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Chris Hecker's "Are Achievements Harmful?" GDC talk posted online

X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
One of the more interesting lectures from this past year's GDC. At the bottom he embeds the powerpoint presentation synced with the lecture audio, so it's pretty much what you would've seen and heard at the actual presentation. Do note it's a long one (69+ minutes)!

http://chrishecker.com/Achievements_Considered_Harmful

I waded into the debate on game achievements with my lecture at the 2010 Game Developers Conference entitled Achievements Considered Harmful?, with a strong emphasis on the "?". Since the game industry seems to be careening head first into a future of larding points and medals and cute titles on players for just starting up a video game, I wanted to raise awareness of the large body of research studying the impact on motivation from various types of rewards. Trying to be "fair and balanced", I delved into what the data show and what they don't show.

Sadly, there is a contentious debate amongst psychologists about how rewards affect motivation, and I spend a bunch of time in the talk discussing this debate. Psychology is at the soft end of science, to put it mildly, and so it's easy for people—including academics—to have an agenda or opinion and interpret the data in a way that backs up that agenda or opinion. This is human nature, of course, and confirmation bias is everywhere in life, but reading some of the papers reminds me more of a schoolyard yelling contest than of peer reviewed research.

To hack my way out of the thicket, I focused on the two results that both sides seem to begrudgingly agree are true.

For interesting tasks,

1. Tangible, expected, contingent rewards reduce free-choice intrinsic motivation, and
2. Verbal, unexpected, informational feedback, increases free-choice and self-reported intrinsic motivation.

I define all these terms in the slides below, and I'll fill out this page more as time goes on.
Click to expand...
Towards the end of the talk, I outline a potential Nightmare Scenario based on all the implications of the research going the wrong way for games:

1. make an intrinsically interesting game, congratulations!
2. use extrinsic motivators to make your game better
3. destroy intrinsic motivation to play your game
4. metrics fetishism pushes you towards designs where extrinsic motivation works
5. BONUS: women lose even more intrinsic motivation than men do given extrinsic motivation!

Who knows whether things will actually go this way, but it seems clear to me that the potential is there, and so we should look into this more instead of blindly moving forward.

In the talk I also address a bunch of the Common Buts:

* Players like them!
* Our data shows they work!
* We make lots of money!
* Just ignore them if you don't like them!
* They show players different ways of playing!

I go through each of these in turn, trying to address the core of the point.

Finally, I talk a bit about how to Minimize the Damage, if you're forced to have achievements and rewards in your games. As you may know, I'm working on an indie spy game called SpyParty, and since some platform holders currently require you to give away achievements to pass certification, I gathered a list of ways of implementing rewards so they do less harm:

* Don’t make a big fuss about them.
* Use unexpected rewards.
* Use absolute, not relative measures.
* Use endogenous rewards.
* Make them informational, not controlling.

Again, the data shows even following this advice reduces intrinsic motivation, but it's at least something you can do. I talk about this in more detail in the slides below.
Click to expand...
 
E

ezekial45

Banned
When it gets to the point where people flat out refuse to play a game that doesn't have achievements/trophies (Valkyria Chronicles), then i'd say yes.
 
D

dralla

Member
i think it depends on the game. just an example, they felt horribly out of place in heavy rain. but for something like geometry wars they make perfect sense.
 
S

sn00zer

Member
Achievements are the biggest singleplayer atmosphere killers ever...theyre fine for multiplayer modes or more "gamey" games
 
N

N4Us

Member
If you buy that Avatar game just to get 1000G than I find that more funny than "harmful to the industry".
 
I

Indeed

Member
Achievements are the best new feature of this generation. Thank god SC2 has them!!

in before not sure if serious
 
N

Narag

Member
I'm a fan of them but prefer they're used to supplement/facilitate later playthroughs like what was done in Mass Effect. I wish there were more zero point "achievements" one would actively try to avoid to spare yourself said mark of shame. Blitz: The League had a few of those.

sn00zer said:
Achievements are the biggest singleplayer atmosphere killers ever...theyre fine for multiplayer modes or more "gamey" games
Click to expand...

Disagree on that point. Nothing worse than someone whoring out an achievement to bring down the team.
 
S

soco

Member
i prefer achievements to some of the reward schemes of other games as wasting hours to unlock items. with achievements it's easier to overlook, but say it's a super powerful weapon or something, i might want to do that.

i hate special endings that you have to do some crazy unknown shit to unlock.
 
I

I <3 Memes

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Oh man, heads are going to blow when I release the project I'm working on. :p
Click to expand...

Is it a game based entirely on achievements? Or perhaps achievements for browsing and posting on GAF?
 
G

Gravijah

Member
It's cool when I get an achievement, sometimes I go for the fun ones, but usually I don't care and I've never 1000/1000 or Platinum'd a game.
 
D

DTLIONS1013

Member
I <3 Memes said:
Is it a game based entirely on achievements? Or perhaps achievements for browsing and posting on GAF?
Click to expand...

I remember a flash game based on achievements, I don't remember what it's called
 
consoul

consoul

Member
Remember when you could feel the satisfaction of closure just by finishing a game?

Now your reward for finishing a game is the permanent scar of an achievement/trophy list on 67% because you missed a hidden pickup and didn't play the half-baked online component in the two months before the rest of the world gave up on it.
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Oh man, heads are going to blow when I release the project I'm working on. :p
Click to expand...
Is it a game where the only goal is to unlock as many achievements as possible?

Edit: damn, beaten
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
I recall someone mentioning that the reason they removed lan play from Bnet 2.0 was to make sure no one could cheat achievements or boost on ladders. That it was in Blizzard's "Design".

That was the moment where I realized what achievements became. No longer were they just something little slapped on, they were serious business and people were willing to sacrifice decade old features for game score.
 
J

Jangaroo

Always the tag bridesmaid, never the tag bride.
DTLIONS1013 said:
I remember a flash game based on achievements, I don't remember what it's called
Click to expand...
It had the word Elephant in it. There's two games I think. They're amazing.
 
LabouredSubterfuge

LabouredSubterfuge

Member
I <3 Memes said:
Is it a game based entirely on achievements? Or perhaps achievements for browsing and posting on GAF?
Click to expand...

:lol :lol

SECRET ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!

15G '...Like A Book'

You have unwittingly responded to one of Astrolad's finely tuned trolling comments and now everyone is laughing at you.
 
C

Cynar

Member
sn00zer said:
Achievements are the biggest singleplayer atmosphere killers ever...theyre fine for multiplayer modes or more "gamey" games
Click to expand...
Wrong, other way around. Achievements are great, one of the best things this gen has along with party chat.

P.S. Turn off the notification if you think it kills atmosphere

shintoki said:
I recall someone mentioning that the reason they removed lan play from Bnet 2.0 was to make sure no one could cheat achievements or boost on ladders. That it was in Blizzard's "Design".

That was the moment where I realized what achievements became. No longer were they just something little slapped on, they were serious business and people were willing to sacrifice decade old features for game score.
Click to expand...

This is bullshit, they removed it so they could sell more copies. :p

ChronicleX said:
Seconded. Their introduction to gaming ruined my love. I still play games but I don't give a shit if I get achievements or not. I will not go out of my way to grind stupidly for +5 points next to my name or play only for them +5 points. I play for fun, when its no longer fun I stop playing.

Achievements are an excuse that allows dev's to over extend their games replay value because "unless you kill 1 million poo snakes you have not completed the game!". BULL FUCKING SHIT.
Click to expand...

I don't know about you but I only go out of the way if I enjoy the game a lot and want to go that extra mile. Perhaps you have OCD if you feel the need to have to 1000/1000 or platinum every game? They don't really take away from anything but just add to an already enjoyable experience in this hobby of ours.
 
C

ChronicleX

Banned
Diablos said:
Achievements/trophies are one of the dumbest things that ever happened to gaming.
Click to expand...

Seconded. Their introduction to gaming ruined my love. I still play games but I don't give a shit if I get achievements or not. I will not go out of my way to grind stupidly for +5 points next to my name or play only for them +5 points. I play for fun, when its no longer fun I stop playing.

Achievements are an excuse that allows dev's to over extend their games replay value because "unless you kill 1 million poo snakes you have not completed the game!". BULL FUCKING SHIT.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
For some games they work. Score attack games, sports games, online multiplayer games. Where they don't work is in most single player games where atmosphere is important. If Shadow of the Colossus had some message popping up when you killed a colossus saying you'd won a trophy, it would have been...not good. In games like Mass Effect, Dead Space, it takes me out of the game every single time. I'm sure it will only get worse, with Kinect, Twitter, all that shit. We will soon have a little window popping up with your friends showing you their balls on Kinect and an abusive tweet every time they get an achievement.
 
M

Minamu

Member
I find it more and more difficult to enjoy a game these days because I can't really play them the way I want to. I don't have OCD officially, but thanks to achievements, it certainly feels like I do. Virtual points you can't spend, shouldn't dictate how I play the game, I should. And I can usually only do that on handhelds and older consoles (or games I've already maxed out the achievements in :lol) these days.

It sucks so much ass, it's ridiculous.
 
K

KevinCow

Banned
I am almost completely neutral to the concept of Achievements. I do the ones that sound fun to do and ignore them otherwise.

Though what really blows my mind is when people complain about an achievement being particularly hard or time consuming. Like, I could understand if it was something that was actually keeping game content away from you, but if you run around GTAIV to shoot all the pigeons for nothing but an achievement, it's your own damn fault for being so obsessive. I don't understand what could possibly compel someone to do something that they find extremely unenjoyable just for a little number by their name to go up.
 
C

Cynar

Member
Ushojax said:
For some games they work. Score attack games, sports games, online multiplayer games. Where they don't work is in most single player games where atmosphere is important. If Shadow of the Colossus had some message popping up when you killed a colossus saying you'd won a trophy, it would have been...not good. In games like Mass Effect, Dead Space, it takes me out of the game every single time.
Click to expand...

Good thing you can turn off the notification then :D

KevinCow said:
I am almost completely neutral to the concept of Achievements. I do the ones that sound fun to do and ignore them otherwise.

Though what really blows my mind is when people complain about an achievement being particularly hard or time consuming. Like, I could understand if it was something that was actually keeping game content away from you, but if you run around GTAIV to shoot all the pigeons for nothing but an achievement, it's your own damn fault for being so obsessive. I don't understand what could possibly compel someone to do something that they find extremely unenjoyable just for a little number by their name to go up.
Click to expand...

It's ridiculous some of the complaints people have, I swear it's some form of OCD :lol
 
K

K.Jack

Knowledge is power, guard it well
Narag said:
I'm a fan of them but prefer they're used to supplement/facilitate later playthroughs like what was done in Mass Effect.
Click to expand...
Why haven't more (any?) developers copied this scheme?

Mass Effect is the only game, in which I've ever actively sought to gain the cheesements.
 
T

TheChewyWaffles

Member
I love achievements. Coolest thing to happen to gaming this gen. They don't detract from gameplay and you can safely ignore them if you want. If you're a completionist or just want to talk shit with your friends about getting a hard achievement, they're there to boost your e-peen. Hell, one of the coolest 200/200's to get for XBLA games early this gen was in Geometry Wars. I got quite a few online kudos for that one. Did that make my life complete? No. Did it give me a smile? Sure.
 
T

TheChewyWaffles

Member
ChronicleX said:
Seconded. Their introduction to gaming ruined my love. I still play games but I don't give a shit if I get achievements or not. I will not go out of my way to grind stupidly for +5 points next to my name or play only for them +5 points. I play for fun, when its no longer fun I stop playing.

Achievements are an excuse that allows dev's to over extend their games replay value because "unless you kill 1 million poo snakes you have not completed the game!". BULL FUCKING SHIT.
Click to expand...

Complete straw man. I never see reviews, either professional or consumer-written, that claim a game is "done" when you get the final achievement.
 
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