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The Hobbit reread thread

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D

Darkgran

Member
May I suggest this version...

51T2dONZxKL_SS500_.jpg


But yeah I'm in.
 
M

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
I can join you guys with the audiobook, sad to say im not much of a reader, unabridged version of course!
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
I just read it a couple weekends ago and I'm currently reading The Lord of the Rings but I'll probably be joining in on the conversation whenever it starts.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Some prelim info:

Thorin was originally known as Gandalf the Dwarf, didn't change permanently until the third phase of development
Gandalf was Bladorthin, which is more in keeping with Tolkien's mythos rather than the Norse 'Gandalf'
Smaug was known as Pryftan the Dragon
Beorn was known as Medwed
The Goblin King mentioned early in the story been beheaded and hence the game of golf been invented was called Fingolfin, the golfin an obvious reference to golf. The name eventually went to the great Elven Lord most famous for challenging Melkor to single combat.

The Necromancer was called Thu the Necromancer and was mentioned in the Lay of Lethian.

His development goes as follows:

Tu/Fangli (bad/good wizards from the Lost Tales) > Tevildo The Lord of Cats (a subordinate of Melko (Melko been Melkor's original name)) > Thu the Necromancer > The Necromancer > Sauron the Great/The Lord of Werewolves/Annatar Lord of Gifts/Gorthaur the Cruel/Mairon of Aule.

Beren and Luthien were mentioned in The Hobbit during the drafting phase just as in The Lord of the Rings, before been dropped.

Bilbo was originally intended to kill Pryftan, rather than Bard who had not yet been conceived. Bard was hence created to fill a void very quickly, explaining his sudden appearance with little backstory

Thorin was also a candidate. He was originally intended to survive and become King under the Mountain, instead of dying in the Battle of the Five Armies with Kili and Fili (originally his great-nephews).

As for the battle, it wasn't originally intended to happen, rather a political end with Bladorthin negotiating peace.

A battle would occur though, but a much smaller one with elves and goblins and men , no wargs, dwarves, eagles or Medwed.


Much more to come.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I've refrained from posting this before, but this thread is the right place to do it.
"The Hobbit" wasn't written for children, and it certainly wasn't done just for the amusement of Tolkien's three sons and one daughter, as is generally reported. "That's all sob stuff. No, of course, I didn't. If you're a youngish man and you don't want to be made fun of, you say you're writing for children. At any rate, children are your immediate audience and you write or tell them stories, for which they are mildly grateful: long rambling stories at bedtime.

"'The Hobbit' was written in what I should now regard as bad style, as if one were talking to children. There's nothing my children loathed more. They taught me a lesson. Anything that in any way marked out 'The Hobbit' as for children instead of just for people, they disliked-instinctively. I did too, now that I think about it. All this 'I won't tell you any more, you think about it' stuff. Oh no, they loathe it; it's awful.
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A quick and decisive end to those who rather annoyingly perpetuate the claim that the Hobbit is a children's story.
 
K

Kud Dukan

Member
Edmond Dantès;40699584 said:
I've refrained from posting this before, but this thread is the right place to do it.

A quick and decisive end to those who rather annoyingly perpetuate the claim the the Hobbit is a children's story.
Click to expand...

I've never seen those quotes before. Fascinating! Thanks for posting them!
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
One of the first and surviving reviews of The Hobbit from Anne T. Eaton written in 1938.
This is one of the most freshly original and delightfully imaginative books for children that have appeared in many a long day. Like "Alice in Wonderland," it comes from Oxford University, where the author is Professor of Anglo-Saxon, and like Lewis Carroll's story, it was written for children that the author knew (in this case his own four children) and then inevitably found a larger audience.

The period of the story is between the age of Faerie and the dominion of men. To an adult who reads of Smaug the Dragon and his board, won by the dwarves but claimed also by the Lake men and the Elven King, there may come the thought of how legend and tradition and the beginning of history meet and mingle, but for the reader from 8 to 12 "The Hobbit" is a glorious account of a magnificent adventure, filled with suspense and seasoned with a quiet humor that is irresistible.

Hobbits are (or were) a small people, smaller than dwarves-and they have no beards-but very much larger than liliputians. There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large, stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off. They are inclined to be fat in the stomach; they dress in bright colors, chiefly green and yellow; wear no shoes because their feet grow natural leathery soles and thick, warm brown hair; have long, clever, brown fingers, good-natured faces and laugh deep, fruity laughs (especially after dinner, which they have twice a day, when they can get it).

Bilbo Baggins was a hobbit whom we find living in his comfortable, not to say luxurious, hobbit hole, for it was not a dirty, wet hole, nor yet a bare, sandy one, but inside its round, green door, like a porthole, there were bedrooms, bathrooms, cellars, pantries, kitchens and dining rooms, all in the best of hobbit taste. All Bilbo asked was to be left in peace in this residence, known as "Bag-End," for hobbits are naturally homekeeping folk, and Bilbo had no desire for adventure. That is to say, the Baggins' side of him had not, but Bilbo's mother had been a Took, and in the past the Tooks had intermarried with a fairy family. It was the Took strain that made the little hobbit, almost against his will, respond to the summons of Gandalf the Wizard to join the dwarves in their attempt to recover the treasure which Smaug the dragon had stolen from their forefathers. Bilbo has an engaging, as well as an entirely convincing, personality; frankly scornful of the heroic (except in his most Tookish moments), he nevertheless plays his part in emergencies with a dogged courage and resourcefulness that make him in the end the real leader of the expedition.

After the dwarves and Bilbo have passed "The Last Homely House" their way led through Wilderland, over the Misty Mountains and through forests that suggest those of William Morris's prose romances. Like Morris's countries, Wilderland is Faerie, yet it has an earthly quality, the scent of trees drenching rains and the smell of woodfires.

The tale is packed with valuable hints for the dragon killer and adventurer in Faerie. Plenty of scaly monsters have been slain in legend and folktale, but never for modern readers has so complete a guide to dragon ways been provided. Here, too, are set down clearly the distinguishing characteristics of dwarves, goblins, trolls and elves. The account of the journey is so explicit that we can readily follow the progress of the expedition. In this we are aided by the admirable maps provided by the author, which in their detail and imaginative consistency, suggest Bernard Sleigh's "Mappe of Fairyland."

The songs of the dwarves and elves are real poetry, and since the author is fortunate enough to be able to make his own drawings, the illustrations are a perfect accompaniment to the test. Boys and girls from 8 years on have already given "The Hobbit" an enthusiastic welcome, but this is a book with no age limits. All those, young or old, who love a fine adventurous tale, beautifully told, will take "The Hobbit" to their hearts.
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E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
A review of The Hobbit animated film written in 1977.
f not yet a true classic, J. R. R. Tolkien's "The Hobbit" is an extraordinary cult phenomenon, especially among students. Its mythical saga about dwarves, goblins and dragons has been interpreted allegorically as everything from a pro-environmental statement to a celebration of Hitler's defeat. Professor Tolkien's reaction to these mounds of interpretation was a properly pithy "Bosh!"

Rankin and Bass Productions have now carefully translated "The Hobbit" into a 90-minute animated film that can be seen on NBC Sunday night at 8. The logistics behind the project are imposing. More than 200 artists were employed during the two years of production. The concept and drawings were completed in this country, but the film itself was put together in Japan.

The result is curiously eclectic, but filled with nicely effective moments. As Bilbo Baggins leaves his hobbit hole in Middle Earth to accept Gandalf the Wizard's invitation to a "burglary" adventure, the film seems undecided on whether to be cute or disturbingly serious. The compromise includes a somewhat cloying song dedicated to "The Greatest Adventure."

The drawings frequently suggest strong resemblances to non-Tolkien characters. The dwarves look suspiciously like Snow White's friends grown older. The goblins could have stepped out of a Maurice Sendak book. But Smaug (pronounced smog) the Dragon and Gollum the riddle aficionado bring some clever original touches to the animation proceedings.

The conclusion of the story retains its simple power. Surveying the devastation of war a dying dwarf asks: "Does it take this to make us see each other?" The cheerful Mr. Baggins, always valuing food and shelter above hoarding gold, returns to his hobbit hole, content to tend his own garden. Whatever its flaws, this television version of "The Hobbit" warrants attention.
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R

Rodney McKay

Member
Hey, I started doing this a week ago, stop copying me!

I just got past the Beorn part. Totally forgot about this next part in the spooky woods their about to go through.


I think the last time I read this was over a decade ago back in late elementary or early middle school.
 
A

aceface

Member
Edmond Dantès;40699584 said:
I've refrained from posting this before, but this thread is the right place to do it.

A quick and decisive end to those who rather annoyingly perpetuate the claim that the Hobbit is a children's story.
Click to expand...

But doesn't that quote say that he wrote it as if telling the story to children (at bedtime), but disliked those parts afterwards? Even if he regretted it afterwards, that would still make it a story for children, no? Or is he saying he wrote more parts like that he removed from the final manuscript? I'm a bit confused.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
aceface said:
But doesn't that quote say that he wrote it as if telling the story to children (at bedtime), but disliked those parts afterwards? Even if he regretted it afterwards, that would still make it a story for children, no?
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The part he mainly refers to is the patronising narrator that brings down the tone of the novel, something he would have rectified had he not given up on the New Hobbit, alas he thought it too similar and didn't want to tread old ground again.

The story itself is very adult in terms of themes and certain parts of the story depicting extreme violence, not to mention the war and political strife caused by the 'dragon's curse' on the treasure. A theme that runs throughout the legendarium and inflicts much suffering on the likes of Turin and co. The same theme is also found in Farmer Giles of Ham with the dragon Chrysophylax. Seems Tolkien was much inspired by Fáfnir from the Volsunga Saga.
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
Has Tolkien said anything mentioning Bilbo as the writer of the Hobbit? The narrator doesn't quite match up. Would an updated Hobbit have pushed that idea?
 
A

aceface

Member
But I would argue that even if he disliked it afterwards, the narrator and the tone of the book make it a book aimed at children. Maybe It would be closer to what we call Young Adult these days...there are adult themes but it's couched in a lighter tone. The lighter tone is what I particularly like about the book, not everything has to be as unendingly dramatic and pretentious as the Simarillion.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Felix Lighter said:
Has Tolkien said anything mentioning Bilbo as the writer of the Hobbit? The narrator doesn't quite match up. Would an updated Hobbit have pushed that idea?
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The updated Hobbit would have being written in the style of The Lord of the Rings with a lot of added narrative and further details on some of the characters; Thranduil for example.

Tolkien never really mentions the idea of having Bilbo as the narrator, but something more in line with Ælfwine from The Book of Lost Tales who visited Tol Eressëa and learned the story of the elves from them and proceeded to chronicle this info.

Also, Tom Shippey, a leading Tolkien scholar is quite right in this quote:
"Few writers for children nowadays would dare to include the scene of Thorin's death, or have a quest end with such a partial victory: 'no longer any question of dividing the hoard', many dead including immortals 'that should have lived long ages yet merrily in the wood', the hero weeping 'until his eyes were red'. Nor would they venture on such themes as the 'dragon-sickness' which strikes both Thorin and the Master of Laketown, so that the one is 'bewildered' morally, by 'the bewilderment of the treasure', the other physically, fleeing with his people's gold to die of starvation 'in the Waste, deserted by his companions.' As for the unforgiven ferocity of Beorn, the unyielding both-sides-in-the-right confrontation of Thorin and the Elvenking, the grim punctilo of Bard, even Gandalf's habitual short-temper, all these are far removed from standard presentations of virtue as thought suitable for child readers - no doubt why the book has remained so popular."
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A

aceface

Member
Edmond Dantès;40701496 said:
The updated Hobbit would have being written in the style of The Lord of the Rings with a lot of added narrative and further details on some of the characters; Thranduil for example.

Tolkien never really mentions the idea of having Bilbo as the narrator, but something more in line with Ælfwine from The Book of Lost Tales who visited Tol Eressëa and learned the story of the elves from them and proceeded to chronicle this info.

Also, Tom Shippey, a leading Tolkien scholar is quite right in this quote:
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No offense, but this sounds like Lucas redoing the original trilogy. I re-read The Hobbit a few weeks ago, it's awesome the way it is.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
aceface said:
No offense, but this sounds like Lucas redoing the original trilogy. I re-read The Hobbit a few weeks ago, it's awesome the way it is.
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But The Hobbit itself was an evolution of something else, Tolkien was always tinkering with his legendarium right up until his death. If he hadn't tinkered with the story it would have been much different (as evidenced above in post #11) and he even stated that he felt that it was rushed out to the publishers.

Who is to say that the New Hobbit would/wouldn't have been an improvement on the published version.

There's also the infamous 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter that was redone and this version is the only one in print currently and is the version which you most probably read. The original Hobbit with the original 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter is nowhere to be seen currently.
 
F

Felix Lighter

Member
Edmond Dantès;40701863 said:
There's also the infamous 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter that was redone and this version is the only one in print currently and is the version which you most probably read. The original Hobbit with the original 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter is nowhere to be seen currently.
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If it wasn't for the Lord of the Rings explicitly going over that, I wouldn't have realized it changed.
 
J-Roderton

J-Roderton

Member
Finished it for the first time last summer. I could be down to read it again.

Does it really matter which version I read? I have the one with the shitty pic of Bilbo on the cover and the really weird looking Gollem behind him.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Jroderton said:
Finished it for the first time last summer. I could be down to read it again.

Does it really matter which version I read? I have the one with the shitty pic of Bilbo on the cover and the really weird looking Gollem behind him.
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There's only one version of The Hobbit currently available. Not many people have the first edition of The Hobbit with the original 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter. So, you have the right version.

The annotated Hobbit mentioned above is just full of extra details relating to the story, but the story itself is the 'standard' version.
 
J-Roderton

J-Roderton

Member
Edmond Dantès;40702440 said:
There's only one version of The Hobbit currently available. Not many people have the first edition of The Hobbit with the original 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter. So, you have the right version.

The annotated Hobbit mentioned above is just full of extra details relating to the story, but the story itself is the 'standard' version.
Click to expand...

Awesome. I remember that chapter. I'll get on it soon.
 
A

aceface

Member
Edmond Dantès;40701863 said:
But The Hobbit itself was an evolution of something else, Tolkien was always tinkering with his legendarium right up until his death. If he hadn't tinkered with the story it would have been much different (as evidenced above in post #11) and he even stated that he felt that it was rushed out to the publishers.

Who is to say that the New Hobbit would/wouldn't have been an improvement on the published version.

There's also the infamous 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter that was redone and this version is the only one in print currently and is the version which you most probably read. The original Hobbit with the original 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter is nowhere to be seen currently.
Click to expand...

I was something of a Tolkien nut in my teenage years so I know about the two versions. Anyways, I don't want to shit up the thread with arguing, my point is I love the book for what it is, self-aware narrator and lighthearted tone most of all- if Tolkien wanted to make it more like Lord of the Rings, I'm glad he didn't get a chance to.

I posted this in the movie thread, but it probably fits better here, the story of how I got into The Hobbit:
You know, I first discovered The Hobbit on this crazy Apple IIe text adventure game I had as a kid. It would show pictures of the locations on the screen and you'd have to input text commands for Bilbo. The problem was that the game would never save correctly, so I'd have to restart from the beginning every single time. I remember one time I got to the Barrel part, after hours of playing. I was so happy. You would have to keep Thorin alive and Gandalf would come and go. They were both worthless though, when I got bored I would attack them with Sting. Thorin was easy to kill I think but Gandalf would usually kill me. Does anyone else have any memory of this? I'd love to play it agaIn.

Anyways, I got so annoyed with the game cause you couldn't save and I wanted to see what happened at the end, so I picked up my parents gold/boxed copy of the book they had got as a freebie from a book club. I was instantly hooked, I think I was 10 at the time. I since stole that book from my dad, it's the 50th anniversary edition, illustrated throughout witha special intro by Christopher Tolkien. Good stuff!

Edit: this is the edition: http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/dmiller/000847.htm
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
aceface said:
I was something of a Tolkien nut in my teenage years so I know about the two versions. Anyways, I don't want to shit up the thread with arguing, my point is I love the book for what it is, self-aware narrator and lighthearted tone most of all- if Tolkien wanted to make it more like Lord of the Rings, I'm glad he didn't get a chance to.

I posted this in the movie thread, but it probably fits better here, the story of how I got into The Hobbit:
You know, I first discovered The Hobbit on this crazy Apple IIe text adventure game I had as a kid. It would show pictures of the locations on the screen and you'd have to input text commands for Bilbo. The problem was that the game would never save correctly, so I'd have to restart from the beginning every single time. I remember one time I got to the Barrel part, after hours of playing. I was so happy. You would have to keep Thorin alive and Gandalf would come and go. They were both worthless though, when I got bored I would attack them with Sting. Thorin was easy to kill I think but Gandalf would usually kill me. Does anyone else have any memory of this? I'd love to play it agaIn.

Anyways, I got so annoyed with the game cause you couldn't save and I wanted to see what happened at the end, so I picked up my parents gold/boxed copy of the book they had got as a freebie from a book club. I was instantly hooked, I think I was 10 at the time. I since stole that book from my dad, it's the 50th anniversary edition, illustrated throughout witha special intro by Christopher Tolkien. Good stuff!

Edit: this is the edition: http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/dmiller/000847.htm
Click to expand...
Lovely version right there.

Would like to play that game, sounds fun.

edit: Is this the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTPAhdEp_E
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Hmm, lovely, quite a few people up for this now.

I'll come up with a sort of rough schedule we can keep to. Or we can just freestyle it and talk about whatever chapter we're on, but making sure everyone knows what you're referring to.

So, for example if you're on chapter 3, just type Chapter 3 before your reply.
 
Lamel

Lamel

Banned
Just read it a few weeks back, will join in the discussion.

My favorite part was the trek through the misty mountains and towards beorn's house.
 
K

kingocfs

Member
Edmond Dantès;40703664 said:
Hmm, lovely, quite a few people up for this now.

I'll come up with a sort of rough schedule we can keep to. Or we can just freestyle it and talk about whatever chapter we're on, but making sure everyone knows what you're referring to.

So, for example if you're on chapter 3, just type Chapter 3 before your reply.
Click to expand...

I think some sort of schedule would make discussion a lot better.
 
E

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Hwasong said:
I think some sort of schedule would make discussion a lot better.
Click to expand...

Two chapters a day and analysis in this thread seems like schedule everyone can follow.


An Unexpected Party
Roast Mutton

A Short Rest
Over Hill And Under Hill

Riddles In The Dark
Out Of The Frying-Pan Into The Fire

Queer Lodgings
Flies And Spiders

Barrels Out Of Bond
A Warm Welcome

On The Doorstep
Inside Information

Not At Home
Fire And Water

The Gathering Of The Clouds
A Thief In The Night

The Clouds Burst
The Return Journey
The Last Stage

If we start on Wednesday or Thursday, we finish next Thursday or Friday.
 
N

Neuromancer

Member
One of my favorite books of all time, perhaps my favorite.

So who's pro-dwarf and who's pro-Laketown human, here? Just want to know who my friends are.
 
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