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Should a man have a choice in becoming a father?

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S

Shanadeus

Banned
Right now it seems to me that the woman has absolute control over whether or not she will become a mother, as well as over whether the partner contributing to the pregnancy will become a father. If she does not want a kid then she can just get an abortion, and she won't be burdened with a child.

But if she wants to keep the child, then the father of the child is obliged to at the very least support it economically (do correct me if I'm wrong as this is what I have an issue with) - no matter what he personally wants. He is always at the mercy of the female, who can decide whether or not he'll be the father regardless of whether he wants to become one or not (I am sorry for the gaffers here who've wanted a child but been denied when your partner got an abortion.)

This is a completely imbalanced and unjust system in my honest opinion.

While we cannot do anything against the last situation I mentioned above, where the mother wants an abortion and the father wants to keep the child, we can at least shift some power away from the mother to the father when he does not want a child yet the mother choses to have one by not aborting. The father should be able to opt out of parenthood if he's informed her in due time for an abortion that he is not interested in being a father, so that the mother will still have time to get an abortion in case she does not want to end up as a single mother.

He will be absolved of all responsibilities if the mother choses to proceed with the pregnancy and won't be legally bound to anything, with perhaps the mother not being allowed to tell anyone (including her child) who the father is - o that the effect will be that the guy simply isn't a father in any sense but biological.

What does gaf think?
 
G

Gabyskra

Banned
It's her body.

It's not his.

The man has the freedom not to get his partner pregnant.

If he does, then he better man up and be responsible.
 
H

Husker86

Member
It may be "unfair" but too many single Moms would be left fully supporting the child (abortion isn't a consideration for some people).

If men could just say "no thanks"...I don't know, it just wouldn't work.
 
P

pnjtony

Member
You're coming from the point of view that most guys won't want the burden and responsibility. What about the flip side? will men have power to force the woman to carry the child to term?
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
Gabyskra said:
It's her body.

It's not his.

The man has the freedom not to get his partner pregnant.

If he does, then he better man up and be responsible.
Click to expand...
It being her body means that it's up to her to decide whether or not she gets an abortion, I'm in no way trying to take away that - it's a right that should always be in the womans hands.

I'm merely trying to balance a imbalanced and outdated system, we live in a modern world where we with all the protections and measures available have successfully been able to seperate the act of sex from the decision to become a parent. Anyone that becomes a parent chooses to become one by not utilizing the tools available for them (except in certain freak cases where they simply find out they're pregnant way too late).
 
T

TheLastCandle

Member
A man should be able to tell his partner how he feels about the situation and how he wants to go about it, but ultimately it is up to the woman on if she keeps it or not. Her body after all.
 
B

brain_stew

Member
Shanadeus said:
It being her body means that it's up to her to decide whether or not she gets an abortion, I'm in no way trying to take away that - it's a right that should always be in the womans hands.

I'm merely trying to balance a imbalanced and outdated system, we live in a modern world where we with all the protections and measures available have successfully been able to seperate the act of sex from the decision to become a parent. Anyone that becomes a parent chooses to become one by not utilizing the tools available for them (except in certain freak cases where they simply find out they're pregnant way too late).
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's really not the case........at all.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
pnjtony said:
You're coming from the point of view that most guys won't want the burden and responsibility. What about the flip side? will men have power to force the woman to carry the child to term?
Click to expand...
I covered that as well, and you cannot force a woman to carry on a pregnancy. It'd break a fundamental right of the woman (control over her body), so I am sorry for all the men that want a child but ends up without one. The least we can do is to try to give a little power to the man.
 
H

hiro4

Member
TheLastCandle said:
A man should be able to tell his partner how he feels about the situation and how he wants to go about it, but ultimately it is up to the woman on if she keeps it or not. Her body after all.
Click to expand...

This.
It also depends on the relationship between the man and woman.

But just like a man cannot force a woman to abort, a woman should not force a man to become a father.
 
K

Koomaster

Member
Gabyskra said:
It's her body.

It's not his.

The man has the freedom not to get his partner pregnant.

If he does, then he better man up and be responsible.
Click to expand...
The woman also has the power not to get pregnant as well. It takes BOTH partners. She could simply not have sex with the guy if he chooses not to wear a condom. Women also have forms of birth control at their disposal as well as the morning after pill. Where is the woman's responsibility?

I agree with OP, men should not have to provide financially for a child they did not want if the woman chooses to carry forth with the pregnancy. It's unfair for the woman to have power in both situations, whether to keep the baby or not.
 
T

Tacitus_

Member
hiro4 said:
This.
It also depends on the relationship between the man and woman.

But just like a man cannot force a woman to abort, a woman should not force a man to become a father.
Click to expand...

Are you arguing that there would be some liability for the woman if she lies about being on the pill or pokes holes in condoms?
Because that's the only way they can 'force' a man to become a father.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
hiro4 said:
This.
It also depends on the relationship between the man and woman.

But just like a man cannot force a woman to abort, a woman should not force a man to become a father.
Click to expand...
I guess that sums up everything I said so far, and I agree with you.

Yeah, that's really not the case........at all.
Click to expand...
With condoms and other birth controlls in additon to the one thing the embryo can't beat, abortion, I don't see how that's not the case.

Please enlighten me.

Tacitus_ said:
Are you arguing that there would be some liability for the woman if she lies about being on the pill or pokes holes in condoms?
Because that's the only way they can 'force' a man to become a father.
Click to expand...
They force the man to become a father if they also do not get an abortion.
And while it's 100% up to her whether or not to get one, it should also be up to the man if he wants to shoulder the burden and responsibilities fatherhood entails.

There should of course be communication, so that the woman is aware of the man leaving in case she gets pregnant and decides to keep it way before she gets pregnant - so that she can be extra cautious if she feels that an abortion is wrong but at the same time doesn't want to be a single mother.
 
I

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
Gabyskra said:
It's her body.

It's not his.

The man has the freedom not to get his partner pregnant.

If he does, then he better man up and be responsible.
Click to expand...

Doesn't work like that, they had a big thing on the radio bout this the other day. Dudes where in agreement with their girls that she would use the pill etc and if that didn't work they would abort. Problem was the chicks stopped taking their pill or didn't follow through with their side of the agreement. So now you have a dude that didn't want a kid, who was having sex with the assumption that the chick didn't want a kid either and then he gets trapped or basically fucked over. Why should he have to man up? dudes been totally fucked over.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy said:
Doesn't work like that, they had a big thing on the radio bout this the other day. Dudes where in agreement with their girls that she would use the pill etc and if that didn't work they would abort. Problem was the chicks stopped taking their pill or didn't follow through with their side of the agreement. So now you have a dude that didn't want a kid, who was having sex with the assumption that the chick didn't want a kid either and then he gets trapped or basically fucked over. Why should he have to man up? dudes been totally fucked over.
Click to expand...

Wow, why would you ever do shit like that to your partner? You must be totally fucked in the head if you think that would ever be a good idea. People sometimes...
 
I

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy

it's 4th of July in my asshole
ClosingADoor said:
Wow, why would you ever do shit like that to your partner? You must be totally fucked in the head if you think that would ever be a good idea. People sometimes...
Click to expand...

Well there was a lot of fucked up shit going on, dude knocked up his chick and was all happy bout being a dad and everything, started all the planning for the baby.......... chick rang him and told him to organise an abortion. Dude's pretty much have no say whatsoever.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy said:
Well there was a lot of fucked up shit going on, dude knocked up his chick and was all happy bout being a dad and everything, started all the planning for the baby.......... chick rang him and told him to organise an abortion. Dude's pretty much have no say whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Which is horrible, I wish there was a solution to that situation.
But at least we can fix the reversed situation with minimal effort.

Tacitus_ said:
Are you arguing that there would be some liability for the woman if she lies about being on the pill or pokes holes in condoms?
Because that's the only way they can 'force' a man to become a father.
Click to expand...
I hope you're not suggesting physical violence.
 
S

Skiptastic

Member
hiro4 said:
But just like a man cannot force a woman to abort, a woman should not force a man to become a father.
Click to expand...

Or you could just take precaution to avoid getting into that "trap" in the first place.
 
N

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
IMO you don't get to walk away. so no. If you happen to have a child you don't get to choose if you want to be it's father or not, you simply are.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
Shanadeus said:
Right now it seems to me that the woman has absolute control over whether or not she will become a mother, as well as over whether the partner contributing to the pregnancy will become a father. If she does not want a kid then she can just get an abortion, and she won't be burdened with a child.

But if she wants to keep the child, then the father of the child is obliged to at the very least support it economically (do correct me if I'm wrong as this is what I have an issue with) - no matter what he personally wants. He is always at the mercy of the female, who can decide whether or not he'll be the father regardless of whether he wants to become one or not (I am sorry for the gaffers here who've wanted a child but been denied when your partner got an abortion.)

This is a completely imbalanced and unjust system in my honest opinion.

While we cannot do anything against the last situation I mentioned above, where the mother wants an abortion and the father wants to keep the child, we can at least shift some power away from the mother to the father when he does not want a child yet the mother choses to have one by not aborting. The father should be able to opt out of parenthood if he's informed her in due time for an abortion that he is not interested in being a father, so that the mother will still have time to get an abortion in case she does not want to end up as a single mother.

He will be absolved of all responsibilities if the mother choses to proceed with the pregnancy and won't be legally bound to anything, with perhaps the mother not being allowed to tell anyone (including her child) who the father is - o that the effect will be that the guy simply isn't a father in any sense but biological.

What does gaf think?
Click to expand...

Its my belief that it takes two to tango, but it is her body thats being affected. Its not a fair situation but life isn't fair. A man DOES HAVE A CHOICE in being a father. Its engaging in sex in the first place and taking necessary precautions.
 
H

hiro4

Member
Tacitus_ said:
Are you arguing that there would be some liability for the woman if she lies about being on the pill or pokes holes in condoms?
Because that's the only way they can 'force' a man to become a father.
Click to expand...

Honestly? Yes.
If a woman lies and deceits she should suffer the consequences IMO.
She should not be able to drag someone down, just because she "felt like it".

Also impregnating a woman doesn't make a man a father, only by taking up the responsibilities of caring for the child (and woman) a man can become a father. But that is how I see it.

Skiptastic said:
Or you could just take precaution to avoid getting into that "trap" in the first place.
Click to expand...

If only we'd live in an ideal world where we can trust each other unconditionally.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
Teetris said:
IMO you don't get to walk away. so no. If you happen to have a child you don't get to choose if you want to be it's father or not, you simply are.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on that point, when the child has been born then you have squandered away your right to leave the responsibility and the childs right to a father is more important.

What I am suggesting is that the father leaves during the pregnancy if all conditions are fulfilled - that he's informed her of his non-desire to be a father and that he's informed her that he will not support her or her child in case she decides not to get an abortion way in time before the last date you may abort.
 
S

ShinobiFist

Banned
Skiptastic said:
Or you could just take precaution to avoid getting into that "trap" in the first place.
Click to expand...
If people had the ability to see into future, than yeah. But in the real world people don't have such ability's.
 
T

Tacitus_

Member
Shanadeus said:
I hope you're not suggesting physical violence.
Click to expand...

How'd you gleame that out of my post?
I'm just wondering how exactly a woman goes 'forcing' a man to become a father - since sex is usually a mutual decision and contracept use is usually decided beforehand.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
SuperBowser said:
so what happens when he takes necessary precautions and they fail? contraception is not perfect.
Click to expand...
Well, what does the female do?
If she doesn't want a child she just gets an abortion, if she wants it she doesn't have to do anything.

If the man doesn't want a child, it's up to the mother whether he'll get it or not. If he wants it, it's still up to the mother whether he'll get it or not.

There's a clear imbalance and if there was anything we could do against the second situation for the man that wouldn't violate the womans control over her body then I'd be all for it. We can fortunately fix the first situation for the man though, implementing something along the lines of what I and others have said in this thread.


Tacitus_ said:
How'd you gleame that out of my post?
I'm just wondering how exactly a woman goes 'forcing' a man to become a father - since sex is usually a mutual decision and contracept use is usually decided beforehand.
Click to expand...
If they agree beforehand on using pills and an abortion if the pills fail then she can easily force the man to become a father by either lying about the pills or break their mutual agreement to get an abortion and instead birth the child.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
SuperBowser said:
so what happens when he takes necessary precautions and they fail? contraception is not perfect.
Click to expand...


Thats the risk you take when you have sex. Take responsibility for your action (or inaction). Personal accountability is something thats lost in today's world.
 
H

hiro4

Member
Shanadeus said:
I agree with you on that point, when the child has been born then you have squandered away your right to leave the responsibility and the childs right to a father is more important.
Click to expand...

While I'm not in total agreement with you there.
A father figure is important yes. But that doesn't mean that it should be the biological father.
If the biological father doesn't want to, how can he give the child the unconditional love it needs?

What I am suggesting is that the father leaves during the pregnancy if all conditions are fulfilled - that he's informed her of his non-desire to be a father and that he's informed her that he will not support her or her child in case she decides not to get an abortion way in time before the last date you may abort.
Click to expand...

I think in a way this is already the case legally in the Netherlands. I'm not sure about this, so don't pin me down on it. If a couple aren't married or have any other legal agreements about children, the male has to actively "acknowledge" the child to be recognized as a parent.

Don't know the precise rules, since I did it without hesitation :lol
 
H

hiro4

Member
Teh Hamburglar said:
Thats the risk you take when you have sex. Take responsibility for your action (or inaction). Personal accountability is something thats lost in today's world.
Click to expand...

Sure.
I agree with you there.

But how far should the responsibility go?
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
hiro4 said:
While I'm not in total agreement with you there.
A father figure is important yes. But that doesn't mean that it should be the biological father.
If the biological father doesn't want to, how can he give the child the unconditional love it needs?
Click to expand...
If he's taken such a time to leave the relationship then he probably want the kid subconsciously. But I agree with you that a hating father can be worse than an absent father.



hiro4 said:
I think in a way this is already the case legally in the Netherlands. I'm not sure about this, so don't pin me down on it. If a couple aren't married or have any other legal agreements about children, the male has to actively "acknowledge" the child to be recognized as a parent.

Don't know the precise rules, since I did it without hesitation :lol
Click to expand...
That sounds like a great system, that's pretty much what I'm talking about.
 
T

tubgirlsplumber

Banned
Teh Hamburglar said:
Thats the risk you take when you have sex. Take responsibility for your action (or inaction). Personal accountability is something thats lost in today's world.
Click to expand...

By that same measure then, if the girl wants the baby, knowing that the guy doesn't, she should take 100% of the burden (including financial), in bringing it up.
 
S

Shanadeus

Banned
Teh Hamburglar said:
Thats the risk you take when you have sex. Take responsibility for your action (or inaction). Personal accountability is something thats lost in today's world.
Click to expand...
It's the risk you take when you have sex today and is male. If ycou are a female then you have no risk of having a child, you can in all but freak cases chose to have an abortion if you're not interested in havin a child.

And how things are today has no bearing on how things will be tomorrow, we should always strive for a more equal and just society. Giving the man a little more power, without even touching the womans right to her body, is a no brainer.
 
G

goomba

Banned
I fully agree with the OP.

Took a paternity scare for me to realise this.

There is no reason the law of equal protection for everyone shouldnt apply with this.

Personally I think its because of pro lifers. I think its even more unfair on the baby being born that the father did not want them. What a great start to life.

Reproducing should require a signed legal document before the father is liable for the womans choice.
 
Meus Renaissance

Meus Renaissance

Member
Shanadeus said:
Right now it seems to me that the woman has absolute control over whether or not she will become a mother, as well as over whether the partner contributing to the pregnancy will become a father. If she does not want a kid then she can just get an abortion, and she won't be burdened with a child.

But if she wants to keep the child, then the father of the child is obliged to at the very least support it economically (do correct me if I'm wrong as this is what I have an issue with) - no matter what he personally wants. He is always at the mercy of the female, who can decide whether or not he'll be the father regardless of whether he wants to become one or not (I am sorry for the gaffers here who've wanted a child but been denied when your partner got an abortion.)

This is a completely imbalanced and unjust system in my honest opinion.

While we cannot do anything against the last situation I mentioned above, where the mother wants an abortion and the father wants to keep the child, we can at least shift some power away from the mother to the father when he does not want a child yet the mother choses to have one by not aborting. The father should be able to opt out of parenthood if he's informed her in due time for an abortion that he is not interested in being a father, so that the mother will still have time to get an abortion in case she does not want to end up as a single mother.

He will be absolved of all responsibilities if the mother choses to proceed with the pregnancy and won't be legally bound to anything, with perhaps the mother not being allowed to tell anyone (including her child) who the father is - o that the effect will be that the guy simply isn't a father in any sense but biological.

What does gaf think?
Click to expand...

You know my position on abortion but I don't think it's actually feasible to change the role of the mother in this case. The only alternative is for there to be state involvement or give the father an equal voice in the decision making (and if they both have different views, then state involvement again?).

Instead, I think this confusion you've pointed out only highlights the many arguments of unfairness and moral outrage that surrounds which parent is ultimately given the most authority. I was reading an article this morning on the BBC which stated there was no scientific evidence that embryos feel pain before 24 weeks - the current limit of the age to which abortions can happen here in the UK and other nations. Instead of discussing who can decide to terminate that pregnancy, either by pills or literally clipping off body parts of the child in the mothers womb, there should be an honest chat about the priorities of people when it comes to abortion. Are they thinking about using this as a get out of jail card? Or do they consider the state of their child beforehand? The first thought that comes to most is about themselves and what they feel comfortable with; I wish people took it to heart regardless of what they choose, that is my main complaint.

The sheer fear people have in having sex with a partner without contraception emphasises the fact that sex is inherently a reproductive act, or as I like to think about it, something which should be done with a loving partner. If condoms and contraceptions disappeared tomorrow you would at least have an introduction of a more responsible attitude. If you have sex then at least take responsibility of the outcome. The idea that everyone knows that it can end in pregnancy and yet still have a shocked innocent face at the end of it maybe, just maybe, is vindictive of the mindset of our society when it comes to sexual freedom. There are some animals who value mating/sex more than we do.
 
E

Escape Goat

Member
hiro4 said:
Sure.
I agree with you there.

But how far should the responsibility go?
Click to expand...

what do you mean? If you have sex you should be prepared to accept the responsibility of fatherhood.

I'm against abortion. Its an easy way out and you're making someone else take the consequences (the would-be son/daughter). But as it stands now abortion is legal. And for better or worse, females carry our young so its her decision ultimately. If the males carried the baby then the father would have the last say. Its not perfect system but its an imperfect world.

Giving the man a little more power, without even touching the womans right to her body, is a no brainer.
Click to expand...

And what power would that be?
 
S

ShinobiFist

Banned
Teh Hamburglar said:
Thats the risk you take when you have sex. Take responsibility for your action (or inaction). Personal accountability is something thats lost in today's world.
Click to expand...
True that, but in reality people are scum. You expected them to be 100% with you, but that's not usually the case.
 
P

panda21

Member
so if you think this through it leads to forced abortions against the woman's will? unless you just mean not having to pay child support
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Shanadeus said:
What does gaf think?
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight ... you feel in the event a dad wants to 'opt out', we should force women to chose between an abortion or going it alone as their only two options?

:lol oh gaf
 
B

Buckethead

Banned
Don't have sex unless your prepared to have a child with your partner.

There, I saved everyone mass amounts of drama with a little common sense and arrogance.
 
G

goomba

Banned
Raistlin said:
Let me get this straight ... you feel in the event a dad wants to 'opt out', we should force women to chose between an abortion or going it alone as their only two options?

:lol oh gaf
Click to expand...

Either that or take the womans choice away, this is about equality under law.
 
S

Skiptastic

Member
ShinobiFist said:
If people had the ability to see into future, than yeah. But in the real world people don't have such ability's.
Click to expand...

It doesn't take a Nostradamus to know that if you start going in bare, your likelihood of dealing with these issues increases exponentially.

hiro4 said:
But how far should the responsibility go?
Click to expand...

It should go as far as financially. You can't force a biological father to be part of his child's life, but you can force him to support the child financially.

By the way, courts have upheld that men can be treated differently than women in this manner.
 
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