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Grimlock · Feb 10, 2007

Borrowed this post format from dcresource.com's forum. I'd like to get as many good opinions as possible. For reference, here are a review of the Canon S3 and the Pentax K100d.

Budget

* What budget have you allocated for buying this camera? Please be as specific as possible.-I should be able to wing about $600 for initial purchase. I do want to get a good portrait lens in addition to the kit lens, but I know I will most likely have to purchase that later. I do have to decide fairly soon, as the return time for my S3 expires in less than 2 weeks. (was 90 days from Target)

Size

* What size camera are you looking for? Or does size not matter at all to you?-Not a real concern. I'm currently running around with a Canon SLR bag to hold my stuff, but I usually carry my current camera in a smaller bag that fits neatly into the main bag. Most of the time, I carry the camera in the smaller bag inside of this duffel-type luggage bag that I carry around everywhere I go.

Features

How many megapixels will suffice for you?-6 should be more than sufficient. My main concerns are image quality, specifically noise levels in lower light conditions, primarily indoors.

* What optical zoom will you need? (None, Standard = 3x-4x, Ultrazoom = 10x-12x, Other - Specify)-While the ultrazoom on the S3 has been nice, I think I'd be happy with something that provides a 4-6X zoom for the time being. I did notice in my few minutes with the Pentax that it autofocused quicker in low-light than my S3, even without using the flash. I also found the single autofocus point of the S3 to be something of a drawback (my camera before the S3 would autofocus on multiple points), so I'd imagine I'd be quite pleased with the Pentax's 11 autofocus points.

* How important is image quality to you? (Rate using a scale of 1-10)-9. The main reason I'm considering sending my S3 back has been the amount of noise in the higher iso's with indoor shots. The iso 200 setting for the S3 is just within my tolerance. I took a few test shots in low-light using a K100d in a dimly-lit Wolf Camera using the kit lens in Program mode and I think that the noise at iso800 for the Pentax was a little better than the S3's iso200, and that the Pentax's iso1600 was better looking than shots I took using the S3's iso400 in better light.

Do you care for manual controls?-Sure, but I'm still a spaz when it comes to full manual. I usually leave my camera in Program or Aperture mode

General Usage

* What will you generally use the camera for?-I'm primarily interested in portrait shots of attractive women . A lot of my pictures have been snapshot-style portraits (with some posing) under florescent light (which I have grown to despise), but I've been taking pictures of all sorts of stuff that catches my eye-a pretty sky, an interesting tree, some landscaping, etc. Last month I took about 200 pictures at a coworker's baby shower for her, and last week, I took over 900 shots of animals at the local zoo. I think I'm becoming a general photoenthusiast.

* Will you be making big prints of your photos or not?-I generally won't do anything larger than an 8X10. I do more than a few 4X6.

Will you be shooting a lot of indoor photos or low light photos?-A lot of indoor shots under florescent lighting. I try to shoot in daylight whenever I can. While I do have a monopod and a nice Vivitar tripod, I don't usually carry them with me unless I have something planned. A lot of my shots are handheld, spur-of-the-moment deals where I can't do a lot of prep time, or in situations where I couldn't really use a support. I try to compensate by using a flash bracket that allows me to use something of a two-fisted hold. I can't really use an SLR-hold on the S3 due to the placement of the autofocus lamp. Plus, I have somewhat shaky hands due to tendonitis.

Will you be shooting sports and/or action photos?-No, although I wouldn't mind having that option.

Miscellaneous

Are there particular brands you like or hate?-No. I'm more concerned with capability and price.

Are there particular models you already have in mind?-Well, I pondered the Canon Rebel & Xti, along with the Nikon D40, but I need IS and the only way with those cameras is through expensive lenses. The Sony Alpha is out of my price range, and it's iso performance from the reviews I've seen has been unimpressive. I found a local store that has the Konika-Minolta Maxxum 5D for less than the current average online price for the Pentax I'm considering, but it uses CF cards and a specialized battery. I already have 9 1/2 gig in SD cards and 2 sets of rechargable AA batteries. I'm not sure about the quality of the various SD-to-CF adaptors that I could find, and I didn't want to spend even more money for a spare battery. I briefly considered the Olympus E-500 with the dual lenses, but expensive+CF+li battery=nope.

(If applicable) Do you need any of the following special features? (Wide Angle, Image Stabilization, Weatherproof, Hotshoe, Rotating LCD)-IS is pretty much mandatory for me-it was the reason I got the S3 in the first place. Wide angle would be nice for group shots, but I think I'd have to live with the kit lens for the moment. I have a Phoenix slave flash with a hotshoe mount (one pin in the middle), so I can use that until I can pony up the cash for a better external flash. Weatherproofing would be nice, but I don't take the camera outside when there's a decent chance of rain. I did find the rotating LCD of the S3 to be useful at times, but I'm ready to sacrifice that capability. What I'd probably miss most would be the S3's movie mode-the thing does make a smashing camcorder in a pinch, but I've only really used it when getting a decent still shot meant using iso800, which I find to be waaaay too noisy, even at 4X6 prints.

Thanks in advance to anyone who reads all this and gives advice.

Grimlock · Feb 10, 2007

*bump* for the morning crew.

mrkgoo · Feb 10, 2007

Keeping in mind a few things:

I might be biased since I have a Canon 350D (XT), but why not chump for the Xt(i)? Is IS really THAT important? I mean, if you mostly intend on shooting portraits, IS doesn't really help, because in low shutterspeed situations, IS does not help if your SUBJECT moves.

Noise is a reason I chose canon. The canon dSLRs are famous for their low noise sensors, and the noise level up to iso400 is awesome...even 800 is fairly useable, and 1600 alright depending on how picky you get. Remember that as the larger teh sensor size you go, the larger eh pixel size, and consequently less noise - any even cropped sensor dSLR will beatout point and shoot style/prosumer style cameras for noise.

The cheapest canon lens is the EF 50mm 1.8, which is about US$75, I understand. Though cheap, it is one of the sharpest lenses, and takes pictures with amazing image quality. With a fast 1.8 aperture, and and equivalent field of view of 80mm on an XT, it is really suited to protraiture shots, even in indoor and low light (less so for group indoor shots), but it sounds to cover your needs for portrait/indoor.

Again, I might be biased, but why settle compromises? a dSLR really allows you to move forward, and expand your equipment as YOU expand. Canon is a leader in this field. Keep in mind andy dSLR you buy, you are buying the system of lenses more than the camera... and yes, Canon lenses are expensive.

On a side note, Canon have stated that their IS technology will most likely stay on the lenses, probably because they make a killing on them, but also they say it's much more efficient/powerful to make them specifically for the lenses, rather than the sensor. Their latest tech on the 70-200mm f4L Is allows equivalent of 4-stops shutter -so on a full frame cam at maximum zoom, an average person could hold it steady for shutter speeds of 1/200s. with the IS on, this allows hand holding at 200mm down to 1/13s. This is awesome (and the everyone loves teh canon IS system).

In the end, these are only my opinions, but at the very least, if you are serious enough, I would suggest a dSLR over any P&S - the control and image quality is a lot of fun. Beyond that, the dSLR system you wish to choose will probably just depend on budget and range. I would say don't ;et things like battery type/memory type sway you too much...those little comforts aren't what makes your images good. (camera shape and size are important though).

SickBoy · Feb 10, 2007

I've got a Pentax *ist DL and if I could have waited, I would have bought the K100 (and now maybe the K10 -- I've got a speck of dust on my sensor that's been a bitch.. and still there)

Like the DL before it, the K100 is a fantastic price for what it offers, but it pushes the envelope even further.

Canon or Nikon are really the preferred brands these days, but this is a very capable performer (and I've read it produces far better JPEGs than previous Pentax cameras). In camera IS isn't as effective as on-the-lens, but it'll save you hundreds of dollars.

The biggest issue may be lens availability, but there's a good variety available online, and if you don't mind working with manual-focus lenses, you'll have instant access to a gigantic selection of glass from Pentax past (the main reason I bought the DL over something like the Digital Rebel)

Draff · Feb 10, 2007

Well, the noise problem will pretty much affect any non-SLR at higher ISO's... Did you try to take the pictures in low light with IS but at lower ISO's? Were they still blurry?

As far as zoom, the stock lens will only be "3x", so it'll be a pretty big downgrade in that respect. However, if you do decide to go for a higher megapixel camera, you can always compensate by cropping.

Dice · Feb 10, 2007

Grimlock said:
Budget
* What budget have you allocated for buying this camera? Please be as specific as possible.-I should be able to wing about $600 for initial purchase. I do want to get a good portrait lens in addition to the kit lens, but I know I will most likely have to purchase that later. I do have to decide fairly soon, as the return time for my S3 expires in less than 2 weeks. (was 90 days from Target)

Yeah, you'll probably have to get a portrait lens later.

* What optical zoom will you need? (None, Standard = 3x-4x, Ultrazoom = 10x-12x, Other - Specify)-While the ultrazoom on the S3 has been nice, I think I'd be happy with something that provides a 4-6X zoom for the time being. I did notice in my few minutes with the Pentax that it autofocused quicker in low-light than my S3, even without using the flash. I also found the single autofocus point of the S3 to be something of a drawback (my camera before the S3 would autofocus on multiple points), so I'd imagine I'd be quite pleased with the Pentax's 11 autofocus points.

Yes, since you say you do stuff in the moment you'll find thsi is a great advantage with dSLRs. And zoom shouldn't be needed as often if you are indoors and low-light.

* How important is image quality to you? (Rate using a scale of 1-10)-9. The main reason I'm considering sending my S3 back has been the amount of noise in the higher iso's with indoor shots. The iso 200 setting for the S3 is just within my tolerance. I took a few test shots in low-light using a K100d in a dimly-lit Wolf Camera using the kit lens in Program mode and I think that the noise at iso800 for the Pentax was a little better than the S3's iso200, and that the Pentax's iso1600 was better looking than shots I took using the S3's iso400 in better light.

Again, this is a massive benefit from a dSLR. Since you are very interested in low light shooting, I fully support your decision to go SLR.

Pentax has long been friendly to those entering the world of photography, particularly SLR shooting. For your style and with your desire of a portrait lenses Pentax does have some nice ones. I think they are underestimated because Canon and Nikon are so veratile, can often handle "extreme" situations, and a lot of people want to be prepared. But if you know your focus, Pentax should do fine. You don't seem like you intend to go pro, and if you did that'll take a large investment anyway, so I'd say Pentax is a safe move.

It's in my personality to not have a lot of things, but a few things that are very nice and last a looong time, so I'm more apt to save a lot of cash and get a Nikon D300 whenever it comes out with a nice 50mm f/1.4 lens. Of course, I also see full frame digitals becoming more standard soon, so I may even just upgrade my PnS to a Fuji F30 and hold out for that. But as for you, I can understand where you are coming from and your understanding of your own needs makes sense. So I say yeah, go for the Pentax.

dasein · Feb 10, 2007

get a Sony DSC H2. problem solved.

Grimlock · Feb 10, 2007

Thanks for the responses so far. Some refinement on my concerns:

IS is HUGE for me. It, noise levels, image quality, and my budget are my main concerns. My hand jitter makes IS mandatory. My budget right now is pretty tight-I'd have to return the S3 to even think about getting another camera. The only reason I'm pondering SLR (besides the significant image quality improvement) is that I have $260 in mail-in rebates either in hand or on the way back to me.

While I think that the Canon Xti has better noise at iso800, the Pentax looks like it preserves details better at iso1600. Plus, I'd have to buy new memory cards & a battery pack (I keep a backup set of batteries at all times), and the Canon body alone is more expensive than the Pentax with a kit lens. The lens prices I've seen for Pentax are making me wince; I nearly fell out of my chair when I started pricing Canon ones that didn''t have IS.

I also considered the Nikon D40, which is about the same price, uses SD cards, and has better iso1600 performance, but the lack of IS, no autofocus motor, and lens pricing are dealbreakers on that one.

I noted that the Olympus e-500 with 2 lenses was just getting into my price range, but I didn't think its noise performance and picture sharpness was great from the reviews I've seen. Plus, no IS and it uses CF.

While I do have an external slave bounce flash, I prefer to work with the light already in the area. Increasing the iso on the S3 to compensate just brings a lot of noise into the shot at 400 and 800. Just to illustrate the noise issue I have, here's a full-sized crop of an iso800 shot from the S3 from a room under a decent amount of florescent light (f2.7 1/60sec at wide angle):

Now, while that is an action shot, the blur didn't bother me at all-it made the shot dynamic. What ticked me off was all of the noise. The freeware version of Neatimage couldn't cope with the noise, and it blurred a lot of the detail that was in the shot. Now here's a full-sized crop of an iso1600 shot from when I tested out the Pentax at a Wolf Camera that had dim flood lighting (f 6.7 at 1/125sec at 43mm zoom with kit lens, and the light in the Wolf Camera was that yellow):

Now while there is obvious noise in this shot, it's nowhere near as bad, IMO, as the iso 800 shot from the S3. And Neatimage was more than capable of dealing with the noise at weaker settings than I attempted with the S3 shot.

Grimlock · Feb 10, 2007

dasein said:
get a Sony DSC H2. problem solved.

The H2 shows notable desaturation at higher iso settings, and it uses mem sticks. Plus, I don't think there's a point-and-shoot camera that's going to make me happy at this rate.

dasein · Feb 10, 2007

Grimlock said:
The H2 shows notable desaturation at higher iso settings, and it uses mem sticks. Plus, I don't think there's a point-and-shoot camera that's going to make me happy at this rate.

Which ISOs? The ones you're never going to use?

Grimlock · Feb 11, 2007

dasein said:
Which ISOs? The ones you're never going to use?

Actually, I would like to shoot at higher iso's, as I prefer to capture the ambient light in the shot. Shooting good shots at lower iso's would either require the flash, which would destroy the ambient light, or lug around my tripod, which isn't always possible.

And, for the record, I did try out the H2-it belonged to my friend in the 2nd shot. It's an adequate P&S, but it, like my S3, just isn't capable of doing what I want to do.

emomoonbase · Feb 11, 2007

Shit, if your spending that much you may as well get a Rebel XTi and take advantage of Canon's ginormous selection of lenses.

Grimlock · Feb 11, 2007

emomoonbase said:
Shit, if your spending that much you may as well get a Rebel XTi and take advantage of Canon's ginormous selection of lenses.

Allow me to clairfy that the XTi and the Canon lenses are out of my price range. Plus, I'd have to buy different CF cards and battery, which would only add to the monetary sorrow.

On to a related subject, if anyone with the necessary experience can please respond. I'm thinking I might be able to get an adequate K100d setup a little cheaper by going with the K100 body and the following Sigma lenses:

Sigma 18-50mm F3.5-5.6 DC

Sigma 55-200mm F4-5.6 DC

I've already tried to google reviews, but I can't find anything professionally done so far, just user reviews. The 18-50 seems to be a mixed bag, but appears to have reviewed a bit better recently than when it first came out in 2003. The 55-200 user reviews I've found seem to show it to be a good value for the money. My pricesearching so far indicates that I might secure both lenses for about $200 total, give or take. My intent is to do general photography with an emphasis on indoor portraiture in ambient light, typically florescent and maybe some telephoto (landscapes) stuff. Can anyone advise me about them?

Dice · Feb 11, 2007

If you're gonna do that get a Pentax smcP-FA 50mm f/1.4. It'll really help get the low-light results you're looking for, the fixed focal length will make you a better photographer, and it can be found for $200 so you can get a more versatile lens on the side.

Grimlock · Feb 11, 2007

Dice said:
If you're gonna do that get a Pentax smcP-FA 50mm f/1.4. It'll really help get the low-light results you're looking for, the fixed focal length will make you a better photographer, and it can be found for $200 so you can get a more versatile lens on the side.

Yeah, I had been (and still am) thinking about that, but I forgot to mention in my post before you responded that I'd still like some zoom capability. Sorry about that-I just edited my post. I do want to get that type of lens (I'd guess that's one of those "prime lenses" I've heard of), but considering the price it's definitely something I'd have to save up for. I thought about going ahead and return the S3 and go sans camera for a bit to build up a bit more cash, but it'd be uncomfortable. I've had a camera with me every day for almost a year trying to teach myself photography. While I still have access to the camera I had before I got the S3 (a Canon A620), it would be like going (to) McDonald's after eating at a Longhorn's or a TGIFriday's-the results I had with that box were so poor due to no IS that I almost threw the thing into a wall at one point. I don't think I could step back unless I really had no choice in the matter. Erg.

Grimlock · Feb 11, 2007

NVM about the Sigmas. I managed to find some more info and a couple of example shots that just scarred me away from them. I might be thifty, but I ain't gonna be happy with cheap crap. Looks like I'll save up for a solid zoom lens and then scrape up some more for that 50mm f.14 after I get the 100d kit-I've basically decided to go ahead. I'm just going to wait until just the end of the month (when I have to return the S3 by) to see if prices on the K100 drop a little further, like they've been doing as of late. Thanks for the good advice, guys.

SickBoy · Feb 11, 2007

If (and it's a big if), if you don't mind shooting manual, there is a massive amount of cheap glass available to you. You can get a 50mm lens for less than $50 (aperture of 1.7 or 2) on EBay... presumably less if you find it locally or on Craigslist. The old manual 1.4 is ~$150 because it's fairly sought after.

Grimlock · Feb 12, 2007

Thanks for the tip, Sickboy. It just occurred to me that I could check pawn shops for lenses on the cheap-IIRC, I have to check for fungus in the blades, scratches to the elements, and how smoothly the focus & zoom rings turn, along with any damage to the mount if I'm buying 2nd-hand, yes?

Phoenix · Feb 12, 2007

I'm actually planning to get the Xti myself in the next few weeks if I can find a good price.

emomoonbase · Feb 12, 2007

Grimlock said:
Thanks for the tip, Sickboy. It just occurred to me that I could check pawn shops for lenses on the cheap-IIRC, I have to check for fungus in the blades, scratches to the elements, and how smoothly the focus & zoom rings turn, along with any damage to the mount if I'm buying 2nd-hand, yes?

Used lenses are kind of a gamble. If I am buying a used lense it sure as heck isn't going to be from a pawn shop. I picked up a used Vivitar Macro lense for half the cost of retail that had hardly ever been used from a college classified ad. He had bought the lense for a class project and decided photography wasn't his thing and sold all his gear. I'd try to find a deal like that if going the used route.

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