believe.
I have Christians do that to me for my beliefs all the time. Mormon missionaries regularly come up to me on my college campus and say that I'm going to hell unless I show up to their church the follow sunday. I even have a few good friends who will become personally offended if my athiesm is even raised in a conversation.

It goes both ways.
 

way more

Member
dianetics-auditor-course.jpg


All the guidance with none of the religion
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
mac said:
dianetics-auditor-course.jpg


All the guidance with none of the religion
Just looked up the book and it sounds interesting.....is it really worth reading?
 

Dilbert

Member
Boomer said:
I find it hilarious that a post that may be the least bit offensive to gays results in a ban, but posts that are highly offensive to christians are allowed. Some of these posts are ridiculous.
Strictly speaking, there is nothing in the TOS about disrespecting someone's religion, so it's apples and oranges. When someone offers up some deep commentary about "Christians are gay!" give me a call. Also, as Dan pointed out, we non-Christians get as much shit from believers about the cancer spreading across our soul, so it goes both ways. Live with it.

With that being said -- EarthStormFire needs to chill out, or face the consequences. We get it already -- you don't like the Bible, and that's your business. You're still trolling, so knock it off.

As far as the original poster is concerned, I don't understand the question, quite frankly. Going to church is not the same thing as belief, and I don't know how someone solicits a new belief. Let's say that I wanted to hook up with a hot chick who was REALLY into astrology. No matter how much I might be able to read up on the star signs and talk a good game for the purpose of trying to get in her pants, I'm still not going to BELIEVE in that crap unless some evidence arises which changes my mind. There are a lot of points of view that I can rationally understand, but cannot agree with.

If you don't have money or a job, you ought to be looking for work and reading over your resumé...not trying to find Jesus. Religion is NOT a form of cosmic lottery where true believers magically get rewarded with cash or status for their weekly attendance at church. The whole point of religion is to put the chaos of life into a moral and teleogical framework -- whether you think that it's actually a true insight into the true nature of existence or a mental/emotional crutch is your decision to make.
 
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