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DICE: 2GB RAM next-gen "would not be enough", won't allow "game changing experiences"

N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
At GDC, DICE drew a line in the sand for what kind of memory they want in next-gen consoles.

Joystiq said:
During the Game Developer's Choice awards, DICE took home the prize of "Best Technology" for its Frostbite 2 engine. After accepting the award on behalf of his team, we asked DICE rendering architect Johan Andersson what the next generation of consoles would need to include for Frostbite 2 to work 'perfectly and as intended on high-end PCs.' To Andersson, the answer is "pretty easy to answer."

"There's two things: memory and processing power," he said. "We need lots and lots of processing power. The more you can cram into a machine, we'll take advantage of that." While 'more power' is the obvious answer -- both on the CPU and GPU side -- we wondered what wouldn't be 'enough' to work with.

"Two gigabytes would not be enough when it comes to RAM [random access memory]" Andersson said. "Four gigabytes would work. Eight gigabytes? Yeah. I think that would be perfect when it comes to memory." Recommended system specifications for Battlefield 3 call for 4GB of RAM.

...

While developing a machine built on Andersson's dream specs would assuredly create a graphical powerhouse to rival high-end PC rigs, Andersson says his specs aren't solely focused on increasing visual fidelity. To him, it's about the experience. "To build game changing experiences, not just pretty visuals, but game changing experiences? That's what we're really excited to do, going forward." Andersson wouldn't elaborate on what "game changing experiences" he had in mind.

When it comes to the GPU, Andersson says things obviously need to be faster but he doesn't envision consoles including multiple graphic processing units.

Andersson says there are "quite a few games" currently in development using the Frostbite 2 engine, but wouldn't go into detail beyond currently announced titles. Recently, EA revealed both Medal of Honor Warfighter and Command & Conquer: Generals 2 would be built on the technology.

When asked whether Mirror's Edge 2 was running on Frostbite 2 (because we're sly like that), Andersson quickly shot back: "If we were to build a Mirror's Edge 2, it would use Frostbite 2."
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Source: http://www.joystiq.com/2012/03/09/battlefield-3s-rendering-architect-details-his-dream-specs-for/
 
How is it possible that some devs do not understand that 2GB is the technically limit for a console with UMA in 2013?

If they want a console with 8GB of ram, they can wait for the Steambox with 8GB of DDR3 ram.
 
Averon said:
These companies want Sony and MS to bankrupt their gaming divisions, it seems.
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Nah, they just want to be able to load as much of the game into the RAM as possible, so they don't have to fuck around with weird loading and streaming techniques, or by splitting up areas that otherwise would be one.
 
I think 4gb would be my call for next gen as well. Not the 8gb madness Crytek want, but a pretty significant boost. Maybe an extra 512mb/1gb solely for an os running concurrently at any time.

The Vita suspend stuff has really spoiled me. Having that on the next consoles is a must I think.
 
MS will want to ship with 2GB. Epic will show them Samaritan running with 4GB and convince them to double it. Crytek will cry(tek) into their cereal bowls.
 
2GB is a joke, give developers head room and the ability to experiment. Not all this "Oh squeeze a bit here, cut a little here, shitty textures here, we can't load this into the ram.
 
Suairyu said:
Only because you've yet to come across a game that fully utilises it.

Explain.
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They won't be using anything more than 256 bit buses for the next gen consoles if they want to shrink chips for slim versions. You can connect maximum of 8 chips for 2GB of GDDR5 ram. If GDDR5 ram density doubles, you can do 4GB, but that won't happen before 2014.
 
Opus Angelorum said:
The extra $20 it would cost to have at least 4GB would be absolutely worth it, it would prolong the life of the console no end.
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$20 x 30 million = $600 million for the first year. Also, you do realize it isn't PC ram that you can buy at NewEgg, right? Try telling your investors that another $600 million for 4 gigs of ram is a great idea. Then spread the extra cost over te lifespan of the console.
 
I actually get excited for launch windows now as it's one of the few occasions where developers use all the new hardware grunt to up framerates and resolution. Then a year later the bar of "graphics" quality is raised and everything has to get scaled back to sub-30fps, sub-HD resolutions again.

Paracelsus said:
How about we settle for 4gb and better texture artists? Hm?
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What's the definition of a "better texture artist"? Someone who can fit 8 gigs of textures into 4gigs?
 
I can't imagine why in the hell 2GB wouldn't be enough. Seems like Dice wants to be lazy with there assets.


ClovingSteam said:
$20 x 30 million = $600 million for the first year. Also, you do realize it isn't PC ram that you can buy at NewEgg, right? Try telling your investors that another $600 million for 4 gigs of ram is a great idea. Then spread the extra cost over te lifespan of the console.
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Ram reduces cost rapidly.
 
I guess they're setting themselves up for disappointment early. There's no way any of the next gen consoles will have more than 2GB of RAM. Compared to this gen, 2GB as standard is phenominal. People are still working wonders with 512MB so I doubt anyone will have issues next time around with 2GB.
 
ClovingSteam said:
$20 x 30 million = $600 million for the first year. Also, you do realize it isn't PC ram that you can buy at NewEgg, right? Try telling your investors that another $600 million for 4 gigs of ram is a great idea. Then spread the extra cost over te lifespan of the console.
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Just like the 360 512mb RAM investment was right?
 
RAM is pretty cheap, and it'll only get cheaper. 2gigs is dirt cheap, 8gigs costs more but in 2-3 years it will be dirt cheap too.
 
ClovingSteam said:
$20 x 30 million = $600 million for the first year. Also, you do realize it isn't PC ram that you can buy at NewEgg, right? Try telling your investors that another $600 million for 4 gigs of ram is a great idea. Then spread the extra cost over te lifespan of the console.
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Doesn't costs decrease through time?
 
iamshadowlark said:
I can't imagine why in the hell 2GB wouldn't be enough. Seems like Dice wants to be lazy with there assets.
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I actually have to agree. The extra cost of going 4gb let alone 8gb will be a mighty tough sell to investors especially after Microsoft did so well this gen with Kinect and not pushing ram to more than 512mb.
 
iamshadowlark said:
I can't imagine why in the hell 2GB wouldn't be enough. Seems like Dice wants to be lazy with there assets.
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At the time the 360 launched with 512megs of RAM, 1gig of RAM was standard in newly built gaming PCs, edging towards 2gigs.

Right now, 4gigs of RAM is standard in newly built gaming PCs, with many going for 8. Consoles will need 4gigs minimum if you want graphics, environmental destruction and all that loveliness to move on from the stuff you're already seeing on the PC.

Previous said:
RAM is pretty cheap, and it'll only get cheaper. 2gigs is dirt cheap, 8gigs costs more but in 2-3 years it will be dirt cheap too.
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You absolutely cannot compare the cost of PC RAM and the stuff that gets put in consoles. Make no mistake, it'd be an expensive proposition for the hardware companies.
 
Suairyu said:
At the time the 360 launched with 512megs of RAM, 1gig of RAM was standard in newly built gaming PCs, edging towards 2gigs.

Right now, 4gigs of RAM is standard in newly built gaming PCs, with many going for 8. Consoles will need 4gigs minimum if you want graphics to move on from the stuff you're already seeing on the PC.
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Console ram = GDDR5. PC ram = DDR3.
 
But 1GB is good enough for super awesome fun time graphics on the iPad and it's way more powerfuler than what we have now.

Am I doing it right?
 
Since Sony is looking to launch Q1 2014, perhaps there is the teeny tiniest possibility of 4 Goobla Bytes of RAM.

Of course, let's see Epic and Dice can change Sony and esp. MS's mind given that they are gunning for mid-late 2013 launch.
 
3rd parties are starting to get pushy. It's one thing to ask simple demands, but 8GBs? I realize when Crytek asked for it, they weren't use to console optimization yet. But DICE has not only said this before, but are sticking to it. They seem to WANT consoles to be $600. I mean, 4GBs would be far more than pushing it. Cooling would be an issue, console size, and cost. I guess when you only make software, you have no idea what goes into making hardware.
 
Bring back the Ram Pak.

expansion_pack_n64_4mb.jpg


Expandable memory is the only way everyone can be happy and the console makers don't go broke.
 
Suairyu said:
At the time the 360 launched with 512megs of RAM, 1gig of RAM was standard in newly built gaming PCs, edging towards 2gigs.

Right now, 4gigs of RAM is standard in newly built gaming PCs, with many going for 8. Consoles will need 4gigs minimum if you want graphics, environmental destruction and all that loveliness to move on from the stuff you're already seeing on the PC.
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there is no need to match console and PC RAM. Besides the fact that they use much faster RAM they dont have to have a full fledged OS with all kinds of programs running in the background
 
Microsoft did so well this gen with Kinect and not pushing ram to more than 512mb.
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They tried to ship with 256 until Epic pleaded with them for 512.

RAM goes far beyond asset quality, especially when you have developers wanting to make bigger, more seamless games and manufacturers wanting to load down their machines with multi-tasking and OS functions.

8GB is a pipe dream, but I really think 4 is a good standard.
 
Proelite said:
Console ram = GDDR5. PC ram = DDR3.
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The speed of the RAM doesn't affect its overall capacity. In performance terms, it makes a difference but in terms of texture fidelity? Not really.

gcubed said:
there is no need to match console and PC RAM. Besides the fact that they use much faster RAM they dont have to have a full fledged OS with all kinds of programmings running in the background
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At the beginning of console's life? A console absolutely should be somewhat comparable with the PC gaming standard of the time. The 360 and PS3 certainly were. In terms of CPU they were in fact years ahead of the PC standard.
 
I don't think it's unrealistic that there will be more 2GB. Size and speed of RAM have increased without a price hike over the last few years, at a pace similar to previous generations right? Or has there been some massive slow down I'm ignorant of? I ask because we went from 4 / 8MB in N64 to 64MB in Xbox to 512MB in 360, and those were shorter generations. If a 720 launches 7-8 years after its predecessor, is it unreasonable to think it will have more than four times the RAM?

Disclaimer: I don't know shit about types and speed of RAM.
 
Suairyu said:
Explain.
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I await a better explanation by someone more tech savvy, but apparently current chip densities would require 8 embedded chips* for 2GBs of ram and 16 for 4GB. There are inherent problems regarding where all those chips would go, heating issues, and (from what I've been told) running lines and connections becomes incomprehensibly complicated beyond 8 chips. Essentially it's feasible but very impractical, and it would raise manufacturing costs substantially (this isn't like a PC where you just put in a stick).

That's my understanding of it anyway from what people on this board have said. I have little real tech knowledge though, so I'm just regurgitating what I've heard by people more knowledgeable than I.


*I think it was 8 chips iirc but I might be wrong
 
Just put 8GB in in it already. 8GB is gonna raise the price by about $50 to start with, but RAM prices keep falling. In a year or two, it won't add anything significant to the price.
 
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