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Women's role in islam: The story

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Anaxagoras

Banned
In this thread I will present the different problems and difficulties that Muslim women have to go through through their childhood, adult life and possibly their after life.

At Birth:
The degrading of females in Islam starts at birth, where two sheep are sacrificed as a way to thank God if the new born is a male, but only one if the new born is a female.

The Prophet Mohammed said:
عَنِ الْغُلاَمِ شَاتَان، وَعَنِ الأنثى واحدة

Which translates into:
For a boy two sheep and a female one

Source:
1516 صحيح سنن الترمذى - حديث رقم
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Early Childhood:
Islam permits the father to marry off his daughter even before she reaches puberty.

The Koran says, speaking of the '' العِدَّة'' which is the period where the divorced woman is not allowed to marry to make sure that she is not pregnant:

وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ

And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not.

Source: Quran 65:4
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( وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ) (along with those who have it not) means also those who haven't reached puberty, as said by أُبَيُّ بنُ كَعْب:

لما نزلتِ الآية التي في سورة البقرة في عددٍ من عددِ النساء، قالوا:
قد بقيَ عددٌ من عددِ النساء لم يُذْكَرن.. الصغار و الكبار و لا من انقطعتْ عنهنَّ الحيض و ذواتُ الأحمال.. فأُنزلت: .. واللائي يَئِسْنَ منَ المحيض .. الآية.

When the verse in Sura Al-Baqara that speaks of absence menstruation was sent down to the prophet, they said:

There are a couple of menstruations that haven't been addressed yet, those who are under aged, those who are old and those who are cut from it due to pregnancy, and that's when the verse (واللائي يَئِسْنَ منَ المحيض) (And those who passed the age of menstruation) was sent down to us.

Source: المستدرك على الصحيحن للحاكم ص492-493 وصححه، ووافقه الذهبي

Most of the scholars who have interpreted the verses went along with this explanation:
الطَّبَري:
وكذلك عدد اللائي لم يحضن من الجواري لصغرهن.. إذا طلقهنّ أزواجُهُنَّ بعد الدخول
As well those who haven't menstruated due to their young age, if the husband divorced them after sexual intercourse.

البَغَوي:
يعني الصغار اللائي لم يحضن
Meaning the young ones who haven't started menstruating yet.

الزَّمَخْشَري:
هن الصغائر
The young ones.

القرطبي..
يعني الصغيرة
The young one.

ابن كثير:
وكذا الصغار اللائي لم يبلغنَ سنَ الحيض أن عِدَّتَهُن كعدةِ الآيسة ثلاثةَ أشهر؛ ولهذا قال: { وَاللائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ }
As well as the young ones who didn't reach the age of menstruation, they are regarded as those who are incapable of menstruation, which is three months, hence: واللائي يَئِسْنَ منَ المحيض

المَحَلِّي والسيُوطِي:
لصغرهنّ
For their young age.

الآلوسي:
الصغارُ اللائي لم يبلغنَ سنَّ الحيض .
The young ones who didn't reach the age of menstruation
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Abu Bakir has married off his daughter Aisha when she was only 6 years old to the prophet of Islam Mohammed when his age has exceeded the age of 50 years, and Mohammed had sexual intercourse with her when she was 9 years old.

Aisha says in Sahih Al-Bukhari, which is the second most trusted book in Islam after the Quran:
تَزَوَّجَنِى النَّبِىُّ وَأَنَا بِنْتُ سِتِّ سِنِين، فَقَدِمْنَا الْمَدِينَةَ فَنَزَلْنَا فِى بَنِى الْحَارِثِ بْنِ خَزْرَج، فَأَتَتْنِى أُمِّى أُمُّ رُومَانَ وَإِنِّى لَفِى أُرْجُوحَةٍ وَمَعِى صَوَاحِبُ لِى، فَصَرَخَتْ بِى فَأَتَيْتُهَا لاَ أَدْرِى مَا تُرِيدُ بِى، فَأَخَذَتْ بِيَدِى حَتَّى أَوْقَفَتْنِى عَلَى بَابِ الدَّارِ، وَإِنِّى لأَنْهَجُ،حَتَّى سَكَنَ بَعْضُ نَفَسِى،ثُمَّ أَخَذَتْ شَيْئًا مِنْ مَاءٍ فَمَسَحَتْ بِهِ وَجْهِى وَرَأْسِى، ثُمَّ أَدْخَلَتْنِى الدَّارَ، فَإِذَا نِسْوَةٌ مِنَ الأَنْصَارِ فِى الْبَيْتِ، فَقُلْنَ عَلَى الْخَيْرِ وَالْبَرَكَةِ ، فَأَسْلَمَتْنِى إِلَيْهِنَّ فَأَصْلَحْنَ مِنْ شَأْنِى ، فَلَمْ يَرُعْنِى إِلاَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ضُحًى، فَأَسْلَمَتْنِى إِلَيْهِ وَأَنَا يَوْمَئِذٍ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِين.

The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

Source: Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, 234
(صحيح البخاري حديث رقم 3894 ج3 ص66).
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Late Childhood:
The husband is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his wife even if she didn't reach puberty as long as her body can handle it. If not then he can still take sexual pleasure of her body without having sexual intercourse.

قال الخَرْشي: ((وَقَوْلُهُ "وَأَمْكَنَ وَطْؤُهَا" أَيْ بِلَا حَدِّ سِنٍّ بَلْ يَخْتَلِفُ بِاخْتِلَافِ الْأَشْخَاصِ، وَلَا يُشْتَرَطُ الِاحْتِلَامُ فِيهَا كَالرَّجُلِ، لِأَنَّ مَنْ أَطَاقَتْ الْوَطْءَ يَحْصُلُ بِهَا لِلرَّجُلِ كَمَالُ اللَّذَّة ))
As he said ''It is possible to have sexual intercourse with her'' as in it is not decidable by age since it differers from a person to another, for whoever tolerates sexual intercourse completes the husbands needs for pleasure.
Source: شرح مختصر خليل للخرشي – باب النكاح – فصل الصداق

وقال الزَّيْلَعي: ((وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي حَدِّهِ فَقِيلَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِين ، وَالصَّحِيحُ أَنَّهُ غَيْرُ مُقَدَّرٍ بِالسِّنِّ ، وَإِنَّمَا الْعِبْرَةُ لِلِاحْتِمَالِ وَالْقُدْرَةِ عَلَى الْجِمَاعِ فَإِنَّ السَّمِينَةَ الضَّخْمَةَ تَحْتَمِلُ الْجِمَاعَ ، وَإِنْ كَانَتْ صَغِيرَةَ السِّنِّ))
And they differed as it was said 9 years old, but the truth is that it is not measured by age, but by the strength, and ability to tolerate sexual intercourse, hence the fit one tolerates sexual intercourse even if she was young.
Source: تبيين الحقائق شرح كنز الدقائق – كتاب الطلاق – باب النفقة.
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And that is what happened with Aisha, where her parents feed her to she was fit enough to tolerate sexual intercourse with Mohammaed, as she says:

(( كَانَتْ أُمِّى تُعَالِجُنِى لِلسُّمْنَةِ تُرِيدُ أَنْ تُدْخِلَنِى عَلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ.. فَمَا اسْتَقَامَ لَهَا ذَلِكَ حَتَّى أَكَلْتُ الْقِثَّاءَ بِالرُّطَب.. فَسَمِنْتُ كَأَحْسَنِ سُمْنَة.))
My mother used to rush me into obesity, she wanted to get me to have sex with the prophet .. it didn't satisfy her till I started eating cucumbers and dates.. and that is when I got obese/fit for it.
Source: صحيح سنن ابن ماجه للألباني ج3 ص131


ولذلك قال السَّرَخْسِي تعليقاً على الرواية عن عائشة: ((وَفِيهِ دَلِيلٌ أَنَّ الصَّغِيرَةَ يَجُوزُ أَنْ تُزَفَّ إلَى زَوْجِهَا إذَا كَانَتْ صَالِحَةً لِلرِّجَالِ.. فَإِنَّهَا زُفَّتْ إلَيْهِ وَهِيَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ.. فَكَانَتْ صَغِيرَةً فِي الظَّاهِرِ.. وَجَاءَ فِي الْحَدِيثِ أَنَّهُمْ سَمَّنُوهَا فَلَمَّا سَمِنَتْ زُفَّتْ إلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ))
And that is why Al-Sarkhasi commented on Aisha's story: In it [the story] is evidence that the young one is allowed to be married off to her husband if she was suitable for him.. hence she was married off to him when she was nine ..she was young on the outside .. It is also mentioned in the Hadith that they feed her till she was fir for it and that's when she was married to the prophet.
Source: المبسوط للسرخسي ج4 ص213.
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In one of the internet's largest Islamic website, Islamweb, which is specialized in making Fatwas, A Fatwa was published under the following tittle:

الاستمتاع بالزوجة الصغيرة.. رؤية شرعية
Having [sexual] pleasure with the young wife .. Sharia's view of it

It contained the following:
فإنه لا حرجَ في تقبيلِ الزوجة الصغيرة بشهوة والمفاخذة ونحوَ ذلك ولو كانت لا تطيقُ الجماع
وقد بيَّنَ العلماء أن الأصلَ جوازُ استمتاع الرجل بزوجته كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
وذكروا في ذلك استمناءَه بيدها ومداعبَتها وتقبيلَها وغير ذلك

There is no shame or embarrassment in kissing the young wife with pleasure and ''Mofakhatha'' [rubbing your male organ back and forth between her thighs] and so on even if she didn't tolerate sexual intercourse.
Scientists have agreed that the husband is free to have please from his young wife as long as he doesn't hurt her.

Source: http://www.islamweb.net/VER2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=78529&Option=FatwaId
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Another fatwa was also made under the name: الاستمتاع بالزوجة الصغيرة, having pleasure of a young wife.
فإنه لا ضررَ في الإنزالِ بين فخذي الصغيرة التي لا تطيقُ الجماع وتتضررُ به إذا كان ذلك الإنزالُ بدونِ إيلاج،
وقد بَيَّنَ العلماءُ أن الأصلَ هو جوازُ استمتاعِ الرجلِ بزوجتِه كيف شاء إذا لم يكن ضرر
There is no harm in ejaculating between the thighs of the young one even if she didn't tolerate sexual intercourse and gets harmed by it if that ejaculation is done without sexual intercourse.
Scientists have shown that the husband is free to do whatever he wills as long as he doesn't cause any harm to the young wife.

source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...c-Ask_Scholar/FatwaA/FatwaA&cid=1122528623306
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Adult life:
The degrading of the adult woman starts when she starts going through menstruation.

Allah says in the Quran:

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُوا النِّسَاءَ فِي الْمَحِيضِ وَلَا تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّى يَطْهُرْنَ
They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed.
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Quran 2:222

When a woman is menstruating she is not allowed to pray or fast, the prophet Mohammad said:
« أَلَيْسَ إِذَا حَاضَتْ لَمْ تُصَلِّ وَلَمْ تَصُمْ؟.. فَذَلِكَ نُقْصَانُ دِينِهَا »
Isn't it true that if she menstruates she won't pray or fast .. that decreases her religiosity.
Source: صحيح البخاري حديث رقم 1951 ج2 ص45
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And after she becomes an adult, she is equal to a dog or a donkey when it comes to cutting the prayer of a Muslim if she passed in front of him:

The prophet Mohammad said:
« يَقْطَعُ الصَّلاَةَ الْمَرْأَة وَالْحِمَار وَالْكَلْب».
A woman, a donkey and a dog cut off your prayer.
Source: صحيح مسلم ج2 ص60
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In Islam, women are considered less intelligent than men, that is why their testimony is only worth half of that of a man's when it comes to money and wealth, the Quran says:
وَاسْتَشْهِدُوا شَهِيدَيْنِ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاءِ أَنْ تَضِلَّ إِحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الْأُخْرَى
And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind.
Quran 2:282
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The prophet Mohammad also said:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301
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Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنْفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ
Quran 4:34
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A woman inherits only half of what a man inherits.
يُوصِيكُمُ اللَّهُ فِي أَوْلَادِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الْأُنْثَيَيْنِ
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females
Quran 4:11
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Marriage:
Womens rights when it comes to marriage:

In Islam, a woman cannot marry without the approval of her ‘Walee’, that is, the man in charge of her as a father or a brother. Mohammed said, "whichever woman gets married without the approval of her ‘Walee’, her marriage is abolished" (See: The authentic of Ibn Dawood’s collection, Al-Albany, vol. 1 p. 584).

Regarding the wife's status in marriage in Islam, Mohammad says, “If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say: ‘O Allah, I ask you for the good in her, and in the disposition you have given her; I take refuge in you from the evil in her, and in the disposition you have given her.’ When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing.” (See: The authentic of Ibn Dawood’ collection, Al-Albani, vol. 1 p. 601).

And also Mohammad says: “If I were to justify a person to prostrate after anybody other than God, I would have commanded the woman to prostrate after her husband. I swear to my lord, a woman cannot fulfill the obligation of her Lord until she has fulfilled the obligation of her husband, and even if he calls her for sex while she is on the back of a camel, she would never refuse him". (See: The authentic of Ibn Dawood’ collection, Al-Albani, vol. 2 p.121).

Asking for a divorce:

Muhammad said, “If any woman asks her husband for divorce without some strong reason, the odor of Paradise will be forbidden to her”. (See: The authentic of Ibn Dawood’ collection, Al-Albani, vol.2 p.17).

The wife needs to comply with her husbandÂ’s desires in bed.

According to Islam, a wife needs to comply with her husband’s desires in bed. The prophet Muhammad said: “If a man calls his wife to fulfill his needs. She must come, even if she is by the stove.” According to the Al-Tarmizi tradition. The prophet issued a severe warning to any wife who rebels against her husband in bed. The prophet said: “If a man invites his wife to bed and she refuses, and he is angry at her, the angels curse her until she wakes up in the morning.”

Beating of women:
The Quran permits a man to beat his wife if she did not obey him, or even if he feels that she might not obey him, that is before the disobedience might occur.
(Quran 4:34) ““As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them”.
Ibn Kathir says in his commentary, “meaning, the woman from whom you fear ill conduct with her husband, such as when she acts as if she is above her husband, disobeys him, ignores him, dislikes him, and so forth.”

Mohammad said, "Hang the whip up somewhere so that the people of the household might see it; it is discipline to them" (See: The authentic of Al-Jami Al-Sagheer Wa Ziyadatuh, Al-Albani, vol. 2 p. 744

In Jordan, one of the Arab open countries where they achieved the highest Arab percentage in eliminating illiteracy, a survey conducted by the National Council for Family Affairs in 2002, has revealed that 83% of women have supported man's right to beat his wife if she is found to have done anything that shows her being unfaithful to the husband. 60% of women have voted for the husband's right to beat the wife if she burnt the food in cooking, and 52% have voted for a man's beating his wife if she did not obey his commands. This is what Islam does to women in society.

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Death and Day of Judgment:
The blood money paid for the killing of a woman is half the sum paid for the killing of a man.

In Islam, whoever kills a soul willfully is to be also murdered. The family of the murdered one have the right to give up punishment and ask for the blood money. This compensation could be the judgment in cases of unintentional killing as road accidents. In Islam, the blood money paid for the killing of a woman is half the sum paid for the killing of a man. Imam Shafe`ee (767-820) said, "Be it in old or recent times, I do not know of a verdict except that woman's blood money is half the one of the man" (See his book Al-Om, vol. 7 p. 261).

Ibn Abdul Bar (978-1071) said, "Jurisprudents of Islam have agreed that woman's blood money is half that of a man" (See: Al-Tamhid by Ibn Abd al Bar, vol. 17, p. 358). Al Kasani (died 1191) said, "Woman's blood money is worth half the one of the man, as the companions of the prophet unanimously have established, in that it is related by Omar, Ali and Ibn Masood and Zayd Bin Thabit (companions) that they said in relation to woman's blood money that it is indeed half that of the male. No one among companions objected to them, so itÂ’s unanimously agreed. And since a woman in inheritance and testimony is on half merit of the male, so her blood money is on the same status" (See: Bada`ee Al Sana`ee vol. 7 p. 254).

The majority in hell are women and the minority in heaven are women:

After a woman dies, the greater likelihood is that she is going to Hell. Muhammad said as recorded in “Al-Bukhari’s authentic” (vol. 1 p. 1), "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the inmates of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?". He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.”

Muhammed also said as recorded in “Muslim’s authentic” (vol. 8 p. , “Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women would form a minority”.

Reward in heaven:

But if she is fortunate and she gets into Paradise she is facing the fact that a man will have in addition to his wives from this world his other wives from paradise, the wide-eyed virgins (Houris). The Quran says (44:54), “and We will wed them with Houris pure, beautiful ones.”

Regarding the men of paradise, Mohammad said as recorded in “Al-Bukhari’s authentic” (vol. 2 p. 434), “Everyone of them will have two wives”.

Moreover, The ‘Shaheed’ (martyr) is married to 72 virgins of the wide-eyed Houris. Thus says Mohammad. (See: The authentic of Al-Tirmidhi’s collection, Al-Albani, vol. 2 p. 240).

But as for a woman, in Paradise, she has none but her husband of the world where she lived previously. The Quran says regarding the wives of these men in paradise, “And with them shall be those who restrain the eyes, having beautiful eyes” (37:48).
Ibn Kathir said in his commentary, “means, chaste females, who will not look at anyone other than their husbands.
 
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:lol

Edit: Gonna throw in a "here we go" just for the hell of it.

Some bad shit for sure but women are treated pretty awfully by heaps of dudes no matter what their religion is. Im sure some of these assholes you could take away their beliefs and what not and they would still be absolute pricks. The acid in the face shit is pretty insane though, dudes should have their genitals steeped in the acid then be flayed.
 
Yeah, it seems from the islamic converts I have spoken to, life can be pretty rough for the females.

One friend of mine wanted to leave her husband but was afraid him and his brother would abduct and kill her. No matter how much I tried to convince her that that's not how we roll in England she wouldn't believe me. She said I wouldn't believe half the stories she could tell me of the shit that goes down in the muslim communities up north.

He didn't let her make eye contact with men or enter / leave a building at the same time as male employees and he waited across the road from the office every morning to make sure she went straight in and to her desk. I wanted to punch the fat prick but she assured me he'd beat her senseless if I did.
 
SmokyDave said:
Yeah, it seems from the islamic converts I have spoken to, life can be pretty rough for the females.

One friend of mine wanted to leave her husband but was afraid him and his brother would abduct and kill her. No matter how much I tried to convince her that that's not how we roll in England she wouldn't believe me. She said I wouldn't believe half the stories she could tell me of the shit that goes down in the muslim communities up north.

He didn't let her make eye contact with men or enter / leave a building at the same time as male employees and he waited across the road from the office every morning to make sure she went straight in and to her desk. I wanted to punch the fat prick but she assured me he'd beat her senseless if I did.
Click to expand...

That's a case where I'd acquit someone for murdering guys like that. Forget the law, clowns like that deserve horrible deaths.
 
Wow, why waste your time researching for something like that? I'm sure bible hasa lot of stuf like that. Let's all make a topic about Jew's book (if they have any?). Any topic related to "religion" and their "book" is a waste of time, imo.

Sexism still exists, believe it or not. Even in England/America/any other western country. *GASP* I know!!
 
Inanna Dan said:
Wow, why waste your time researching for something like that? I'm sure bible hasa lot of stuf like that. Let's all make a topic about Jew's book (if they have any?). Any topic related to "religion" and their "book" is a waste of time, imo.

Sexism still exists, believe it or not.
Click to expand...
For real?
 
Inanna Dan said:
Wow, why waste your time researching for something like that? I'm sure bible hasa lot of stuf like that. Let's all make a topic about Jew's book (if they have any?). Any topic related to "religion" and their "book" is a waste of time, imo.

Sexism still exists, believe it or not.
Click to expand...

I seem to recall the Bible provides you with the instructions on how to sell your daughter. Info like that is worth gold in a time of recession.
 
John Dunbar said:
I seem to recall the Bible provides you with the instructions on how to sell your daughter. Info like that is worth gold in a time of recession.
Click to expand...


And one of the "Jew's books", the Talmud, permits sex with 3-year-old girls under certain circumstances.


But no, Nizar wasn't raised by Jewish or Christian parents so he can't rebel against that.
 
Why is most peoples first instinct when confronted with criticism of Islam is to deflect that criticism or point out that other religions do it too?

Also, does it get any more retarded than "Well of course these values are all fucked up, these books are hundreds of years old"? Stop living by them then.
 
John Dunbar said:
I seem to recall the Bible provides you with the instructions on how to sell your daughter. Info like that is worth gold in a time of recession.
Click to expand...
Ah, let's discuss about that too while we're at it.

Nizar, like other people have already said in this topic, these books were written several hundred years ago, what did you expect? Wasn't any better for the women just a few decades ago, either. Also, why is that women cannot/or haven not run for presidency in America? Why women are sometimes paid less than men? WHY!!?! I DEMAND ANSWERS NOW GODDAMMIT!!
 
Of course, it is in all religious text/books... but the difference is that some religion doesn't force this, while other does?
 
SmokyDave said:
Why is most peoples first instinct when confronted with criticism of Islam is to deflect that criticism or point out that other religions do it too?
Click to expand...

I for one don't care if people criticize Islam, but if the method of criticism is random quotes from the Qur'an, then there is no reason why that criticism should be targeted towards Islam and not towards all archaic superstitions with a batshit insane holy book.
 
mobnauseum said:
Appreciate that this is 'Off Topic' thread, but..really? Can't you post this shite on a religious forum?

Clap clap on your research, hell I've just done some 'research' a.k.a Google about misogyny in the Christian bible:
http://www.thoughtzone.net/more-misogyny-from-the-bible/

Now let's all move on before this gets messy..

Sooo what about the Pac Man eh? Darn ghosts!..
Click to expand...
SuperAngelo64 said:
And one of the "Jew's books", the Talmud, permits sex with 3-year-old girls under certain circumstances.


But no, Nizar wasn't raised by Jewish or Christian parents so he can't rebel against that.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why people use the argument that "other religions aren't that kind either" to ignore or dismiss discussion about these issues altogether. If anything, it should mean we discuss these other religions too, instead of being dead silent about it because we all know it's "a can of worms". Touching the issues of a religion is not by definition religion bashing. And I don't think it's weird that Islam is the first religion to be talked about either, because afaik it is the one that gains the most souls today and has the most extreme views of them all (that are still practiced that is).


But yes, you can sell your daughter according to the Bible and the Torah says homosexuality is a mental disorder. Archaic views do not only apply to Islam. I don't think anyone will disagree on that.
 
SmokyDave said:
Why is most peoples first instinct when confronted with criticism of Islam is to deflect that criticism or point out that other religions do it too?
Click to expand...
It's not about Islam, it's "religion". I just don't get why people like to argue over religions. My religion (although i don't really follow it) is better than yours! Take that!
 
SuperAngelo64 said:
And one of the "Jew's books", the Talmud, permits sex with 3-year-old girls under certain circumstances.


But no, Nizar wasn't raised by Jewish or Christian parents so he can't rebel against that.
Click to expand...

Let's not say bad things about Jews and Christians as a response. Together, we form about 50% of the population, we're bound to have crazies in the midst of us.

Nizar clearly has personal issues with the kind of Islam he experienced. I hope he can in time, learn to separate what some people say and do or did, from the historical and spiritual context of Islam. Anything can be justified and forged by sinister people and the truth can be lied about.
 
SmokyDave said:
Why is most peoples first instinct when confronted with criticism of Islam is to deflect that criticism or point out that other religions do it too?
Click to expand...

Terrible question, stop baiting..
 
John Dunbar said:
I for one don't care if people criticize Islam, but if the method of criticism is random quotes from the Qur'an, then there is no reason why that criticism should be targeted towards Islam and not towards all archaic superstitions with a batshit insane holy book.
Click to expand...
Isn't the Qu'ran the perfect word of god that all muslims should live by?

My copy of the Qu'ran is hilarious. It advises me that if I fear high-handedness from my wife, I should ignore her until bedtime and then hit her. If I fear high handedness, none actually has to take place.

This Qu'ran isn't a sceptics annotated version, it's an honest translation sold in mosques and book stores all over the UK.
 
SmokyDave said:
Isn't the Qu'ran the perfect word of god that all muslims should live by?

My copy of the Qu'ran is hilarious. It advises me that if I fear high-handedness from my wife, I should ignore her until bedtime and then hit her. If I fear high handedness, none actually has to take place.

This Qu'ran isn't a sceptics annotated version, it's an honest translation sold in mosques and book stores all over the UK.
Click to expand...

Is that not all holy books for their target audience?

The point is that if you're going to take random quotes from any holy book, you can make any religion seem completely insane (because they are). There is no reason why someone like Nizar should single out Islam.
 
John Dunbar said:
Is that not all holy books for their target audience?

The point is that if you're going to take random quotes from any holy book, you can make any religion seem completely insane (because they are). There is no reason why someone like Nizar should single out Islam.
Click to expand...
Not all holy books claim to come 'from the horses mouth' so to speak. As for the bolded, people posting their opinions on matters they are familiar with and presenting them for discussion is the point of a forum. The fact that Nizar chose to criticise Islam means no sensible discussion can take place. I don't understand why.
 
John Dunbar said:
Is that not all holy books for their target audience?

The point is that if you're going to take random quotes from any holy book, you can make any religion seem completely insane (because they are). There is no reason why someone like Nizar should single out Islam.
Click to expand...

But why shouldn´t he?

He´s a former Muslim, right? It´s logical that that´s the religion he knows most about or at least more than the average Westerner knows about it, why shouldn´t he talk about it or start a discussion about it?

Just like I could start (another) thread about Christianity, but we have those every other day.
 
Inanna Dan said:
Ah, let's discuss about that too while we're at it.
Click to expand...
well I don't know the number of jews on this forum, so take it up with them

thing is when people bring up the old testament as a "see christians are just as bad", they often forget that there is the whole debate about the new covenant and the extend to which the old testament rules even apply to christians
 
I will take a break now, will continue later and it will be interesting I promise you.

The reason behind this thread is to discuss and cause awareness about the sharia laws, which I am against them being practiced in Europe, UK is an example of that.
It starts with a kiss and before you know it you will be changing dippers.

The reason I discuss mostly Islam out of all the religion is because I am an ex-muslim, I have been so for a year soon, and I still find the topic interesting, in fact I find it more and more interesting everyday.
 
Nizar said:
I will take a break now, will continue later and it will be interesting I promise you.

The reason behind this thread is to discuss and cause awareness about the sharia laws, which I am against them being practiced in Europe, UK is an example of that.
It starts with a kiss and before you know it you will be changing dippers.

The reason I discuss mostly Islam out of all the religion is because I am an ex-muslim, I have been so for a year soon, and I still find the topic interesting, in fact I find it more and more interesting everyday.
Click to expand...

can you tell how you quit being a muslim?
if you are an EX one that all that shit must have made sense to you sometime in your life right?
what made you realize its all BS?
 
Binabik15 said:
But why shouldn´t he?

He´s a former Muslim, right? It´s logical that that´s the religion he knows most about or at least more than the average Westerner knows about it, why shouldn´t he talk about it or start a discussion about it?

Just like I could start (another) thread about Christianity, but we have those every other day.
Click to expand...
Could you use average 'non-Muslim' instead of average 'Western'? Because you do know there are Westerners that are Muslims too right.
Pedantic not Politically Correct ;)

The OP ca do whatever he wants but quoting passages from the Quran and implying that's how most Muslim women are treated or that's why they are treated as such is misleading. There are lots of rules in the Quran that even its most fastidious adherents ignore and every religion is selective about what batshit insane recommendations they take from their Holy Book (Not all Discordians eat hot dogs on Fridays, for example). The OP is also ignoring the context in which these books were written.

Anyway, OP, do so more research and make the thread better:



 
Even though there a Muslims in the Western world, there aren´t enough to be the average.

My point still stands, the average Westerner doesn´t know a great deal about Islam.
Yeah, bad wording.

And if you feel the way that Nizar is misrepresenting the treatment of women in Islam and want to argue that it might be cultural or for economical reasons that being a woman in countries like Saudi-Arabia, Irak or Iran kinda sucks, please do it (I can´t, I have a cat sleeping on my legs and an eye infection, writing long posts sucks right know). Actual discussion about the thread subject would be great IMO, but:

-Christians do it too!

-As do the Jews!

-Stop hating Islam!

-No you!

-^ No YOU!

flame wars don´t really add anything.
 
Binabik15 said:
But why shouldn´t he?

He´s a former Muslim, right? It´s logical that that´s the religion he knows most about or at least more than the average Westerner knows about it, why shouldn´t he talk about it or start a discussion about it?

Just like I could start (another) thread about Christianity, but we have those every other day.
Click to expand...

He hasn't posted anything but random quotes from a book all here who aren't fundamentalist muslims know is full of crazy. Hardly anything to display his superior knowledge of Islam.

Again, not arguing he shouldn't criticize Islam. I'm saying that "HOLY BOOK FULL OF CRAZY" is a silly argument when you've singled out a religion. It's true for pretty much every religion that has a manual.
 
John Dunbar said:
He hasn't posted anything but random quotes from a book all here who aren't fundamentalist muslims know is full of crazy. Hardly anything to display his superior knowledge of Islam.

Again, not arguing he shouldn't criticize Islam. I'm saying that "HOLY BOOK FULL OF CRAZY" is a silly argument when you've singled out a religion. It's true for pretty much every religion that has a manual.
Click to expand...
I'm really confused here. Can someone correct me in plain and simple terms...

Do muslims believe the Qu'ran to be the perfect word of god?

I had no idea until this topic that muslims could just pick and choose which bits to follow.

Edit: Also, your summary of the OP is a little insulting. It's obvious some effort went into the compiling of the quotes.
 
MrHicks said:
can you tell how you quit being a muslim?
if you are an EX one that all that shit must have made sense to you sometime in your life right?
what made you realize its all BS?
Click to expand...

Yes it made sense to me because I believed that it was true, but when I got introduced to cosmology and found out that earth is not older than the stars I started to get my serious doubts.

) He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask; (10) Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient. (11) Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower. Quran 41:9-12
Click to expand...

I started to shift from the moral/political understanding of Islam into the scientific, and the theory of knowledge helped me with that a lot, I started watching debates on youtube and I fell directly in love with the atheistic arguments.

About a year from that I decided one morning that I should not longer consider myself a muslim since I really don't believe that it is true, the same morning I announced my apostasy to my parents which eventually got me kicked out of the house.
 
SmokyDave said:
I'm really confused here. Can someone correct me in plain and simple terms...

Do muslims believe the Qu'ran to be the perfect word of god?

I had no idea until this topic that muslims could just pick and choose which bits to follow.
Click to expand...

Christians can't "pick and choose" what they want from the Bible, but they do anyway (cafeteria catholics etc.). Same goes for Muslims. They believe the parts they want to believe. There are over a billion muslims in the world. Are you telling me you never considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they don't all think exactly alike?

Most religions are simply used to back your own beliefs formed by environment, upbringing and experiences. You have an opinion and validate it with God.
 
Some of these things are incorrect. But fuck it im not going through all that.

Just one thing at least. Beating of women is misleading here.... Islam does permit the husband to beat his wife, ONLY in a way that it does not physically damage or hurt her(no slapping/kicking/punching etc) And this is a known fact btw...

And about marriage age. Islam not have a rule for marriage age, it leaves this for the cultural influence of the people. You can not compare yourself to the prophet regarding this and think that you or anyone can do it.

ahhh there are more misleading stuff. I suggest people not to believe this word by word. Specially the last part about hell and heaven, its all incorrect and misleading.
 
John Dunbar said:
Christians can't "pick and choose" what they want from the Bible, but they do anyway (cafeteria catholics etc.). Same goes for Muslims. They believe the parts they want to believe. There are over a billion muslims in the world. Are you telling me you never considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, they don't all think exactly alike?

Most religions are simply used to back your own beliefs formed by environment, upbringing and experiences. You have an opinion and validate it with God.
Click to expand...
Of course I have considered that possibility. That doesn't answer the bolded question. A quick googling shows that indeed, they do consider it the perfect word of god. Given that, there cannot be a true muslim on the planet that disagrees with the craziness in the qur'an surely? How are you going to tell your god that his perfect word is imperfect and outdated?
 
John Dunbar said:
He hasn't posted anything but random quotes from a book all here who aren't fundamentalist muslims know is full of crazy. Hardly anything to display his superior knowledge of Islam.

Again, not arguing he shouldn't criticize Islam. I'm saying that "HOLY BOOK FULL OF CRAZY" is a silly argument when you've singled out a religion. It's true for pretty much every religion that has a manual.
Click to expand...

There is no reason to get pissed of because a guy on the internet decided to discuss womens role in Islam by referring to ''random'' quotes.

Most muslims accept what I wrote as true, as long us they don't pull out their own understanding of the wisdom and the meaning of all of this to justify their modern/western lifestyle, and I am waiting for one to say that it isn't.

btw, what is obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to everybody else.
 
Rotsu said:
Some of these things are incorrect. But fuck it im not going through all that.
Click to expand...
mmm...

Just one thing at least. Beating of women is misleading here.... Islam does permit the husband to beat his wife, ONLY in a way that it does not physically damage or hurt her(no slapping/kicking/punching etc) And this is a known fact btw...
Click to expand...

No one claimed that beating her with an electric chainsaw is what is meant by ''beating'', but on the other hand claiming that it means to beat her with something like a feather or a napkin is just stupid and silly to say.

And about marriage age. Islam not have a rule for marriage age, it leaves this for the cultural influence of the people. You can not compare yourself to the prophet regarding this and think that you or anyone can do it.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that only the prophet can marry a young girl in Islam? source?

ahhh there are more misleading stuff. I suggest people not to believe this word by word. Specially the last part about hell and heaven, its all incorrect and misleading.
Click to expand...

May I ask you to correct me where I was wrong?
 
SmokyDave said:
Of course I have considered that possibility. That doesn't answer the bolded question. A quick googling shows that indeed, they do consider it the perfect word of god. Given that, there cannot be a true muslim on the planet that disagrees with the craziness in the qur'an surely? How are you going to tell your god that his perfect word is imperfect and outdated?
Click to expand...

Christians think Jesus is the son of God, so his word certainly should be the word of God. Do you think only the people who take the Bible literally (or at least the New Testament books where Jesus speaks) are true Christians?

Just an example, Jesus says only adultery is a valid reason to get divorced and divorced women can never marry again. Do you think that no one who thinks this should not be the law is a real Christian?

So why such a strict definition of Muslims? Does a Muslim have to be a fundie for you to consider him a Muslim?
 
John Dunbar said:
Christians can't "pick and choose" what they want from the Bible, but they do anyway (cafeteria catholics etc.). Same goes for Muslims. They believe the parts they want to believe.
Click to expand...

that's beacose the new testament isn't writen by jesus but by his disciples about his life, so it leaves a lot more room for interpratation beacose with saying "yeah that isn't so" you are saying "that random dude that wrote this might have gotten it wrong"

the quran on the other hand is the direct word from god as told to muhammed, so by saying "yeah that isn't so" so you basicly saying "yeah god got that part wrong"
 
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