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Board Games as Video Games: Why they suck, but are still good.

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
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As an avid fan of both, I'm generally quite happy when good board games make it to PCs/Consoles, but I think it also brings up some interesting issues.

Losing the aesthetic appeal of the board game. There is something to be said for the appearance and literal feel of a board game. It engages you in a way no controller can. This problem is compounded by the fact that most board games are translated very awkwardly to consoles, neither going with a pure "video game" or a pure "board game" look, and usually winding up somewhere in the middle with what looks like a cheap mish-mash of the two. A game like Eye of Judgment does its best to actually add aesthetic value in the conversion (e.g., animations), the counterpoints being (1) who watches the animations more than once anyway?; (2) there isn't much of a tactile element to card games regardless (contrast to games with intricate pieces, like Warhammer). Usually there is a net loss here, if just for the tactile loss.

The social element. Obviously online play is great for many, as it opens up a world of players. You can play your friend in Idaho or the best player in the world without traveling to some dorky convention. Power of the Information Supherhighway. But beyond this clear benefit, the social aspects in general are completely lost online. To use a terrible analogy, playing Catan online is about as similar to playing Catan with friends around a table as playing Rock Band is to playing in a real rock band. No one has a mic. You can't see anyone. Or you can see people but it's through some Creepsville Central grainy webcam. You can't flip the board when you're about to lose. All the good stuff. Of course, there is also the simple issue that actual local multiplayer in games with hidden elements is often impossible or clunky, and leaves you wishing you just had the board.

Exploits, imbalances, and being "played out." What most people would view as a positive to video board games--the ability to cycle through play sessions 10x faster than tabletop sessions--is perhaps a negative to me. I can go on my PC and play 5+ sessions of Ticket to Ride in an hour, whereas the tabletop version takes me about an hour for a single session, and is something that's far more difficult to "get together." This is even truer for 3+ player games, where I can usually only play the tabletop when you have friends over. The issue I have with this is that it just whittles the game down to its barest play mechanics in no time. To be corny, the "magic" of discovering a game's strategies and imbalances over months or years of play sessions can be exhausted in one night at the computer. This is one of the big reasons I've stayed away from recent XBLA releases.
Winning the game is important when I sit down with friends or my wife, but to go back to the first point the social experience and everything that goes along with it is often more important. When you go online, it doesn't feel like you're diabolically plotting to ruin your another player's plans, or you're in whatever universe the game has created--it feels like you're playing math against each other.

All that being said, board video games are still very fun. Especially when they're conversions of timeless games like Catan and Ticket to Ride. The fact that they've broadened the audience for niche games is a benefit that can't be underestimated. I would kill for a Robo Rally on XBLA just for the fact that Robo Rally has almost limitless scenarios and plays best with 5+ people.

What do you think of the board game vs. video board game experience? Any games you're dying to see converted?
 
AstroLad said:
What do you think of the board game vs. video board game experience? Any games you're dying to see converted?

Risk.

Also,

The social element. -> Agreed. Nothing like playing with your friends. Interaction is much higher when you are at home with them joking and drinking, moving their pieces without them knowing, etc...

Losing the aesthetic appeal of the board game. -> Not agreed. IMO it brings a new look to the game and makes it clear and easier. You cannot lose parts of the game so that is a plus :)
 
The benefits of actually being able to play the games with friends far outweigh any negatives.

Getting 4+ adults with normal lives together in one physical space for an uninterrupted period of time is a herculean task. Being able to play together online is far, far easier.

As far as the game mechanics go, the game is either good, or its not, boardgame or videogame. The fact that a game is horribly flawed and it takes you a year to figure out is not a 'plus' for the tabletop version. If it's fun, that doesn't really matter anyway.

Bring on Descent on XBLA, I wish to strike down my friends as Overlord.
 
I like the idea of them. It would be awesome to be able to play arkham horror without the setup/cleanup. But even if a video game version existed, I doubt I would play it because playing board games with random people doesn't really interest me. I have a specific group I play board games with and I don't think playing against them online would really appeal to me at all.

My favorite part of video game versions is that you can't argue about the rules. On the other hand most probably prevent house rules.
 
They don't suck. They are pure awesome.

edit: Local play is best though. I used to LAN Risk on the PC in a dorm suite back in my freshman year.

edit2: Also: Scrabble is awesome over LAN.
 
I'd like to see more conversions of games that are time-consuming and unwieldy in their original board game form but would breeze by with the bookkeeping capabilities of software. If they are heavily flavour-focused (and can therefore take better advantage of graphical/sound capabilities than more abstract games), all the better.

A game that qualifies that immediately comes to mind is Twilight Imperium. It'd be awesome as a video game, and basically like a new Master of Orion game.
 
itxaka said:
Risk.

Also,

The social element. -> Agreed. Nothing like playing with your friends. Interaction is much higher when you are at home with them joking and drinking, moving their pieces without them knowing, etc...

Losing the aesthetic appeal of the board game. -> Not agreed. IMO it brings a new look to the game and makes it clear and easier. You cannot lose parts of the game so that is a plus :)

Yep, Risk would be a good one (hey, release Black Ops, it even sounds like a 360 game!). On the aesthetic point, I'm not a Warhammer player or one of the many people who create their own boards and characters (see, e.g.:
dbrxq9.jpg
) so I don't fall on the far end of the spectrum, but the tactile element for me stil prevails over anything I've seen technologically.
 
I always like the idea. But to be honest I barely play the Catan and Carcassone on XBLA that I have already. I think for me board games belong on the table with friends there in person. I don't really see the big advantage of moving that experience online as all of my online gaming friends would usually rather just play an actual video game of some type.
 
I really enjoy those where two people can play onscreen at once, as my wife and I like playing boardgames, but can't be arsed to keep up with the pieces or mess with board setup. That and so few of the good boardgames are two player. Carcassone was perfect for us.

For larger groups the real thing is always best.
 
I haven't been a huge fan of most board games as video games... Something about it just doesn't click well with me. But with that said, I would kill for someone to release Dune: The boardgame: The video game.
 
Nah!
To me, nothing is ever going to be an actual board game..
Nothing better than the actual interaction, human contact, looking at each other faces..things like that..
 
besada said:
I really enjoy those where two people can play onscreen at once, as my wife and I like playing boardgames, but can't be arsed to keep up with the pieces or mess with board setup. That and so few of the good boardgames are two player. Carcassone was perfect for us.

For larger groups the real thing is always best.

As someone who's been scouring for the best two-player games to play with my wife, allow me to recommend the following two-player only games if you're ever looking for a good one:

-Catan card game: Vaguely similar to the board game in that you roll a die to get resources, but beyond that quite a bit better because it has many interesting event cards, different buildings, etc. There's tons of screwing with the other person by, e.g., playign an arsonist card on one of their buildings, looking at their cards, etc. You'll notice I'm a sucker for card-draw games.

-1960: The Making of the President/Twilight Struggle: These games are actually quite similar, so it depends if you're more on a presidential election kick or cold war kick. They're both card-based strategic board games, where the election/cold war events on the cards are worked woven brilliantly into the play mechanics. Both take maybe an hour to learn, though Making of the President is simpler. Twilight Struggle is deeper and gives you more options. I love them both.
 
besada said:
I really enjoy those where two people can play onscreen at once, as my wife and I like playing boardgames, but can't be arsed to keep up with the pieces or mess with board setup. That and so few of the good boardgames are two player. Carcassone was perfect for us.
Wat...

Seriously though, there's a ton of good 2-player boardgames out there (either 2p only or games that scale well down to 2p), either check the thread on OT or scour around BGG.
 
RE: being played out, I collect Monopoly boards. I've got 22 right now, I think. I don't play as much as I used to, but once upon a time I was playing two-three games per day every day with a set of friends. To the point that games became instantaneous because we could all calculate rent in our heads so we'd just roll and pass the dice with no verbal communication.

To some extent, that's what a video game version of a board game is like. Developers then add animations, artificial delays, and other elements to slow the game down to the regular pace.

But I don't necessarily see there as being a problem. Most pro/amateur poker players prefer to play at a real table, but that doesn't mean they don't see the advantages of internet poker. Play against a wider variety of players. Play far more hands. Minimize variance to get a better feel for skill. It doesn't replace the real thing, but it certainly supplements it and makes for an easier experience.

... the converse is video games as board games. Those do suck. Playing the Civilization board game is not feasible. It's ridiculous. Never again!
 
Victrix said:
As far as the game mechanics go, the game is either good, or its not, boardgame or videogame. The fact that a game is horribly flawed and it takes you a year to figure out is not a 'plus' for the tabletop version. If it's fun, that doesn't really matter anyway.

Maybe I should explain a little further. I certainly don't mean to claim that board games are better because it takes you longer to realize that they're shitty. But, as I hopefully made clear, there's much more to it than just "mechanics are mechanics." Otherwise rather than getting out Ticket to Ride to play with my wife, we would just both get on our computers and breeze through five games in an hour rather than one. So one element of it is that the social aspects often make mechanics secondary, so to use a Wii word, you have more fun because you're not exclusively focused on the core mechanics--you're not "playing math" against another person. Some people love to only consider the mechanics of games--I'd imagine these people would encourage video game conversions above all if just for the mere efficiency of it, so obviously I'm not that kind of person. I'll happily concede that a lot of this sentiment is touchy-feely stuff, but it's still material to me.

Further regarding mechanics, board games always allow you to modify the rules and victory conditions much more than any video game. Though some video games are better at this than others, it's usually hard to stray too far from the basic rules. In a board game, any perceived imbalance can be "fixed" on the spot.
 
I bought the Monopoly party game for the Nintendo Gamecube some time ago, and while the graphics were nice and it flawlessly incorporated all the rules of the game, plus had cool features not available on the board game, it felt like a cheap imitation of the real thing.

For starters, it was impossible to cheat, because the computer rolled the dice and the computer moved your piece. So no deliberate overcounting/undercounting to avoid the opponents' hotels. In addition to that, opponents could be less attentive of other players landing on their property, as the game does its damnest to notify the land-owner that an opponent has landed on his/her property and proceeds to automatically extract the rent money anyway.

Oh, and you can forget about plucking an additional $500 from the bank.

It was too orderly, too unforgiving. It just goes against the underlying principle of the game, which is to build a monopoly, and considering monopolies are "bad," why should any of the players indulging in a fantasy version of it be any "good"?
 
NintendosBooger said:
It was too orderly, too unforgiving. It just goes against the underlying principle of the game, which is to build a monopoly, and considering monopolies are "bad," why should any of the players indulging in a fantasy version of it be any "good"?

Although I realize you say this at least partly in jest, it does go back to the inflexibility point. A game like Last Night on Earth has dozens of fan-made scenarios to support it. While it wouldn't be impossible to implement them in a video game, I still haven't seen a game with anything near the unlimited flexibility that a board game provides.
 
I used to really enjoy playing sports board games, i.e. Strat-o-matic, APBA, etc. Does anyone still play those or have tried recent computer versions of them? I had a version of Strat for my Apple and the Win3.1 version of Baseball for windows but haven't bought one recently since they are pricey and I'm not sure of the quality. They used to have to world's worst copy protection, i.e. you couldn't reinstall them if you reformatted your hard drive.
 
Axis and Allies would be the game for me. So many pieces, set up time, etc. would make a video game version welcome - preferably on XBLA.

Perhaps a Magic the Gathering game too.
 
larvi said:
I used to really enjoy playing sports board games, i.e. Strat-o-matic, APBA, etc. Does anyone still play those or have tried recent computer versions of them? I had a version of Strat for my Apple and the Win3.1 version of Baseball for windows but haven't bought one recently since they are pricey and I'm not sure of the quality. They used to have to world's worst copy protection, i.e. you couldn't reinstall them if you reformatted your hard drive.

Just tangentially, you've played Out of the Park Baseball, right?
 
Aside from two short multiplayer GTA sessions and Metal Gear Online, Ticket To Ride on XBLA is pretty much the only video game I've played in the past 3 weeks.
 
TxdoHawk said:
Aside from two short multiplayer GTA sessions and Metal Gear Online, Ticket To Ride on XBLA is pretty much the only video game I've played in the past 3 weeks.

Yep, it can be quite addictive (PC version here). Ironically, some of the issues came up b/c of a post someone made on BGG about how the online game "ruined" the tabletop experience for them.
 
Stumpokapow said:
... the converse is video games as board games. Those do suck. Playing the Civilization board game is not feasible. It's ridiculous. Never again!
No, bad poorly thought-up board games with a game license tacked on suck. Just like similar licensed video games. There are actually good ones out there, like Starcraft and Doom.

The Civ game you're referring to I'm guessing is Sid Meier's Civilization the Board Game. Yes, it is awful. But that's not because it was based on the computer game (which was originally inspired by boardgames). It's because the game wasn't very well designed. There's better Civ style games out there, like Through The Ages which is due to have a new revision out in a few months.
 
I just got back into Catan and pretty much the only detraction is so few people know the shortcuts that videogame version supplies. I can't count how many times people have opened up trade to ask for supplies that don't exist.
 
AstroLad said:
Just tangentially, you've played Out of the Park Baseball, right?

No, I don't believe I have, unless it's the same as Season Ticket Baseball which I do own the 2003 version of that. Is OOP pretty much the best baseball sim out there now?
 
Actually quite a few video-game-themed board games out there, of vastly varying quality apparently. Only one I've seriously played is AoE III, which is quite good:

BGG said:
1 Railroad Tycoon 7.74
2 Age of Empires III: The Age of Discovery 7.69
3 StarCraft: The Board Game 7.36
4 Doom: The Boardgame 6.85
5 World of Warcraft: The Boardgame 6.71
6 World of Warcraft Trading Card Game 6.33
7 Warcraft - The Boardgame 6.05
8 Halo ActionClix 5.84
9 EVE: The Second Genesis CCG 5.83
10 Pink Godzilla Dev Kit 5.71
11 Dark Millennium The Warhammer 40,000 Collectible Card Game 5.70
12 Sid Meier's Civilization: The Boardgame 5.69 1219
13 Frag 5.60
14 Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness 5.51
15 Universal Fighting System - Penny Arcade 5.48
16 Tetris 5.46
17 Tomb Raider 5.44
18 .hack//ENEMY 5.41
19 Zaxxon 5.23
20 PAC-MAN Game 5.05
21 Transformers 3D Battle Card Game 4.97
22 Sim City: The Card Game 4.72

:lol at:

Sim City: The Card Game
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PAC-MAN Game
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Zaxxon
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Tetris
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AstroLad said:
Actually quite a few video-game-themed board games out there, of vastly varying quality apparently. Only one I've seriously played is AoE III, which is quite good:

I own a starter and a few boosters of Sim City: The Card Game. It's playable, but takes up more room than anything else imaginable and scoring is nightmarish. Would not recommend it to ANYONE.
 
Stumpokapow said:
I own a starter and a few boosters of Sim City: The Card Game. It's playable, but takes up more room than anything else imaginable and scoring is nightmarish. Would not recommend it to ANYONE.

It must be; it's rated below Pac-Man. I mean look at Pac-Man!

No, I don't believe I have, unless it's the same as Season Ticket Baseball which I do own the 2003 version of that. Is OOP pretty much the best baseball sim out there now?

Yes, it's an amazing game for any stat freak. Probably the best PC sports game out there right now all told. Quite possibly the deepest game ever. Also available on Steam fwiw.

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http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/out-of-the-park-baseball-9/886193p1.html
 
AstroLad said:
Yes, it's an amazing game for any stat freak. Probably the best PC sports game out there right now all told. Quite possibly the deepest game ever. Also available on Steam fwiw.

Thanks for the recommendation, I see the developer has $10 off special going on for it right now too until Sunday.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/newsletters/nl0046/
For $30 I'll definitely give it a shot.

Any good football (american) or basketball sims out there that you are aware of?
 
AstroLad said:
:lol at:
PAC-MAN Game
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I actually bought this, lol. I still have it.
 
larvi said:
Any good football (american) or basketball sims out there that you are aware of?

The only ones I'm aware of are those made by Wolverine: http://www.wolverinestudios.com. I've never tried them though; my favs are OOTP, Adam Ryland's wrestling sims, and of course Football Manager, though I haven't played that in a while either.
 
Stumpokapow said:
I own a starter and a few boosters of Sim City: The Card Game. It's playable, but takes up more room than anything else imaginable and scoring is nightmarish. Would not recommend it to ANYONE.
Again, don't look for board/card games solely by title. You need to check into the design and play mechanics. As I stated in my earlier post, it's not because it has Sim City in the name does it suck, it would suck just as well with any other title.
 
TAJ said:
I actually bought this, lol. I still have it.

If I were a collector, I would consider it. Looks like they had about three or four different Pac-Man games, but that 1980 one is definitely the coolest-looking. Kind of surprised by how few video game translatiosn there were in the 80s (and almost none at all in the 90s). Zaxxon was a neat find though.
 
AstroLad said:
:lol at:

Sim City: The Card Game
294rqwz.jpg


PAC-MAN Game
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I had both of these. The Pac-Man game was great when I was a child only because I was able to use Pac-Man and his ghosts as action figures. The Sim-City card game sucked and I bought the packs of cards for .25 a piece with starter decks at a dollar.
 
As far as Sim City being cumbersome, yeah. BGG pic labeled "The beginning of phase III (City phase)":

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Worst CCG ever indeed. :lol
 
AlternativeUlster said:
I had both of these. The Pac-Man game was great when I was a child only because I was able to use Pac-Man and his ghosts as action figures. The Sim-City card game sucked and I bought the packs of cards for .25 a piece with starter decks at a dollar.
I had the Pac-Man one and the Zaxxon one as a kid. The pieces were fun to use, but I don't think we ever played the games like we were supposed to.
 
Upon further research, original list from BGG left out quite a few, including:

-Q-Bert
-Pole Position
-Roller Coaster Tycoon
-Legend of Zelda
-Super Mario Bros. (I knew there were Nintendo board games!)
-Centipede
-Pitfall
-Donkey Kong
-Frogger

80s were definitely the heyday of board video games.

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Excellent post, Astro. I don't mind losing the tactile and aesthetic aspects, but the social interaction is definitely limited. It doesn't help that pretty much none of my IRL friends have 360's, which means I end up playing with randoms, who are generally mic-less or stupid.

Really though, nothing beats playing around a table with friends.

With XBLA Catan, I have some very specific complaints. The game keeps track of, and makes available all of the information that in a live game, you would have to remember yourself. What the rolls were, who has what material, and so on. Keeping track of this stuff plays a significant role in IRL play, but is available with a hold of the LB on XBLA. It cheapens the game.
 
My opinion on board games vs. their video game equivalent : videogames win by miles.

1. No setting up the board
2. No cheating by accident
3. AI players / online players
 
Revengeance said:
With XBLA Catan, I have some very specific complaints. The game keeps track of, and makes available all of the information that in a live game, you would have to remember yourself. What the rolls were, who has what material, and so on. Keeping track of this stuff plays a significant role in IRL play, but is available with a hold of the LB on XBLA. It cheapens the game.

Yeah, that was actually one of the first things I noticed. Catan is one of the best video board games, but I found the decision to include all that information a bit odd.
 
Zero_Phoenix said:
My opinion on board games vs. their video game equivalent : videogames win by miles.

1. No setting up the board
Trying to organize an online multiplayer game can take just as long in some cases.
2. No cheating by accident
Just actual REAL cheating instead in some cases depending on the game, sometimes by organized people. Great. :P
3. AI players / online players
In many cases, this isn't a positive either.

Besides, boardgames allow awesomeness like this:

pic194278_md.jpg
 
XiaNaphryz said:
Trying to organize an online multiplayer game can take just as long in some cases.

I think those would have to be some pretty extreme cases. Anyways, I'm talking about physically setting up pieces, and of course the cleanup as well.

XiaNaphryz said:
Just actual REAL cheating instead in some cases depending on the game, sometimes by organized people. Great. :P

You're saying people are able to cheat in the videogame versions? It's far easier to cheat in a physical game, but I think it's great to have a computer keeping track of everything so gameplay mistakes don't happen.

XiaNaphryz said:
In many cases, this isn't a positive either.

I think it's only a positive. It's only a negative when you lose local friend playing ability (like card games which only allow local single player). Carcassonne on XBLA for example can be played with a friend in the same room, and we can have just as fun/wacky of a time.
 
Zero_Phoenix said:
I think those would have to be some pretty extreme cases. Anyways, I'm talking about physically setting up pieces, and of course the cleanup as well.

You're saying people are able to cheat in the videogame versions? It's far easier to cheat in a physical game, but I think it's great to have a computer keeping track of everything so gameplay mistakes don't happen.

I think it's only a positive. It's only a negative when you lose local friend playing ability (like card games which only allow local single player). Carcassonne on XBLA for example can be played with a friend in the same room, and we can have just as fun/wacky of a time.

It really just comes down to ymmv/priorities. As I said in a few posts, if you're purely interested in grinding through game after game, purely focused on the mechanics as written and attaining the victory conditions set out by the game, a decent video game conversion will almost always be the answer. Some have different priorities though. I think the grind mentality is much more prevalent among video gamers. Not saying that's good or bad, just that it's different.

The cheating point I think is a bit weaker. If you're talking about players who either don't know the rules or aren't paying close enough attention to the game, it's going to be a diluted experience in any format. The major sacrifice in having the video game be the infallible referee is the lack of flexibility I discussed earlier. It will never make a mistake, but at the same time it will also never let you deviate from the rules (beyond whatever variants are built into the game, usually few or none). Many, many board games are best played with modified rules, user-created scenarios, etc. It's a compromise, and as long as you have players who know what they're doing and who are paying attention, I'd say you're better off with the flexibility.

The final point is another ymmv one. A game like Carcassonne in particular I just don't find nearly as engaging for two players with controllers as it is for two players sitting at table. This is entirely a matter of personal preference.
 
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