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Shocking News: Greg Rucka details DC and Marvel's Shitty Treatment of People

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N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
I'm sad that Rucka's ending his run on Punisher, cause he has been fantastic on it. Now he's getting into detail about why and how he's been treated by Marvel and DC. It's nothing we haven't heard before, but it's still annoying:

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=67563

His words are transcribed in the article:

Greg Rucka said:
I’ve reached the end of my Work For Hire rope. I’m enjoying The Punisher, but that’s not mine, it’s Marvel’s, and l knew that going in. I have spent a lot of my comics career in service of other masters, – and I’ve had enough of that for now. I’m sick to death of the way the Big Two treat people.

I gave seven very good years to DC and they took gross advantage of me. That’s partially my fault, but not entirely. At this point, I see no reason why I should have to put up with that, I can sink or swim on my own.

You are seeing a grotesque Hollywoodisation of the two main companies. There was at least a period where I felt that the way they wanted to make money was by telling the best story they could; now the quality of the work matters less than that the book comes out. There is far less a desire to see good work be done.

Dan DiDio has gone on record, and this is the same man that said Gotham Central would never be cancelled as long as he was there, telling people what a great book Gotham Central was, but it never made any money.

Well, take a look at your trade sales! That book has made nothing but money as a trade. What I’m now being told is, ”lt was never worth anything to us anyway.”So, you know what? They can stop selling the Batwoman: Elegy trade and stop selling the Wonder Woman trades and everything else I’ve done, because clearly I’ve not done anything of service and those guys aren’t making any money off me.

Right now, where the market is, I have no patience for it.

My run on Punisher ends on #16, and we are then doing a five-issue mini called War Zone and then I’m done. That’s it! The Powers-That-Be at Marvel, without talking to me, decreed that he’s going to join a team on another book.

That’s their choice, they own him, but I don’t have to be happy about it. I am glad I had the opportunity to work on the character and I’m proud of the work I’ve done.

Despite what the publishers say, their interest in the talent is minimal now, the interest is only in promoting the financial worth of their properties. That was not the case as of two or three years ago, when there was an ‘Exclusives war’, but that’s all gone by the wayside now. Ultimately, they are saying, “We don’t need you,’ because they can get a million more just like you.

For every person who passes on the opportunity to write Spider-Man or Superman, I guarantee there are 5000 hungry writers who would give their eye-teeth to do it. But just because they want to do it, it doesn’t mean they are capable of doing it. It comes down entirely to Warner Bros. realising what they owned but had not exploited. At the end of the Harry Potter franchise, they went “Oh, crap, we need something else fast’, looked over at Marvel’s very very successful film program.

DC are playing catch up with Marvel, because of things like The Avengers breaking six hundred million domestic. That’s a lot of money, I don’t begrudge Warner Bros wanting to make bank it would be like blaming a shark for eating, but l do think that the pursuit of that financial windfall bears a detrimental effect on the creative and artistic side.
Read more at http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=67563#IZ2CsjaZcAvcl7yJ.99
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G

Gr1mLock

Passing metallic gas
These kind of testimonials have become pretty frequent, and from very credible people. Suddenly Alan Moore doesn't strike me as paranoid.
 
D

DemiMatt

Member
They can stop selling the Batwoman: Elegy trade and stop selling the Wonder Woman trades and everything else I’ve done, because clearly I’ve not done anything of service and those guys aren’t making any money off me.
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Rucka is one of my favorite writers, I was absolutely livid when they stopped his run on Batwoman, it was one of my favorite books written. He was also nice enough to sign my entire run. I can't believe DC would stop selling his trades, a lot of them have been hard to find over the years. He's one of the writters who helped me stay away from reading comic books because I like the characters. IE Xmen, Superman, books that have high value but shit writters. You cant kick off guys like this because they know how to write a story/character so well.

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captainnapalm

captainnapalm

Member
Gr1mLock said:
These kind of testimonials have become pretty frequent, and from very credible people. Suddenly Alan Moore doesn't strike me as paranoid.
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Moore reckons comics were started in the thirties by mobsters and racketeers and their mercenary attitudes toward business have never really left the industry.

It's probably a lot worse now that comics don't even sell that much. They have much bigger fish to fry with these characters - films and toys and games and merchandise and things, so it's no surprise they run the comic companies by editorial fiat to facilitate the rest of their business in the most efficient way.

Sad, but not a surprise. And it does make for a lot of shitty comics. Personally, I think the best thing they can do for these characters is focus on handing power back to the creators and making the best possible comics they can.
 
G

gdt

Member
He should go do his own thing. He's a pretty big name and will keep an audience. Image or wherever the fuck will take you.
 
B

BuddyJoeHooker

Member
It sucks because anyone can tell that the guy just wanted to write good stories. I don't see how the companies are doing themselves favors by pushing these guys away. His Detective Comics was amazing, this was a comic I picked up just out of interest of Batwoman. He did brilliant work with JH Williams and later with Jock. Greg Rucka became a name on a comic that always presented quality and genuine care for the characters he was writing. At least we can look forward to his independent work.
 
J

Jhriad

Member
Sounds more like he was dumping all over DC and was unhappy with the direction Marvel was pushing for The Punisher.
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
DemiMatt said:
Rucka is one of my favorite writers, I was absolutely livid when they stopped his run on Batwoman, it was one of my favorite books written. He was also nice enough to sign my entire run. I can't believe DC would stop selling his trades, a lot of them have been hard to find over the years. He's one of the writters who helped me stay away from reading comic books because I like the characters. IE Xmen, Superman, books that have high value but shit writters. You cant kick off guys like this because they know how to write a story/character so well.
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I think he's actually saying that because DC claims that his works don't make any money and are commercially worthless, they should just stop selling his trades. He's obviously disagreeing with their comment, and using the trades for a point - his trades apparently sell so, how can they say that his books don't make money?
 
E

ericexpo

Member
Warner Bros actually realizing they own DC was prob the worst thing to happen to the company. 52 series was what got me into comics and seems like everyone that worked on it has been kicked to curb.
 
S

Spike Spiegel

Member
CaptYamato said:
inB4 Spike turns this around to blaming DC and only DC.
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Nope. I'm a huge fan of what Rucka was doing with Frank Castle, Rachel Cole-Alves, and the strong cast built around them, and it's incredibly sh*tty of Marvel to just up and say, "oh Greg listen: we're putting Punisher on a team book born of an idea Jeph Loeb had three years ago, so we're not gonna need your book anymore. Start wrapping it up." Rucka's involvement was the whole reason I started reading Punisher, and when he's gone I won't be following Frank to his new gig.

But since I hate disappointing people, I'll throw some gas on that DC hate-fire anyway. For those that don't know, the reason Greg left DC Comics in the first place was because he and JH Williams were slated to do a "Wonder Woman: Earth One" graphic novel, only for Didio to break his promise and hand it over to Grant Morrison instead. If you're familiar with Greg Rucka, then you know Wonder Woman is pretty much his favorite DC character to work with, and I imagine that getting to write a project like that would have been a dream job to him. The way Greg talks about it, it sounds like DC dangled that carrot in front of him for years while he worked on other assignments, then fed it to another horse.

Check out the September COMICS! OT for more, the links are all there.

EDIT: If you're interested in following Rucka's new works sans the Big Two, he'll have a new series at Image Comics coming in 2013 titled Lazarus, plus the second volume of Stumptown from Oni Press just began earlier this month.

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R

ReiGun

Member
Spike Spiegel said:
But since I hate disappointing people, I'll throw some gas on that DC hate-fire anyway. For those that don't know, the reason Greg left DC Comics in the first place was because he and JH Williams were slated to do a "Wonder Woman: Earth One" graphic novel, only for Didio to break his promise and hand it over to Grant Morrison instead. If you're familiar with Greg Rucka, then you know Wonder Woman is pretty much his favorite DC character to work with, and I imagine that getting to write a project like that would have been a dream job to him. The way Greg talks about it, it sounds like DC dangled that carrot in front of him for years while he worked on other assignments, then fed it to another horse.
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Yup.

"I, at one point, was supposed to write Wonder Woman Earth One like they did with Superman and Batman. JH [Williams] was going to draw it."

So what happened?

"I was told I was not going to do it. Dan Didio called me and told me he was giving it to someone else. And I said if you take that away from me I can no longer work for you because I have taken many a job for you, sir, on the promise of doing this and now you’re taking it away and I can no longer accept your promises any more. He had his reasons for doing it; this is not me throwing stones. This is just the way things shook out."
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Just an incredibly shitty thing to do, and while Grant Morrison's WW: E1 may end up good, I'd still rather have Rucka/Williams on it. Rucka just loves Wonder Woman, and his run on the character was probably the best.
 
P

Parch

Member
Gr1mLock said:
These kind of testimonials have become pretty frequent, and from very credible people. Suddenly Alan Moore doesn't strike me as paranoid.
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Creators don't need the big 2 to make a good coin anymore. That old business model is losing more and more of the top talent.

I'm sensing a change in the comic industry, and I think it's long overdue. There's a lot of fans fed up with DC and Marvel, and companies like Image are getting a lot of praise for their product. We'll never see the big 2 die, but I could see more balanced sales. 33% Marvel, 33% DC, 33% other companies? Seems like a fair balance to me.
 
Machine

Machine

Member
I'm surprised he stayed in comics as long as he did. I figured he was just another author that wanted to play around in comics for a year or two and leave (see Brad Meltzer, Tad Williams, Elizabeth Hand, and a few others).
 
B

bro1

Banned
Oh wow! This is awful! You mean to tell me at work your boss makes decisions without consulting you? Good to know that in all other careers that your boss will consult you on everything first.

Creative types need to understand that it's a business and decisions will be made that you have no control over. You want to get a paycheck? Do what your company tells you to do. You took a job with a company that is publicly owned and traded. They have only one priority; make money. Either swim with the stream of.get.the.fuck.out.


Don't like? Go into business for yourself. And then when you hire someone, and have to make a decision your employees don't like, think back to what your old boss did.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Even though there's a big movement towards indie books, it still feels like major talent will at least dip into superheroes at Marvel and DC just to build their name. That's a big audience that they can grab and then hopefully pull over into their other works.

Machine said:
I'm surprised he stayed in comics as long as he did. I figured he was just another author that wanted to play around in comics for a year or two and leave (see Brad Meltzer, Tad Williams, Elizabeth Hand, and a few others).
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He's not leaving comics. He's just going 100% into creator-owned stuff. He's got Lazarus and Stumptown. He keeps saying he might get to the third book of Whiteout.
 
G

Gr1mLock

Passing metallic gas
Parch said:
Creators don't need the big 2 to make a good coin anymore. That old business model is losing more and more of the top talent.

I'm sensing a change in the comic industry, and I think it's long overdue. There's a lot of fans fed up with DC and Marvel, and companies like Image are getting a lot of praise for their product. We'll never see the big 2 die, but I could see more balanced sales. 33% Marvel, 33% DC, 33% other companies? Seems like a fair balance to me.
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With the industry having struggled as it has for a while its pretty sad that the source material is now a facilitator for the supplemental (albeit much bigger) business. It really is all about the bottom line for every entertainment business.
 
B

Buddha Beam

Banned
nerdy1 said:
Oh wow! This is awful! You mean to tell me at work your boss makes decisions without consulting you? Good to know that in all other careers that your boss will consult you on everything first.

Creative types need to understand that it's a business and decisions will be made that you have no control over. You want to get a paycheck? Do what your company tells you to do. You took a job with a company that is publicly owned and traded. They have only one priority; make money. Either swim with the stream of.get.the.fuck.out.


Don't like? Go into business for yourself. And then when you hire someone, and have to make a decision your employees don't like, think back to what your old boss did.
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I kind of agree here, but don't. You have to bear in mind that you're talking about an industry that at this point is pretty much ONLY supported by the hardcore fans any more.
Plus the fact that for the longest time, comics biggest problem has arguably been the constant stream of rotating creators. You'll never establish an audience for a book if you keep changing the writer (and artist, to a lesser extent), but DC and Marvel are all about bringing someone on a book for 18 months at the most and then swapping them for someone "fresh" if the book isn't pulling in big money.
It's the same problem that plagues almost all businesses across the word – they're only focused on the immediate financial results, rather than what could come if there was a long, slow upward burn.

Comics in particular really do have an obligation to their core audiences, because without them, they go out of business (which is further evidence of the terrible business practices they run). This long term schizophrenic behavior by DC and Marvel is toxic.

So yeah, I agree that as a writer, Rucka and whoever are beholden to their bosses (and Rucka clearly knows that and says as much). The problem is their bosses – the editors and such – are making catastrophically stupid decisions.

I really hope Didio in particular retires or steps down soon. Not because I don't like him and his decisions while at DC, but because I really want him to be able to open up about how much Warners is forcing his hand.
 
S

see5harp

Member
Stumptown is better than any of his Punisher run. I say fuck DC and Marvel, I'd rather he do creator owned stuff at Image/Oni/etc. anyway.
 
Z

ZackieChan

Member
nerdy1 said:
Oh wow! This is awful! You mean to tell me at work your boss makes decisions without consulting you? Good to know that in all other careers that your boss will consult you on everything first.

Creative types need to understand that it's a business and decisions will be made that you have no control over. You want to get a paycheck? Do what your company tells you to do. You took a job with a company that is publicly owned and traded. They have only one priority; make money. Either swim with the stream of.get.the.fuck.out.


Don't like? Go into business for yourself. And then when you hire someone, and have to make a decision your employees don't like, think back to what your old boss did.
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Came in to write a rant like this. Also, this guy needs to get some perspective. "They're taking THE PUNISHER" in a different direction than I'd like." Cry me a river, dude. Also, he's naming his arc "War Zone"? Hasn't that been done?

Like the quoted poster says, this is basically how the world works. Every other job is beholden to what a boss says. They hired you, they pay you, you do what they want. Is he really against Warner for wanting to make more money from their purchase of DC?

And yes, the "we don't make money from his books" thing is somewhat valid, because if you have to invest all of that into the books, just in the hopes that it's going to make money as a trade, that is a poor investment. While they MAY turn a profit later, why not focus on books that make money NOW?
 
A

AMUSIX

Member
I really don't see how this is an example of Marvel and DC treating people like shit. Looks like typical boss-worker relationship found in any larger business. I suppose the one thing that could be said is that Didio and Loeb both make shitty decisions...
 
B

Buddha Beam

Banned
ZackieChan said:
Came in to write a rant like this. Also, this guy needs to get some perspective. "They're taking THE PUNISHER" in a different direction than I'd like." Cry me a river, dude. Also, he's naming his arc "War Zone"? Hasn't that been done?

Like the quoted poster says, this is basically how the world works. Every other job is beholden to what a boss says. They hired you, they pay you, you do what they want. Is he really against Warner for wanting to make more money from their purchase of DC?

And yes, the "we don't make money from his books" thing is somewhat valid, because if you have to invest all of that into the books, just in the hopes that it's going to make money as a trade, that is a poor investment. While they MAY turn a profit later, why not focus on books that make money NOW?
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Not really – comic authors have been "writing for the trades" for well over a decade now. Putting out a low print floppy run and reaping the trade profits once it hits bookstores and such is a plenty valid decision. Hell, it's how the manga industry works in Japan. Heck, it's how all of American comics works, too. If it didn't work and was a money loser, Image would just encourage Kirkman to release a new Walking Dead trade every 6 months.
I do wish the comics industry in general would focus more on just putting out trades, though.
 
B

bro1

Banned
Buddha Beam said:
Not really – comic authors have been "writing for the trades" for well over a decade now. Putting out a low print floppy run and reaping the trade profits once it hits bookstores and such is a plenty valid decision. Hell, it's how the manga industry works in Japan. Heck, it's how all of American comics works, too. If it didn't work and was a money loser, Image would just encourage Kirkman to release a new Walking Dead trade every 6 months.
I do wish the comics industry in general would focus more on just putting out trades, though.
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I think the trades do well because of their price. Indivisual issues are a rip off. I buy them on sale or used off of half.com
 
C

crazygambit

Member
NeonZ said:
I think he's actually saying that because DC claims that his works don't make any money and are commercially worthless, they should just stop selling his trades. He's obviously disagreeing with their comment, and using the trades for a point - his trades apparently sell so, how can they say that his books don't make money?
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Just to be a devil's advocate, that's a perfectly feasible scenario. Even if a business doesn't make enough to cover its fixed costs it makes financial sense to continue production if it can cover it's variable costs (for a while at least, since theoretically there are no fixed costs in the long term).

In this case even if the trades didn't make enough to cover their production costs (like his salary for example), now that they've been created and they sell more than the printing costs it makes no sense to stop selling them. So his argument isn't very good.
 
F

Father_Brain

Banned
Spike Spiegel said:
Nope. I'm a huge fan of what Rucka was doing with Frank Castle, Rachel Cole-Alves, and the strong cast built around them, and it's incredibly sh*tty of Marvel to just up and say, "oh Greg listen: we're putting Punisher on a team book born of an idea Jeph Loeb had three years ago, so we're not gonna need your book anymore. Start wrapping it up." Rucka's involvement was the whole reason I started reading Punisher, and when he's gone I won't be following Frank to his new gig.
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If Marvel is to be believed, Rucka's run wasn't cancelled because of Thunderbolts and would have ended with War Zone regardless. It was selling quite poorly, sadly - the only Marvel ongoing books it outsold last month were Hulk, Defenders, New Mutants, and Captain America and ____, all of which are either being cancelled or (in Hulk's case) heavily revamped - so I don't see too much reason to doubt that.

Marvel's cancellation threshold has seemingly shifted a bit in recent years, but they've had a longstanding policy that every book has to carry its own weight in single-issue sales. One can certainly criticize that policy as shortsighted (as Rucka does for DC, regarding Gotham Central's trades) and it always sucks when a genuinely good book is cancelled due to poor sales, but it's something that comes with the territory when working for Marvel.
 
P

Ponn

Banned
Just my opinion, and probably wrong but I think both companies should shorten their monthly titles up and put these more creative writers who can write some damn good arc worthy shit on more graphic novel/trade releases. I actually loved it when they announced how they were doing the Earth One titles and why these trades have legs on them. They are not changing with their audience and no, digital is not the answer. Put their freshmen writers and artists on their monthly titles and let them earn their stars and they can push their shitty movie tie ins and agendas there. Let Snyder, Williams, Rucka, Morrison and whoever I missed just work on their stories to the best of their abilities in long form.

I just feel in the comic climate today these companies are not getting an accurate reading with monthly sales with everyone waiting for trades.
 
M

MC Safety

Member
Did I read that correctly? The Punisher is going to join a team?

What about that seems in line with the way the character has acted since the 1970s?
 
M

MG310

Member
Putting him on a team with Elektra probably works out...he can just kill her and then she can get revived in the next issue over and over again.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Spike Spiegel said:
Nope. I'm a huge fan of what Rucka was doing with Frank Castle, Rachel Cole-Alves, and the strong cast built around them, and it's incredibly sh*tty of Marvel to just up and say, "oh Greg listen: we're putting Punisher on a team book born of an idea Jeph Loeb had three years ago, so we're not gonna need your book anymore. Start wrapping it up." Rucka's involvement was the whole reason I started reading Punisher, and when he's gone I won't be following Frank to his new gig.
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SHOCKING FUCKING NEWS, JEPH LOEB RUINING ANOTHER GOOD THING AT MARVEL

God damn if I had to choose who would stay in the industry, and who would retire, I would give Rob Liefeld the top 5 books at Marvel and tell Loeb to pack his shit and go the fuck home.
 
Z

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Htown said:
SHOCKING FUCKING NEWS, JEPH LOEB RUINING ANOTHER GOOD THING AT MARVEL

God damn if I had to choose who would stay in the industry, and who would retire, I would give Rob Liefeld the top 5 books at Marvel and tell Loeb to pack his shit and go the fuck home.
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I got to agree Fuck Jeph Loeb
 
P

Parallax

best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Htown said:
SHOCKING FUCKING NEWS, JEPH LOEB RUINING ANOTHER GOOD THING AT MARVEL

God damn if I had to choose who would stay in the industry, and who would retire, I would give Rob Liefeld the top 5 books at Marvel and tell Loeb to pack his shit and go the fuck home.
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I don't want to deal with either of them. Ship em both off. Millar too.
 
G

GrandHarrier

Member
You know, intellectually I understand, but I just can't get into the vast majority of creator owned work. Either the art is bland, the story is meh, or its characters don't interest me. So while hearing these creators lament the state of things I really am enjoying my pull list as is and have no desire to change it.
 
L

LiquidSolid

Member
animlboogy said:
As usual, Hollywood intervention misses the entire fucking point. Marvel movies wouldn't be where they are if it wasn't for the tone set up by the great creators they had working on their books in the 00's. If comics are going to be seen as R&D, then that should entail letting creative minds bend the characters around. I mean, try and imagine those movies if 90's Marvel was the source material, or, hell, even 60's Marvel, which we all love but has no place being used as a basis for on-screen dialogue.



52 is everything DCnU wishes it was. A big, collaborative, fun story that raised the profile of many lesser-known characters, and came out on time not just monthly, but weekly.

They really struck gold with that one. I don't know all the details of how they pulled it off, but I'm sure a lot of it was editorially mandated, so why did that work so well, while DCnU seems to be pushing all the talent away for good? It's a shame they couldn't keep that up. Countdown was absolutely awful. Having read Final Crisis as a trade later, I'm kind of convinced that the editorial bungling of "counting down" with a story that had nothing to do with the actual event really fucked up how Final Crisis itself was received. A big crazy culmination of years of Morrison's work... promoted with an unrelated, mostly shitty weekly tie in book. I feel like DC has come off as fairly tone deaf since that period.
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Because they had four of the best writers in the industry (well, three and Geoff Johns) and Keith Giffen heading it. And while there was a lot of editorially mandated stuff (including an entire issue that was apparently rewritten), I still bet they had quite a bit of freedom to do what they wanted simply because of who they were.

Countdown, as far as I'm aware, was almost entirely editorially mandated. It was Didio's baby. And as he's a HORRENDOUS writer and clearly had no idea how to link it with Final Crisis (because Morrison likes to keep his scripts a secret, as he's had bad experiences with people fucking up his work), it was destined to fail. Dini's a good writer but he was never going to save that sinking ship.

Anyway, I've been completely disinterested in superhero comics for years now, so I'm interested to see what Rucka does with his Image books. I met him a couple of years ago, right before his Detective Comics (Batwoman) run finished and he was pretty awesome.
 
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