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AAK · Jul 17, 2011

During the Japan expo in France Kayane got to do an interview with Harada about various things and one thing she asked him about is whether or not they will implement GGPO for their future games or not. His reply basically entails how GGPO doesn't necessary work in optimum conditions for games like Tekken and Soul Calibur because of the way they are designed. You can skip to 6:20 of the video where they start to talk about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymYRnT-yFNo&t=6m20s

Well, the opic of whether to use GGPO often occurs with not only Tekken but Soul Calibur. just because you use GGPO, doesn't mean everything will get better. And some people who don't know much about the technology of GGPO, tend to look at it as a form of magic that if you just put in GGPO, everything goes perfect but it's not that easy.

There's a big misunderstand about GGPO, For example it's like saying, "OK, maybe if you have the Tekken team create Soul Calibur the game will be better" or vice versa. Also, another thing that can be said about Tekken and Soul Calibur is that the key data that's transferred over the internet when you're playing against another player the share volume of that is about three times higher than another fighting game. The size, the speed of the network, and the data consumption is so wide. In some countries they still use narrowband while Japan and Asia uses broadband and GGPO is too strong for a narrowband. So what's more important is the technology to compress data size. So rather than just saying something about using GGPO, we're focusing more on how to pack the key data that's transferred.

Via SDTekken.com

sixteen-bit · Jul 17, 2011

I hope this isn't a preemptive "sorry our netcode is shit guys, we'll try harder next time" for TTT2/SCV

zlatko · Jul 17, 2011

I believe the same sort of thing has been said by Ono when it comes to fighters that use 3D models and backgrounds in general. There's just so much going on that GGPO can't handle it, at least not the way it is so they can't just dump it in and go from there.

GGPO works for 2D fighters, but Seth Killian said it isn't impossible for fighters with 3D assets to use GGPO, but it would involve some serious work/retooling of the GGPO formula. S.Kill has been avid supporter to Capcom about GGPO since he started, and we've just now started to see the fruits of his labor in a few games, and most notably the upcoming SF3 online edition.

I would love to see someone buy up GGPO and put money behind it to push it forward more so we can start seeing it in as many games as possible so that fighting games start getting the online treatment they deserve.

alstein · Jul 17, 2011

Might be a problem with console RAM size as well. 3S and GGPO don't play well either.

That said, VF probably had the best netcode of any fighter this gen in terms of avoiding game-altering lag, so having a 3d fighter with good netcode is quite possible (VF has helped by a generous input buffer, something Namco games need to start having)

notworksafe · Jul 17, 2011

GGPO (in its current form) won't work well on newer fighters until consoles get more RAM. It just requires memory that current gen machines don't have.

And before someone brings up the DBZ game, those games have much less data and inputs to track, which is why GGPO can work with it without issue.

Muchi Muchi Pink · Jul 17, 2011

alstein said:
That said, VF probably had the best netcode of any fighter this gen in terms of avoiding game-altering lag, so having a 3d fighter with good netcode is quite possible (VF has helped by a generous input buffer, something Namco games need to start having)

Are you referring to 3D fighters or fighters in general? If it's the second, I would say blazblue had the best netcode.

entremet · Jul 17, 2011

I thought we knew this. Wasn't this the reason SFIV and MvC3 didn't use GGPO? The CPS2/3 fighters are have a much smaller data blueprint than 3d fighters. That's obvious.

TreIII · Jul 17, 2011

See, the only problem I have is that a game like Skullgirls is using GGPO, when it stands to have literally THOUSANDS of frames of animation to account for. Not to mention that it uses 3D models as a base under those 2D sprites.

The main difference is that the game probably was made with the netcode in mind and has pretty generous buffering. Dunno what Atlus and SNKP stand to be doing with KOFXIII, but hopefully they can find a means to get something similar to how ASW and BB + AH were able to handle things.

Oichi · Jul 17, 2011

TreIII said:
See, the only problem I have is that a game like Skullgirls is using GGPO, when it stands to have literally THOUSANDS of frames of animation to account for. Not to mention that it uses 3D models as a base under those 2D sprites.

The main difference is that the game probably was made with the netcode in mind and has pretty generous buffering. Dunno what Atlus and SNKP stand to be doing with KOFXIII, but hopefully they can find a means to get something similar to how ASW and BB + AH were able to handle things.

You're only thinking of the character models, there are a lot of other things in games like SF4, Tekken and Soulcalibur which need to be calculated, such as the dust effects when a hadoken pops up, or the snow tracks in Tekken 6's stage when characters fall.

With GGPO's rollbacks, all of those need to be recalculated as well. In 2D games, background interaction is minimal (in Blazblue it's also minimal) so it's much easier to rollback everything than in a 3D game.

Sixfortyfive · Jul 17, 2011

zlatko said:
I believe the same sort of thing has been said by Ono when it comes to fighters that use 3D models and backgrounds in general. There's just so much going on that GGPO can't handle it, at least not the way it is so they can't just dump it in and go from there.

It's not a matter of GGPO not being able to handle 2D/3D. That doesn't make a damn bit of difference to GGPO. If anything, it's a matter of the console not being able to handle resource-intensive visuals and GGPO at the same time. Which is possible.

Oichi said:
You're only thinking of the character models, there are a lot of other things in games like SF4, Tekken and Soulcalibur which need to be calculated, such as the dust effects when a hadoken pops up, or the snow tracks in Tekken 6's stage when characters fall.

With GGPO's rollbacks, all of those need to be recalculated as well. In 2D games, background interaction is minimal (in Blazblue it's also minimal) so it's much easier to rollback everything than in a 3D game.

Unless you're talking about arena damage that actually affects gameplay (like obstacles getting in the way of the fight or something)... absolutely none of that has to be sent over the network at all in the first place. Why would they need to be recalculated?

notworksafe · Jul 17, 2011

Sixfortyfive said:
It's not a matter of GGPO not being able to handle 2D/3D. That doesn't make a damn bit of difference to GGPO. If anything, it's a matter of the console not being able to handle resource-intensive visuals and GGPO at the same time.

Yeah, the quality of the graphics mean nothing to GGPO. It's only cares about what is happening in the game. Character animations, projectiles, special effects, etc

GGPO has to keep track of all of these in many savestates and consoles right now just don't have the power to both play games like these and have enough memory to keep enough savestates for roll backs.

Oichi · Jul 17, 2011

Sixfortyfive said:
Unless you're talking about arena damage that actually affects gameplay (like obstacles getting in the way of the fight or something)... absolutely none of that has to be sent over the network at all in the first place. Why would they need to be recalculated?

Yes, I'm also talking about those (as well as effects that don't affect gameplay). Tekken has breakable walls and floors, Soulcalibur also has walls that can be damaged and broken through, so they definitely need to be recalculated. Especially for Soulcalibur since a broken wall means a ringout, which means a round won or lost.

SkylineRKR · Jul 17, 2011

I must say that I had some good online games in Tekken 6 post-patch. There was always an unplayable game inbetween but on the whole my experience was okay. Better than SCIV and DoA4.

How ironic as it may be ('VF5 online is impossible') I too thought VF5 had the best netcode as far as 3D fighting goes.

Final Fight works well with GGPO. I figure SF3 is going to do so too. I think Seth speaks the truth, if GGPO was easy to implement in SFIV they likely would've done so.

GotchaForce · Jul 17, 2011

Count me in on believing all this is legit and Capcom/Namco isn't "out to get you and give you the worst experience possible". I've friends who couldn't believe MVC3's netcode wasn't as amazing as MVC2, even though MVC3 renders millions of polys and effects at a crazy fluid framerate and MVC2 fits on a freaking blue PS2 disc.

Sixfortyfive · Jul 17, 2011

SkylineRKR said:
How ironic as it may be ('VF5 online is impossible') I too thought VF5 had the best netcode as far as 3D fighting goes.

It was pretty funny how Sega was adamant that VF5 online would never be good enough to justify implementing, sheepishly caved into pressure to add it into the 360 version, and warned everyone that it probably wouldn't be perfect... but it turned out to be really good compared to the vast majority of fighters that have come and gone since then.

sixteen-bit · Jul 17, 2011

Sixfortyfive said:
It was pretty funny how Sega was adamant that VF5 online would never be good enough to justify implementing, sheepishly caved into pressure to add it into the 360 version, and warned everyone that it probably wouldn't be perfect... but it turned out to be really good compared to the vast majority of fighters that have come and gone since then.

Yep. Performance-wise it was great. If they added more features and allowed the player to change characters without exiting the online interface, it would be ideal.

grap3fruitman · Jul 17, 2011

_dementia said:
Yep. Performance-wise it was great. If they added more features and allowed the player to change characters without exiting the online interface, it would be ideal.

Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate did this back in 2004...

sixteen-bit · Jul 17, 2011

grap3fruitman said:
Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate did this back in 2004...

Yeah that was neat. In terms of features the DoA series wasn't matched until 2009, but it's easily been outclassed in connection quality by several games, one of which being VF5.

Teknoman · Jul 17, 2011

_dementia said:
I hope this isn't a preemptive "sorry our netcode is shit guys, we'll try harder next time" for TTT2/SCV

Same here.

TheSeks · Jul 17, 2011

GGPO works for 2D fighters because there's less data being sent in a packet for it's netcode. Is the person jumping? Great, tell the other person they're vertical and moving left/right/center of that. Are they entering a command? Great, tell the other person that command.

SCV/TTT/VF/DOA can't use that small packet size/netcode due to having DEPTH in the playfield to have to worry about. "Is he punching and I'm turning toward the back of the level? Then I need to tell the other player and our camera to follow me counter-clockwise while avoiding his punch."

GGPO is decent netcode, but it's not the end-all-be-all for the genre with the exception of 2D. I really wish people would stop trying to ram it down developers throats because GGPO even drops frames in some games/connections. :|

_dementia said:
but it's easily been outclassed in connection quality by several games, one of which being VF5.

LOLWUTPEAR.jpg You and I must have played different VF5's because any time I've had VF5 online sessions the netcode is passable, but no where near DOA's level.

As much as people want to hate and stamp their feet and go "LOL TITS AND ASS FIGHTER" DOA's netcode is THE BAR to meet for 3D fighting games and that came out in 2004. It's a shame they still haven't been matched.

ElFly · Jul 17, 2011

TheSeks said:
GGPO works for 2D fighters because there's less data being sent in a packet for it's netcode. Is the person jumping? Great, tell the other person they're vertical and moving left/right/center of that. Are they entering a command? Great, tell the other person that command.

SCV/TTT/VF/DOA can't use that small packet size/netcode due to having DEPTH in the playfield to have to worry about. "Is he punching and I'm turning toward the back of the level? Then I need to tell the other player and our camera to follow me counter-clockwise while avoiding his punch."

I thought GGPO just transmitted controller data.

I guess that the memory needed to save the state of a 3D game is more than a 2D (sprite based) game, but the problem isn't about the 3D playfield, but about the 3D models, and it's shared by capcom (with 2D gameplay, but 3D graphics) games.

Of course they could drop the resolution of a few textures and free some memory for savestates, but ain't gonna happen.

Sectus · Jul 17, 2011

The answer about GGPO doesn't make sense. The netcode in most fighting games should only ever send player input. Which is the same type of data which GGPO sends. The demanding thing with GGPO are the rollbacks (which could very well be extremely difficult to implement for Tekken or Soul Calibur). His answer is awfully close to "You see, the internet is just a bunch of pipes, and there isn't enough pipes for GGPO!"

Muchi Muchi Pink · Jul 17, 2011

I'm also sure Capcom said, they may use GGPO for SFxTK. They just have to built the game around it.

Edith: Well, okay sfxtk is 2D gameplay while Soul Calibur and Tekken is 3D. So you have more data.

Fersis · Jul 17, 2011

Sectus said:
The answer about GGPO doesn't make sense. The netcode in most fighting games should only ever send player input. Which is the same type of data which GGPO sends. The demanding thing with GGPO are the rollbacks (which could very well be extremely difficult to implement for Tekken or Soul Calibur). His answer is awfully close to "You see, the internet is just a bunch of pipes, and there isn't enough pipes for GGPO!"

I read somewhere that GGPO needs to synchronize both players game states locally too.
Thats why it takes more RAM and bandwidth than 'regular netcode.'
Meaning that Player A has his game state and Player B game state on his PS3 RAM.

Now ... remember that consoles have limited RAM and bandwidth so you have to plan ahead.
What the Tekken dood said sounds legit.

Sectus · Jul 17, 2011

I guess it would need to keep sending some kind of checksum based on the gameplay state to check for desyncs, but that should only add a tiny amount of bandwidth.

I find it very very weird Harada kept talking about bandwidth when the biggest challenge is rolling back and recalculating a gameplay situation. He seemed very unsure how he was gonna explain it anyway, considering the very long "ummmm" when he was gonna mention an example of how it wouldn't work out.

Ravidrath · Jul 17, 2011

Going to run this by Mike Z, but I'm skeptical.

While my game, Skullgirls, is 2D, we still had to restructure our gameplay code to make it entirely state-driven to accomodate GGPO. As far as I know, all GGPO does is send inputs over the internet, so you need to structure your code so that is enough to keep gameplay synced.

Given this, I see no reason why a 3D game would be any different. It may be harder to convert a 3D game to be state-driven, but what I'm really hearing is that they don't want to rework their engine.

Also... Namco Bandai had their new arcade DBZ game, which uses GGPO. So in effect they've already called bullshit on themselves.

Teknoman · Jul 17, 2011

Ravidrath said:
Going to run this by Mike Z, but I'm skeptical.

While my game, Skullgirls, is 2D, we still had to restructure our gameplay code to make it entirely state-driven to accomodate GGPO. As far as I know, all GGPO does is send inputs over the internet, so you need to structure your code so that is enough to keep gameplay synced.

Given this, I see no reason why a 3D game would be any different. It may be harder to convert a 3D game to be state-driven, but what I'm really hearing is that they don't want to rework their engine.

Also... Namco Bandai had their new arcade DBZ game, which uses GGPO. So in effect they've already called bullshit on themselves.

I wonder if anyone is going to call them on that?

The Take Out Bandit · Jul 17, 2011

So basically the hideously ugly new fighting games can't play nice with proven netcode because all the elements that make them so visually abhorrent are huge resource wasters?

Got it.

That's mainly a jab at Capcom this generation. Namco's game, ignoring Tekken 6, are generally very visually pretty.

Looking forward to Tekken Vs. Street Fighter.

grap3fruitman · Jul 17, 2011

Sectus said:
The answer about GGPO doesn't make sense. The netcode in most fighting games should only ever send player input. Which is the same type of data which GGPO sends.

Uh, no. Sending only the player input results in even people picking wrong characters on other people's ends. GGPO does a lot more synchronizing than that. That's the whole point of GGPO.

Sectus said:
The demanding thing with GGPO are the rollbacks (which could very well be extremely difficult to implement for Tekken or Soul Calibur). His answer is awfully close to "You see, the internet is just a bunch of pipes, and there isn't enough pipes for GGPO!"

No, it's not that. It's that there are a lot more things to keep track of and in sync in 3D games that GGPO isn't designed for. Heck, add a Z axis and that's a lot more data by itself that needs to be calculated.

The Take Out Bandit said:
So basically the hideously ugly new fighting games can't play nice with proven netcode because all the elements that make them so visually abhorrent are huge resource wasters?

Way to not read a single post in this thread.

Sectus · Jul 17, 2011

grap3fruitman said:
Uh, no. Sending only the player input results in even people picking wrong characters on other people's ends. GGPO does a lot more synchronizing than that. That's the whole point of GGPO.

Of course, there's no point in having the same netcode for character selection and ingame. For character selection you'd only need to send a single packet. Maybe I remember wrong, but from when I checked the GGPO library it only sends player input for normal gameplay.

grap3fruitman said:
No, it's not that. It's that there are a lot more things to keep track of and in sync in 3D games that GGPO isn't designed for. Heck, add a Z axis and that's a lot more data by itself that needs to be calculated.

I don't see how that would add more bandwidth. GGPO doesn't send updates of individual elements in the game. If it did, it would never have worked with emulators.

The Take Out Bandit · Jul 17, 2011

grap3fruitman said:
Way to not read a single post in this thread.

Nah, I read most of the posts in the thread and everything points to all the visual shenanigans in modern 3D fighters making it difficult to make use of GGPO style rollback.

Of course I could be completely misunderstanding the point several posters in the thread thus far have made.

Feel free to correct me rather than be a ninny.

TreIII · Jul 17, 2011

Teknoman said:
I wonder if anyone is going to call them on that?

Certainly would be an interesting for the likes of the Avoiding the Puddle crew to bring up. Or anybody, really.

Ravidrath · Jul 17, 2011

Yeah, so I asked Mike Z, and he confirmed that there is no technical reason they couldn't convert their game over to use GGPO.

Mike Z said:
It may be that since their games aren't frame-based (or possibly are not syncing random seeds) they have to send data like dT and other things... however, everything in a computer is able to be entirely predictable, since there IS no real randomness... it's just a matter of if they want to do it.

I worked on games with incredibly complex 3D animation systems, and all of them could be predicted simply from inputs.

So even though it may be a lot of work, and they are probably deciding it's not worth the effort, in the end yeah it's just "We don't want to."

There is zero technical reason why they can't.

So there you have it from someone who has actually converted his game's code to use GGPO and implemented it.

GGPO is entirely based on just sending inputs and any other relevant data like character select, random seeds, etc. It takes some restructuring of your code to do that, and what this statement from Namco says that they just don't think it's worth doing.

M3d10n · Jul 18, 2011

Ravidrath said:
GGPO is entirely based on just sending inputs and any other relevant data like character select, random seeds, etc. It takes some restructuring of your code to do that, and what this statement from Namco says that they just don't think it's worth doing.

Like you said, GGPO requires the game to be capable of going back in time. Depending on how (badly) the game was written this might require a massive code rewrite on the existing codebase.

BTW, I never understood why GGPO needs rollbacks. Unless it tries to predict the opponent's inputs (the only way to mask lag), any desyncs would be caused by programmer error (uninitialized variables containing garbage values, using client-specific data, not using the same random seed, etc). In such case simply going back in time wouldn't avoid the problem from coming up again.

noodalls · Jul 18, 2011

One thought about why Tekken might work worse than VF over the network - VF is very "digital" in its approach to game systems, whereas Tekken is very "analog" or fuzzy.

For example, if you look at sidestepping (evading) in VF, if you press sidestep at a given disadvantage and the opponent attacks, the sidestep will succeed, regardless of whether the (linear) attack's hitbox overlaps your character or not. In Tekken (as shown by my sidestep FAQ, see SDTekken) whether a sidestep will connect or not seems to come down entirely to hitboxes, there's not an overarching system to determine success or failure.

This can't make the amount of data sent back and forward across the network any easier.

TreIII · Jul 18, 2011

Ravidrath said:
Yeah, so I asked Mike Z, and he confirmed that there is no technical reason they couldn't convert their game over to use GGPO.

So there you have it from someone who has actually converted his game's code to use GGPO and implemented it.

GGPO is entirely based on just sending inputs and any other relevant data like character select, random seeds, etc. It takes some restructuring of your code to do that, and what this statement from Namco says that they just don't think it's worth doing.

Wow. Thanks for the sharing the insights, sir!

sixteen-bit · Jul 18, 2011

Ravidrath said:
Yeah, so I asked Mike Z, and he confirmed that there is no technical reason they couldn't convert their game over to use GGPO.

So there you have it from someone who has actually converted his game's code to use GGPO and implemented it.

GGPO is entirely based on just sending inputs and any other relevant data like character select, random seeds, etc. It takes some restructuring of your code to do that, and what this statement from Namco says that they just don't think it's worth doing.

That's what I assumed. Thank you!

ElFly · Jul 18, 2011

noodalls said:
One thought about why Tekken might work worse than VF over the network - VF is very "digital" in its approach to game systems, whereas Tekken is very "analog" or fuzzy.

For example, if you look at sidestepping (evading) in VF, if you press sidestep at a given disadvantage and the opponent attacks, the sidestep will succeed, regardless of whether the (linear) attack's hitbox overlaps your character or not. In Tekken (as shown by my sidestep FAQ, see SDTekken) whether a sidestep will connect or not seems to come down entirely to hitboxes, there's not an overarching system to determine success or failure.

This can't make the amount of data sent back and forward across the network any easier.

The data is the same, input controls.

Now, calculating whether a move connected or not may be more expensive cpu-wise in this specific case, which may be a problem when rolling back states, but it's hard to say that it is deal breaker.

SapientWolf · Jul 18, 2011

M3d10n said:
Like you said, GGPO requires the game to be capable of going back in time. Depending on how (badly) the game was written this might require a massive code rewrite on the existing codebase.

BTW, I never understood why GGPO needs rollbacks. Unless it tries to predict the opponent's inputs (the only way to mask lag), any desyncs would be caused by programmer error (uninitialized variables containing garbage values, using client-specific data, not using the same random seed, etc). In such case simply going back in time wouldn't avoid the problem from coming up again.

It could also be caused by lag, since there are basically two separate instances of the game running on either player's machine.

Sixfortyfive · Jul 18, 2011

grap3fruitman said:
No, it's not that. It's that there are a lot more things to keep track of and in sync in 3D games that GGPO isn't designed for. Heck, add a Z axis and that's a lot more data by itself that needs to be calculated.

None of this is remotely true.

These threads are always painful to read.

Zissou · Jul 18, 2011

I'm inclined to believe Mike Z until someone refutes his statement. Implementing GGPO being more work than they're willing to do sounds believable when it comes to Bandai-Namco.

Sectus · Jul 18, 2011

M3d10n said:
Like you said, GGPO requires the game to be capable of going back in time. Depending on how (badly) the game was written this might require a massive code rewrite on the existing codebase.

BTW, I never understood why GGPO needs rollbacks. Unless it tries to predict the opponent's inputs (the only way to mask lag), any desyncs would be caused by programmer error (uninitialized variables containing garbage values, using client-specific data, not using the same random seed, etc). In such case simply going back in time wouldn't avoid the problem from coming up again.

I'm pretty sure it does something similar to that. Any current frame uses up to date input from your own client but delayed input from the opponent. I imagine a rollback could happen even if the opponent starts moving in a different direction after moving forward for a second.

Ravidrath said:
Yeah, so I asked Mike Z, and he confirmed that there is no technical reason they couldn't convert their game over to use GGPO.

So there you have it from someone who has actually converted his game's code to use GGPO and implemented it.

GGPO is entirely based on just sending inputs and any other relevant data like character select, random seeds, etc. It takes some restructuring of your code to do that, and what this statement from Namco says that they just don't think it's worth doing.

Did he comment on the process after rolling back where the game has to advance to the current frame by going frame by frame with the new input? I imagine that's what could possibly be very resource demanding as there's many minor graphical elements you'd wanna make sure is correct after doing the rollback (in the example of SC that would be any cloth animations, particle effects, and probably a bunch of other graphical elements). And if that didn't happen in the timespan of a single tick, you'd get a new form of lag.

The Faceless Master · Jul 18, 2011

TheSeks said:
LOLWUTPEAR.jpg You and I must have played different VF5's because any time I've had VF5 online sessions the netcode is passable, but no where near DOA's level.

As much as people want to hate and stamp their feet and go "LOL TITS AND ASS FIGHTER" DOA's netcode is THE BAR to meet for 3D fighting games and that came out in 2004. It's a shame they still haven't been matched.

yeah, it's sad that a game released SEVEN YEARS AGO on a last gen console still kicks the shit out of current games in online options, implementation and netcode.

R.I.P. Team Ninja, (1995-2008)

grap3fruitman · Jul 18, 2011

The Faceless Master said:
yeah, it's sad that a game released SEVEN YEARS AGO on a last gen console still kicks the shit out of current games in online options, implementation and netcode.

R.I.P. Team Ninja, (1995-2008)

To be fair, they couldn't get it right on the current gen in 2005 with DOA4 either.

V_Arnold · Jul 18, 2011

The Take Out Bandit said:
Nah, I read most of the posts in the thread and everything points to all the visual shenanigans in modern 3D fighters making it difficult to make use of GGPO style rollback.

Of course I could be completely misunderstanding the point several posters in the thread thus far have made.

Feel free to correct me rather than be a ninny.

Keep fighting the good fight, Cap!

Nothing prevents you from playing da old games with GGPO, move along if you do not like what you see and play with new games.

darkblade77 · Jul 18, 2011

Sectus said:
Did he comment on the process after rolling back where the game has to advance to the current frame by going frame by frame with the new input? I imagine that's what could possibly be very resource demanding as there's many minor graphical elements you'd wanna make sure is correct after doing the rollback (in the example of SC that would be any cloth animations, particle effects, and probably a bunch of other graphical elements). And if that didn't happen in the timespan of a single tick, you'd get a new form of lag.

None of those elements need to be precise from the perspective of a rollback. They would be calculated as a result of interpreting the current state of the game, rather than get saved frame-by-frame. There might have to be some adjustment to keep the physics engine from thinking the result of a rollback is telporting from point A to point B, but that's about it.

The closest valid thing that may cause problems would be dynamic interactable objects in stages i.e. Tekken walls or everything you can see in Power Stone, and even those don't have to be saved in any complex fashion if prepared for correctly.

Sectus · Jul 18, 2011

darkblade77 said:
None of those elements need to be precise from the perspective of a rollback. They would be calculated as a result of interpreting the current state of the game, rather than get saved frame-by-frame. There might have to be some adjustment to keep the physics engine from thinking the result of a rollback is telporting from point A to point B, but that's about it.

The closest valid thing that may cause problems would be dynamic interactable objects in stages i.e. Tekken walls or everything you can see in Power Stone, and even those don't have to be saved in any complex fashion if prepared for correctly.

I imagine the cloth at least would be problematic. That definitely is something which is constantly moving based on its previous position instead of referring only to the current animation frame. And having that snap to a rather awkward position during a rollback instead of being where it should be would look weird.

I guess the biggest problem is one of structure since GGPO requires the code to do things in a very unusual way. The game is definitely coded to do everything for every tick, and they'd need to rewrite that code or make a variant which only does the bare minimum for rollbacks.

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He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.

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