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marc^o^ · Jun 21, 2012

Debate of the day, courtesy of GVG
http://www.computerandvideogames.co...xbox-720-are-more-powerful/?page=2#top_banner

Great games emerge from their mechanics - the way you play them - not from the sheer number of polygons the processor can spit out.

At least, that's the line Kyle Gabler takes, one of the two man team behind World of Goo developer 2DBoy: "Remember that enormous world in Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past?" he says. "And all the music and feelings it made you feel? The whole game fit inside 1MB and played on hardware slower than my phone.

That whole world, and all the characters inside of it, fit inside the amount of data it takes to render the hi-def sweaty bicep of the grumpy soldier who saves the world in every single game these days. More processing power doesn't make better games, just like better recording equipment doesn't make better music, and better CG doesn't make better movies. The best developers always work with what they've got and embrace any constraints as friendly challenges to be even more creative."

Even on the Xbox and PS3, the most critically lauded games in recent months have been beret-wearing indie titles Fez and Journey - both games with gorgeous art direction and novel mechanics, as well as relatively modest graphical requirements.

But it would be disingenuous to declare graphics an irrelevance. While great games can easily exist within the limitations of Wii U, certain kinds of experiences really do benefit from extra power to deliver high fidelity visuals, physics simulation or hoopy AI. They might not be better games, but they're equally valid approaches - ones which are likely to migrate to the heavy hitting hardware

"People are often quick to draw an imaginary line between design and art that doesn't really exist," says Thomas Holt. He's now an art director over at CCP, makers of dizzyingly ambitious MMOs. "The graphical fidelity you can get out of your hardware has a huge impact on game design," he says.

"Hardware doesn't just affect your framerate, it contributes to your ability to use physics and determines the number of enemies you have on screen. With Extraction, because we were an evolved rail shooter, we were able to pull off all kinds of smoke and mirrors - if we'd tried to do a full-on third-person action adventure, with that level of fidelity, it just never would've gotten green lit."

Wii U is already drawing developers with smart uses of its second screen, and it's possible that by guaranteeing novelty, while capping graphics budgets, Nintendo could lure the really innovative studios away from more expensive hardware leaps. On those graphics powerhouses, the sheer volume of mega-bucks needed to stuff the AAA money hole will make innovative gameplay something of a risk - it's the reason that big-hitting titles so often tend to trudge the tame path of iteration in well-worn genres.

"Give creative people unique platforms and they'll smash all expectations of what games are," says Vella. "I think Nintendo would do well to acknowledge this, and give independent developers tools to explore what new frontiers the Wii U can create."

"So many surprising and amazing games come from indie developers. We know we can't compete on the same field as the big AAA teams, so we make games about our feelings, or the fourth dimension, or a metaphor for a difficult relationship that's best expressed through a game."

Experimental, risky and idiosyncratic games - these are the sorts of things the focus-tested AAA market shies away from, and if Nintendo doesn't want to compete with Sony and Microsoft in rendering tech, then these are exactly the kind of things that it could do well to champion. If Wii U becomes the place for innovation, then the sky - rather than the processor - is the limit.

Good, objective article with interesting quotes.

Bumhead · Jun 21, 2012

I think it depends what you want from the system.

If you're signing up for the next 5-6 years of Nintendo exclusives then no, I don't think it does matter. Nintendo are going to push the most out of the system and belie its limitations just like they did with the Wii.

If you have high expectations of third parties then I think it does matter, yes.

outunderthestars · Jun 21, 2012

TheWednesday said:
I think it depends what you want from the system.

If you're signing up for the next 5-6 years of Nintendo exclusives then no, I don't think it does matter. Nintendo are going to push the most out of the system and belie its limitations just like they did with the Wii.

If you have high expectations of third parties then I think it does matter, yes.

And we're pretty much done here folks.

Also, I know the OP is a diehard fighter of the console wars, but posting an article from Ngamer magazine that cherry picks a handful of indie developers positive comments isn't really a "debate."

Impeccable · Jun 21, 2012

It really shouldn't but it does.

Primarily because developers probably aren't going to optimize games for three consoles, they can't even pull it off with two.

BY2K · Jun 21, 2012

For Nintendo itself, no.
For Third-Parties, yes.

EDIT: What TheWednesday said.

SquiddyCracker · Jun 21, 2012

Reminds me of this:

It actually does matter, as many non-nintendo games can use that extra "power" for more immersive games.

cw_sasuke · Jun 21, 2012

It matters, but it will matter less than last gen where Wii didn't even offer HD output. WiiU should be fine.

Chû Totoro · Jun 21, 2012

I'm glad Nintendo took so many different ways for the gaming experiences they offer.
Maybe this is not the best thing but at least they're trying something different and after the first bashing articles we're starting to see more maturity in thediscussions about Wii-U, Nintendo and next gen (in the way a lot of people think it should be...and think Sony and Microsoft will take).
This article sums it up nicely for me... Seriously graphics are very very important but is it only about that and more important good art direction is different from an avalanche of polygons...

The only things I would like to see improved by next gen power are fps, AI and physics implementation. But actual systems can do great thing even in the two last domain so why Wii-U couldn't?

Vanille · Jun 21, 2012

It certainly does if Nintendo wants the system to have a healthy life cycle.

Sardello · Jun 21, 2012

It's not a matter of power, but of support

Aostia · Jun 21, 2012

Sardello said:
It's not a matter of power, but of support

I agree.
I would be ok with the power that I think this console realistically have inside, at the right price, if the console itself will be constantly supported.

Panajev2001a · Jun 21, 2012

There are VERY creative games and possibilities for the indie developers producing games sitting alongside AAA budget style games on very powerful platforms: see iOS devices, see PS3 and Xbox 360, etc...

Consoles wise, both Sony and MS will continue to invite smaller developers in too: why do you think Sony has the Pub Fund and low cost engine alternatives like the Phyre Engine (which is how TGC got started for fl0w and Flower IIRC) or the newly announced PlayStation Suite/Mobile? Why do you think MS has the XNA project?

Better HW platforms help super devs to realize AAA experiences while allowing smaller developers to make their uniqueness shine through even though their technical skills and/or manpower is not able to optimize engine, tools, and assets as much as the "big boys" are.

HW performance is a tool, not an end in and of itself.

So yes, having weaker HW, if it is significantly weaker, can be a problem.

Ein Bear · Jun 21, 2012

Nah, I don't really care how powerful it is - we're all nerds on GAF, it's not like we won't all have at least one of the other next-gen consoles or a gaming PC to play all the big third party stuff on. The Wii was a great console, with some awesome, unique games, and I'm buying the Wii U for the same experience.

Thrakier · Jun 21, 2012

You shouldn't look at it in relation to PS4 or new XBOX, you should look at it from perspective regarding a tech-lifecycle. If I buy a Wii U now and play it for 6 years and I had a 360/Ps3 before, that means I was playing with the same tech for about 12 years. And in techie-land, that's like a million of years. Sorry, but to me it's a no go, I won't touch that thing and I learned my Wii-lesson pretty good. Besides that that tablet controller is FAR less exciting than motion controls back then. Everyone wanted to try Wii Tennis. At the moment, I don't have the slightest interest to try any of the WiiU games.

Vermillion · Jun 21, 2012

TheWednesday said:
I think it depends what you want from the system.

If you're signing up for the next 5-6 years of Nintendo exclusives then no, I don't think it does matter. Nintendo are going to push the most out of the system and belie its limitations just like they did with the Wii.

If you have high expectations of third parties then I think it does matter, yes.

Sardello said:
It's not a matter of power, but of support

That's about it.

michaelius · Jun 21, 2012

Exercise for people who think it doesn't

Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps

and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming

Panajev2001a · Jun 21, 2012

Chû Totoro;39101217 said:
good art direction is different from an avalanche of polygons...

The question for a lot of developers is an honest "are you capable of delivering that art style in real time?". Opening up game development to people who might be great artists and designers, but not super skilled optimization freaks is helped by the improved HW performance each generation brings forward.

If modern iOS devices were significantly weaker and if Apple did not do its part in making better and better tools to make development easier and more efficient you would probably see less of the small quirky little indie games a lot of people like.

Anustart · Jun 21, 2012

It's a nintendo system, I know ill have tons of fun with only 1st party, but they system is also hd so it can basically do anything a ps4 or next box can do, so sign me up there as well.

Better graphics isn't going to equal more fun.

onQ123 · Jun 21, 2012

no but it does matter that the consoles that most people already have is just as powerful.

but then again you can't play Mario on these consoles so the power well mostly only matter to people who care more about the 3rd party games.

Liamario · Jun 21, 2012

TheWednesday said:
I think it depends what you want from the system.

If you're signing up for the next 5-6 years of Nintendo exclusives then no, I don't think it does matter. Nintendo are going to push the most out of the system and belie its limitations just like they did with the Wii.

If you have high expectations of third parties then I think it does matter, yes.

Hole in one.

Shion · Jun 21, 2012

Zelda and Metroid deserve better hardware.

Ivory Samoan · Jun 21, 2012

I don't think it matters at all.... the market has defined the Nintendo as the default family console, and for this role - it need not be powerful, just fun.

abstract alien · Jun 21, 2012

TheWednesday said:
I think it depends what you want from the system.

If you're signing up for the next 5-6 years of Nintendo exclusives then no, I don't think it does matter. Nintendo are going to push the most out of the system and belie its limitations just like they did with the Wii.

If you have high expectations of third parties then I think it does matter, yes.

That was fast and accurate.

michaelius said:
Exercise for people who think it doesn't

Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps

and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming

Call me when there are good games to play with said power and framerate lol

Jezbollah · Jun 21, 2012

I think it matters if the Wii U does indeed choke down to 30fps when a second controller is activated.

AzaK · Jun 21, 2012

michaelius said:
Exercise for people who think it doesn't

Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps

and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming

I could do that and then I'd tell you "power doesn't matter in gaming". If I played Metroid on the cube, and San Andreas on the PS2, and then Battlefied on a PC those first 2 annihilate the third for me. Metroid on a high end PC would obviously be better but the game itself trumps everything else.

All Wii U needs to be healthy I think is third party support even when 720 and PS4 come long.

Dan27 said:
I think it matters if the Wii U does indeed choke down to 30fps when a second controller is activated.

Most games are 30 anyway and the drop is likely due to the streaming resources (bandwdth and encoders etc) and not the actual GPU/CPU unless you're rendering full 3d scenes on all 3 screens.

Coolwhip · Jun 21, 2012

For cinematic games it does matter. Luckily I don't care about those.

outunderthestars · Jun 21, 2012

AzaK said:
All Wii U needs to be healthy I think is third party support even when 720 and PS4 come long.

That's a pretty big "all"

Micerider · Jun 21, 2012

Technology "enables" potential great design...but indeed, in the end, it's the great design that matters.

I'm on the side who thinks that a well design Wii U game will worth just as much as a well designed PS4/720 game, just as SMG 2 was one of my preferred games this generation depsite having the Wii has my least favored platform.

Yagharek · Jun 21, 2012

michaelius said:
Exercise for people who think it doesn't

Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps

and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming

I'd say it depends more on the game you choose.

Always-honest · Jun 21, 2012

I buy multiplats on the console that will have the best version.
I can only buy Nintendo games on a Nintendo console. The Wii games were so fucking ugly that it almost made me vomit sometimes (especially the jaggies really fucked up all the graphics, even if the game DID look good in art like SM galaxy).

I'm very happy that we will be able to play Nintendo games in HD now. I rather see it having more power than less, but wii was just to demanding on my eyecandy loving eyes. The Wii-U will be much less of a problem.

Vermillion · Jun 21, 2012

Shion said:
Zelda and Metroid deserve better hardware.

As an aside - I've always wanted a Zelda/Metroid crossover.

Dan27 said:
I think it matters if the Wii U does indeed choke down to 30fps when a second controller is activated.

I've been hearing that it's the controllers that drop to 30fps, not what's on the main screen.

Captain_Spanky · Jun 21, 2012

michaelius said:
Exercise for people who think it doesn't

Play a game on PS2/Wii/Gamecube in 480p
Play a game on PS3/X360 in non native 720p 20-25 fps frame rare
Play a game on powerfull PC in 1080p in 60 fps

and then tell me power doesn't matter for enjoyment of gaming

So you agree it doesn't then. More shiney does not=better game.

AngryMoth · Jun 21, 2012

I think for me the key thing is it can never be the only console I own. 1 or 2 great Nintendo games a year is nice but I need more than that out of a system. I will probably end up getting one when it has a good library and the price has come down, but like the Wii, it will always be a secondary console.

LSauchelli · Jun 21, 2012

I think that unlike with the Wii, the Wii U will be able to at least handle the game engines. So it will have the games.

Metal Gear?! · Jun 21, 2012

Dan27 said:
I think it matters if the Wii U does indeed choke down to 30fps when a second controller is activated.

Maximum bandwidth to wirelessly transmit video is not the same as "choking down" and you know it. You are intentionally being obtuse.

Kusagari · Jun 21, 2012

I don't expect a huge upgrade from 720 or PS4 at all. The Wii U will be the weakest, but should still be fine to receive ports that the Wii couldn't without massive downgrading.

2+2=5 · Jun 21, 2012

Wii: Does it really matter if PS3 and Xbox 360 are more powerful? ‎

Tricky I Shadow · Jun 21, 2012

Yes it certainty does to me. I want more up to date tech, not 6 year old tech. If I played on the Wii U I wouldnt be able to help myself and wish it was closer graphically to the PS4/720.

Then you have to factor in third part support. Which has been said like a billion times already, but once the next two consoles come out the Wii Us third party situation will look terrible.

Conclusion: The Wii U being underpowered stinks just like how the Wii being underpowered stunk.

Vermillion · Jun 21, 2012

2+2=5 said:
Wii: Does it really matter if PS3 and Xbox 360 are more powerful? ‎

Touché. I'd hope the situations are different, to say the least.

plagiarize · Jun 21, 2012

more power gives developers more to work with. if a developer doesn't want to push the power of a system, they don't have to. even if the Wii U Game Pad adds as much freedom and flexibility as adding the hardware power that we're likely to see in the PS4/720, having the Wii U Game Pad AND that amount of hardware power would add even more.

some developlers will do great things on any limited piece of hardware, and we know that hardware power is not the most important factor when it comes to sales, but of course it's important.

will i love my Wii U? most likely. would i love it more if it was more powerful than it's going to be? most likely.

Coolwhip · Jun 21, 2012

There is also a difference between the Wii situation and this one. With the Wii U Nintendo hits a certain threshold of sharp and pretty looking games. And games that actually look good on modern tvs. Wii games usually look downright ugly because of the limitations.

plagiarize said:
more power gives developers more to work with. if a developer doesn't want to push the power of a system, they don't have to. even if the Wii U Game Pad adds as much freedom and flexibility as adding the hardware power that we're likely to see in the PS4/720, having the Wii U Game Pad AND that amount of hardware power would add even more.

some developlers will do great things on any limited piece of hardware, and we know that hardware power is not the most important factor when it comes to sales, but of course it's important.

will i love my Wii U? most likely. would i love it more if it was more powerful than it's going to be? most likely.

Out of curiousity, what kind of new gameplay do you expect from more horsepower?

outunderthestars · Jun 21, 2012

AngryMoth said:
I think for me the key thing is it can never be the only console I own. 1 or 2 great Nintendo games a year is nice but I need more than that out of a system. I will probably end up getting one when it has a good library and the price has come down, but like the Wii, it will always be a secondary console.

This is where I am at, but I'll end up buying one at launch. It will probably sit covered in dust in between major Nintendo releases though.

DaSorcerer7 · Jun 21, 2012

Tricky I Shadow said:
Yes it certainty does to me. I want more up to date tech, not 6 year old tech. If I played on the Wii U I wouldnt be able to help myself and wish it was closer graphically to the PS4/720.

Then you have to factor in third part support. Which has been said like a billion times already, but once the next two consoles come out the Wii Us third party situation will look terrible.

Conclusion: The Wii U being underpowered stinks just like how the Wii being underpowered stunk.

Its already been confirmed that the Wii U is using modern tech.

marc^o^ · Jun 21, 2012

Coolwhip said:
There is also a difference between the Wii situation and this one. With the Wii U Nintendo hits a certain threshold of sharp and pretty looking games.

Indie and 2D games should look about the same on Wii U and high end PCs. The difference could be resolution vs 2 screens and more control options. For these games I believe Wii U will have the upper hand.

Pie and Beans · Jun 21, 2012

If I'm spending anywhere near £200 for new hardware 6 years after the last jump in tech, then yes, it does matter that its not 6 years advanced in kind.

I feel like the 3DS' initial woes was like some trial run for certain Nintendo fans that had a lot of plain sailing during the heart of the DS and Wii's success stories. The amount of spin coming out is admirable for unpaid non-employees of the corporation.

AzaK · Jun 21, 2012

2+2=5 said:
Wii: Does it really matter if PS3 and Xbox 360 are more powerful? ‎

JokerOfSpades said:
Touché. I'd hope the situations are different, to say the least.

It wouldn't have mattered if they shared feature sets which is essentially what the Wii U does with PS3 and 360 and looks like it will with PS4 and 720 wrt compute shaders.

Pie and Beans said:
If I'm spending anywhere near £200 for new hardware 6 years after the last jump in tech, then yes, it does matter that its not 6 years advanced in kind.

I feel like the 3DS' initial woes was like some trial run for certain Nintendo fans that had a lot of plain sailing during the heart of the DS and Wii's success stories. The amount of spin coming out is admirable for unpaid non-employees of the corporation.

The Wii U's GPU was finished late last or early this year as far as we know.

Clevinger · Jun 21, 2012

If you care a lot about graphics, yes. If you don't, no. Same as the Wii.

Tricky I Shadow · Jun 21, 2012

I think once the PS4/720 settle in that’s when the lack of power with the Wii U will really start to sting.

At the moment it doesn’t seem like a huge problem, but in a few years time it’ll be a different story...

Thrakier · Jun 21, 2012

Well, guys, just check NEOGAF for Wii topics for the last 2-3 years. Then you'll see if it matters.

At least for our niche here.

BGBW · Jun 21, 2012

outunderthestars said:
It will probably sit covered in dust in between major Nintendo releases though.

Wouldn't it be covered in dust even if you used it everyday? It's not like you need to move it to insert games.

The main factor will come down to if companies can afford to make the most of the more powerful systems. The WiiU could be the PS2 of the generation and get slightly weaker versions of games simply to help companies break even. Now I can't say for certain whether this ports will be acceptable after the kerfuffle we saw with the PS3 and third party games, but that just goes to show that power means nothing if the developer isn't competent.

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