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Poll: 57 percent of Millennials oppose racial preferences for college, hiring
- Thread starter Antiochus
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PS3GamerKyle
Member
I don't like affirmative action. Meritocracy is a far preferable system of determining optimal candidates.
I'm not white and oppose race based selection. Just recently at work there was a call out for mentors that required the applicants to be either: female, or a visible minority, or disabled, or an aboriginal.
On a meritocratic basis, one of the best mentors in the department, the man that trained me and several others who happened to also be minorities, cannot apply for a position he is better than everyone else at.
Alternatively, there is a male Bosnian immigrant who arrived in Canada as a refugee back in the 90's cannot apply for such positions because they are white. Ignoring of course the fact that they would suffer any of the proposed challenges any other immigrant would face and one would hardly call a war refugee fleeing potential genocide 'priviledged' except as compared to those that did not or could not leave.
On a meritocratic basis, one of the best mentors in the department, the man that trained me and several others who happened to also be minorities, cannot apply for a position he is better than everyone else at.
Alternatively, there is a male Bosnian immigrant who arrived in Canada as a refugee back in the 90's cannot apply for such positions because they are white. Ignoring of course the fact that they would suffer any of the proposed challenges any other immigrant would face and one would hardly call a war refugee fleeing potential genocide 'priviledged' except as compared to those that did not or could not leave.
Racial preferences in college admissions hurt Asians far more than other ethnic groups, which would be hilarious of it wasn't so fucked up given this "make up for past discrimination" nonsense... apparently the Exclusion Acts and Japanese internment camps during WW2 don't count.
The Faceless Master
Member
i bet many of them also oppose the racial preference for hiring people based on seeing the applicant's name doesn't 'sound' white and passing, yet it still happens with great frequency.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, this seems like a fairer solution to me.
Video of Tim Wise debating for Affirmative Action (from Intelligence Squared).
captmcblack
Member
The bolded parts of this study are pretty lulzy, btw.
That said, I think once all of the damage of the centuries of racially-based socioeconomic inhibitors - which, until roughly 1965 were de jure for many groups of people - is completely and quantifiably fixed, then all "affirmative action" should be based completely on one's financial standing.
Until then, the reasons for affirmative action in its current form still exist and are still necessary to help level the playing field.
That said, I think once all of the damage of the centuries of racially-based socioeconomic inhibitors - which, until roughly 1965 were de jure for many groups of people - is completely and quantifiably fixed, then all "affirmative action" should be based completely on one's financial standing.
Until then, the reasons for affirmative action in its current form still exist and are still necessary to help level the playing field.
PolarBearsClub
Member
It seems fair but there has been so much research done that demonstrates that biases against race during hiring practices/criminal punishment exist regardless of merit or income status.
Zoramon089
Banned
The same colleges with AA usually have need based financial aid so that's already being done
not the same thing
Zoramon089
Banned
And there it is.
Explain? The two are mutually exclusive. You can't exclude people based on a specific characteristic/quality or lack of and still have a purely meritocratic system.
captmcblack
Member
This creates a false dichotomy.
Malaysia has one of the longest running most wide-spread forms of institutionalized affirmative action in the world, and though it has created a burgeoning middle-class of Malays, it has deepened racial divisions, sealed political control into the hands of predominantly one racial group (irrespective of population demographics), and created a level of insularity that has handicapped that group on an economic level.
One could hardly call affirmative action in such cases a support for meritocracy.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I understand the reasoning behind it, but I don't think affirmative action is the best way to tackle the problem. There has to be a better way than turning down qualified people and taking in unqualified people.
A lot of Black, Mexican and poor White people disproportionately live in bad neighbourhoods with terrible schools that they are forced to go to, since the better schools don't take students outside their designated areas. The system is rigged against these kids and it's not fair for them to have the same standards as someone from a better school. These problems need to be tackled at their root rather than trying to hide their symptoms.
A lot of Black, Mexican and poor White people disproportionately live in bad neighbourhoods with terrible schools that they are forced to go to, since the better schools don't take students outside their designated areas. The system is rigged against these kids and it's not fair for them to have the same standards as someone from a better school. These problems need to be tackled at their root rather than trying to hide their symptoms.
Zoe
Member
Then we'll never be rid of affirmative action because people will always be subconsciously biased toward their peers.
Zoramon089
Banned
I don't think AA means you get in despite being unqualified...or that would mean that the vast majority of minorities who benefit from AA would fail out which isn't the case
captmcblack
Member
Why is the assumption that affirmative action only - or even mostly - benefits unqualified people?
PolarBearsClub
Member
Boom. I've been arguing this for over ten years and have never heard a single reasonable counterpoint
Zoramon089
Banned
It's an easy justification for why AA is "wrong" even though it's not really true
The entire point of affirmative action is that you can't measure merit accurately in a system of preexisting advantages. If I beat you in chess, but you spotted me a rook, which of us is better at chess?
Even assuming this, if we make socioeconomically privileged groups egalitarian, then the subconscious biases will even out and the egalitarian structure will perpetuate itself.
Because there is a false assumption is that if there is one kid who gets in because of AA then there exists, somewhere, a kid who didn't get in because of AA.
I would wager that the survey responses probably have some respondents who normally would be receptive to AA and it's message but aren't right now because of how tough the college market and the job market is right now.
Helps justify willful ignorance.
The results are actually pretty unsurprising -- white people think affirmative action is unnecessary, people of color think it's still necessary. Not exactly front-page news!
dinazimmerman
Incurious Bastard
Universities and firms have racial preferences because they value diversity and the public image it brings. Why should government get in the way of this?
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Because it's just easier that way.
The video by Tim Wise paints quite a stark picture of racial divisions and racial advantage in the US. I can't really respond because I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about US history and politics. I'm just glad to live in a country where this debate doesn't really happen and doesn't need to happen.
elrechazado
Banned
Make economic status, not race, the criteria, and you are not violating the spirit of the constitution and you get the same or better results.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
You live in a country with no racial divides?
Nope! But still, I think even whites would mostly agree with the notions behind AA, aside from disadvantage there is a benefit in bringing in diversity to the school and workplace.
I'm not even sure how they could. Even if they outright ban universities and firms from looking at race as a factor there would still be a lot of under the table stuff going on. It would be worse, I think, if a ban were to take place because much more emphasis might be place on unverifiable factors such as how a person looks when they come in for the interview or their last name.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Personally, I don't believe in affirmative action. Make half your money based on academic and/or athleticism, and the other half for those who need financial assistance. With that, you'll cover all your bases and it's fair.
No. There are some problems with the disadvantaged indigenous populations but despite what the media might paint Australia is a fairly non-racist country. We don't have entrenched racial advantage/disadvantaged like the US.
Zoramon089
Banned
Maybe he lives in a super homogenous country because really, the only way for a country to have no racial divides is for it to pretty much only have 1 race...
I don't think it is possible to argue that you care about creating social and economic racial inequality in one breath, and then in the next breath argue that you are against one of the only ways to artificially ameliorate the effects of long-term racism, structural and institutional racism, and interpersonal privilege and have someone believe that you are both sincere in your belief in both and can reconcile those beliefs.
We live in a society that is heavily tilted to the disadvantage of minorities, particularly those who are black or brown. If you have a competition in which it takes place on that playing field, it is like a game of chess in which the black (race, not game color) player is forced to give pawn odds because he's been given an incomplete set and then acting as though the result of the game was the result of a meritocratic competition. It's not. It would have been meritocratic if someone had given the black player the missing pawn, though.
And while I do think that there should be greater support for people who are underprivileged with regards to economic class, differences in economic class do not fully account for the differences we see amongst racial groups. They are no doubt interrelated to some extent, but simply saying "Only help people based on economic class" isn't a real solution if you're worried about how race can be disadvantaging in a way that is distinct from the disadvantages associated with lower economic class.
Byakuya769
Member
My university changed the way it dolled out some diversity scholarships before I graduated. At first it was economically blind, but then it went to a focus on economically disadvantaged high schools in the state (they were predominately black). I saw first hand the diverse students become less prepared for university, less successful, and less engaged on campus.
The disconnect for many over AA is whether or not you believe that positive modeling is important. If you do, you're likely more concerned with candidates who look a certain way getting opportunities to perform at a high level (and hoping to see that cascade down), if not, then you may find economic AA a better choice because it's more "fair." However, pure economic AA turns a blind eye to structural biases and their effects.
Finally, most universities actually do quite a lot of economic based AA for disadvantaged whites. That never seems to get reported on, though.
The disconnect for many over AA is whether or not you believe that positive modeling is important. If you do, you're likely more concerned with candidates who look a certain way getting opportunities to perform at a high level (and hoping to see that cascade down), if not, then you may find economic AA a better choice because it's more "fair." However, pure economic AA turns a blind eye to structural biases and their effects.
Finally, most universities actually do quite a lot of economic based AA for disadvantaged whites. That never seems to get reported on, though.
I value diversity, especially in educational settings. Its not just an image or superficial advantage, having people from different cultures interacting and exchanging ideas is invaluable. It enriches everyone, not just minorities.
Also if education is truly concerned about the well being of everyone in society and making sure people from all backgrounds are exposed to the same advantages education provides, I'm not ready to do away with affirmative action and trust in the innate unbiased goodness of human beings.
Also if education is truly concerned about the well being of everyone in society and making sure people from all backgrounds are exposed to the same advantages education provides, I'm not ready to do away with affirmative action and trust in the innate unbiased goodness of human beings.
I think people hear "affirmative action" and don't think "Oh, a qualified black man who otherwise wouldn't have had a chance due to institutional and structural racism now is able to compete on a more level playing field" but instead think, "Oh, some unqualified person, probably black, is going to get that job. If they were good enough to get it on their own, they wouldn't need affirmative action!"
So in my view, it seems like a manifestation of subconscious racism.
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