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Wii-U streaming tech: custom form of wifi, advertised range is conservative

G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
So Polygon has dug into the background behind the Wii-U gamepad's streaming technology. Goes into a fair bit of detail.

http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/16/3653294/wii-u-range-test-gamepad

Second-screen gaming, the ability to view full maps, menus or even play an entire game on the 6-inch screen built into the WIi U's GamePad, is made possible by a special form of WiFi.

The technology, co-developed by Nintendo and wireless and broadband communication giant Broadcom, marries run-of-the-mill WiFi with a power bit of proprietary software to create a two-way stream of low-latency, high-definition video and controls between the WIi U and its innovative GamePad.
Click to expand...

The technology is built on top of something called WiFi Miracast, which Broadcom first developed last summer. It's a system that is specifically designed to deal with interference issues while maintaining liquid fast two-way communication.

Broadcom and Nintendo then teamed up to create a more solid system for the Wii U to GamePad connection.
Click to expand...

While the official specs for the Wii U's GamePad say that it will operate properly at a distance between 8 inches and a bit more than 26 feet from the console, Polygon found that we could get quite a bit more out of the connection. And set-ups in rural location could close to quadruple that distance.
Click to expand...

There's a video and more details at the link.
 
J

JordanKZ

Member
Miracast tech? In theory this means that the Wii U could interface with other Micracast enabled devices. Clever.
 
K

Kokonoe

Banned
I can't wait for modders to turn this into a streaming device for PC games and PC emulators.

Also, I think console modders can use the U Game Pad for portable Gamecubes, Dreamcasts, etc.
 
L

lednerg

Member
The guy in the first video said the IR window at the top of the GamePad is used to point at stuff. I'm 99% sure that's wrong, and that it is used for IR communications, specifically remote control functionality. Nowhere in the patents does it say it has a Wiimote-type IR camera in it for pointing.
 
B

Bony Manifesto

Member
Aquamarine said:
So basically, it works anywhere that a WiFi connection with a good amount of bars would?

That's great to know.
Click to expand...

Less, as they will have undoubtedly stripped out all the technical behind-the-scenes stuff that maximises the range and accuracy of wifi networking in favour of a more lag-free experience.
 
B

Busta SMurk

Member
Kokonoe said:
I can't wait for modders to turn this into a streaming device for PC games and PC emulators.

Also, I think console modders can use the U Game Pad for portable Gamecubes, Dreamcasts, etc.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding! This is what I immediately thought of when I read this. As cool as this tech is on it's own, if modders get playing with it, I wonder what other cool features they can implement alongside the PC.
 
H

HisshouBuraiKen

Member
Kokonoe said:
I can't wait for modders to turn this into a streaming device for PC games and PC emulators.

Also, I think console modders can use the U Game Pad for portable Gamecubes, Dreamcasts, etc.
Click to expand...

I don't think this will happen for a long time, if it ever does. Remember there are compression and decompression steps that happen in there as well. It's not like the WiiU just sees the Gamepad as a second monitor or something, it's sending a series of compressed images that the gamepad then decompresses. Plus, Nintendo has probably learned a lot of lessons on the security front after the Wii was cracked wide open within a year.
 
W

watershed

Banned
I can only think of all the gamers who, first thing out of the box, will be testing the range of the gamepad all over the house and in every room.
 
M

marc^o^

Nintendo's Pro Bono PR Firm
EmmanuelMunoz said:
It's mentioned near the end of the article that it is possible.
Click to expand...
Well that's awesome, I only read gofreak quotes.

And it's possible that even that longer range could be extended.

While Bekis was clear that Nintendo hasn't talked about the idea of using repeaters or range extenders with the Wii U and GamePad, he did say that the technology supports their use.

"I don't think this has been something that has been discussed in a lot of detail," he said. "But the technology would allow it."
Click to expand...
That would mean I could play Wii U from my bed :)))

With this and 2 GamePads, kids could play a console game, head to head online, each in their room/bed. We live in formidable times.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
blu said:
For reference, here's NVIDIA's attempt at Miracast in a Tegra3 environment:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6116/...lity-with-wifi-display-miracast-specification

(pay attention to the noticeable lag in the connection)
Click to expand...

There would be less lag going from console to handheld.
Less (or non-existant) digital processing, as well as a lower resolution to compress and send over, as opposed to a 1080p signal.

I think if that video were the other way around, there would be no lag. I think what Nintendo has done is just strengthen the integrity of the stream, which is essential and difficult task for a gaming device.
 
Y

Ydahs

Member
Would have never guessed it's using Miracast. That's pretty crazy, considering how new this technology is. The streaming technology found in the WiiU is clearly its most 'next-gen' feature.

Kokonoe said:
I can't wait for modders to turn this into a streaming device for PC games and PC emulators.

Also, I think console modders can use the U Game Pad for portable Gamecubes, Dreamcasts, etc.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's gonna be so easy since the majority of PCs and laptops are not Wi-Fi Direct compatible. You would need an adapter to support it and even then, it sounds like it's more of a proprietary implementation of Miracast instead of just plain Miracast. It's still a new and emerging technology, so unfortunately it might take quite some time before we see modders make any serious progress.

Also:

"On the performance side Intel is promising 60ms latency for WiDi 3.5 when used with an Ivy Bridge based system (250ms with Sandy Bridge) and a 2nd generation (or newer) WiDi receiver. Later this year we'll see an updated Netgear Push2TV WiDi receiver that's a lot smaller with a starting price of $59.99."
- Source

It's gonna be a tough ask for modders to get the latency at a playable level. By comparison, the WiiU's latency is reported to be only 16ms. That's insane.

blu said:
For reference, here's NVIDIA's attempt at Miracast in a Tegra3 environment:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6116/...lity-with-wifi-display-miracast-specification

(pay attention to the noticeable lag in the connection)
Click to expand...
I think I saw this earlier in the year. Nintendo had an Iwata's Ask where it talked about how they handled compression and decompression from console to gamepad, so lag shouldn't be an issue at all. I guess that's why they're not just using plain Miracast, but proprietary built on top of Miracast with the help of Broadcom specifically specifically for the purpose of low latency. It might be the reason why it's restricted to 60fps at 480p.
 
N

nickcv

Member
Ydahs said:
Would have never guessed it's using Miracast. That's pretty crazy, considering how new this technology is. The streaming technology found in the WiiU is clearly its most 'next-gen' feature.



I don't think it's gonna be so easy since the majority of PCs and laptops are not Wi-Fi Direct compatible. You would need an adapter to support it and even then, it sounds like it's more of a proprietary implementation of Miracast instead of just plain Miracast. It's still a new and emerging technology, so unfortunately it might take quite some time before we see modders make any serious progress.

Also:

"On the performance side Intel is promising 60ms latency for WiDi 3.5 when used with an Ivy Bridge based system (250ms with Sandy Bridge) and a 2nd generation (or newer) WiDi receiver. Later this year we'll see an updated Netgear Push2TV WiDi receiver that's a lot smaller with a starting price of $59.99."
- Source

It's gonna be a tough ask for modders to get the latency at a playable level. By comparison, the WiiU's latency is reported to be only 16ms. That's insane.


I think I saw this earlier in the year. Nintendo had an Iwata's Ask where it talked about how they handled compression and decompression from console to gamepad, so lag shouldn't be an issue at all. I guess that's why they're not just using plain Miracast, but proprietary built on top of Miracast with the help of Broadcom specifically specifically for the purpose of low latency. It might be the reason why it's restricted to 60fps at 480p.
Click to expand...


really informative, thanks.
and i totally agree with this:
The streaming technology found in the WiiU is clearly its most 'next-gen' feature.
Click to expand...
 
D

DanteRavenkin

Member
Once again, I'm tremendously excited for the possibilities that can come from Nintendo's ideas. One can only imagine what the future may hold!
 
Smiles and Cries

Smiles and Cries

Member
blu said:
For reference, here's NVIDIA's attempt at Miracast in a Tegra3 environment:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6116/...lity-with-wifi-display-miracast-specification

(pay attention to the noticeable lag in the connection)
Click to expand...

Yeah now we know the tech but since Nintendo worked with Broadcom as we already knew this from Iwata Asks GamePad they put in a lot of effort to get this tighter, Maybe some other companies can try to match the Gamepad's success soon enough.

The tech is promising.
 
T

Thraktor

Member
electricpirate said:
is this one of those gaf jokes that I'm missing? This comment makes no sense.
Click to expand...

The WiFi standard is normally implemented with TCP/IP as the network and transport layers (3 & 4 in the OSI model). While the Gamepad's streaming tech is based on 802.11n, it only implements the physical (and possibly data link) layers, and everything above that is proprietary.

phosphor112 said:
Why would anyone use a repeater with this? Latency would shoot up the farther you got...
Click to expand...

Not really. Repeaters only work on the physical layer (ie it takes in the waveforms and rebroadcasts them with a stronger signal), so shouldn't affect latency to any significant degree.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I wonder if its two way, or if gamepad inputs are sent via Bluetooth? And how about camera images from the gamepad?
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Thraktor said:
The WiFi standard is normally implemented with TCP/IP as the network and transport layers (3 & 4 in the OSI model). While the Gamepad's streaming tech is based on 802.11n, it only implements the physical (and possibly data link) layers, and everything above that is proprietary.



Not really. Repeaters only work on the physical layer (ie it takes in the waveforms and rebroadcasts them with a stronger signal), so shouldn't affect latency to any significant degree.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't affect it if you're close.. but you still have to broadcast the signal back to the Wii U. It would increase latency, no argument.
 
M

MikeE21286

Member
Yeah Sony needs to stay away from any future advertising that the Vita and PS3 can do the same thing as the WiiU. It becomes more and more apparent the more we learn about the WiiU that those types of claims are blatantly false.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
MikeE21286 said:
Yeah Sony needs to stay away from any future advertising that the Vita and PS3 can do the same thing as the WiiU. It becomes more and more apparent the more we learn about the WiiU that those types of claims are blatantly false.
Click to expand...

Conceptually it's the same. Having "console content" on a handheld. In practice, it's different, but as far as Sony is concerned, the consumer doesn't need to know that. It wouldn't be false advertising if they did as well.
 
H

herod

Member
Thraktor said:
The WiFi standard is normally implemented with TCP/IP as the network and transport layers (3 & 4 in the OSI model). While the Gamepad's streaming tech is based on 802.11n, it only implements the physical (and possibly data link) layers, and everything above that is proprietary.
Click to expand...

Indeed, unlike "competing" solutions.
 
M

MadeInBeats

Banned
Smiles and Cries said:
Yeah now we know the tech but since Nintendo worked with Broadcom as we already knew this from Iwata Asks GamePad they put in a lot of effort to get this tighter, Maybe some other companies can try to match the Gamepad's success soon enough.

The tech is promising.
Click to expand...

I wonder how much, if any, of the patent Nintendo owns.
 
T

Thraktor

Member
phosphor112 said:
It shouldn't affect it if you're close.. but you still have to broadcast the signal back to the Wii U. It would increase latency, no argument.
Click to expand...

I didn't say there would be zero increase in latency, I said it wouldn't be significant. People play on TVs with 100ms+ of lag, they're not going to notice a tiny increase over the Gamepad's 16ms.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
My concern after reading the article is about when two or three Wii U systems are working near each other. Sure, you may be able to play in your bathroom now, but what about when the Wii U becomes more popular?

Kokonoe said:
I can't wait for modders to turn this into a streaming device for PC games and PC emulators.
Click to expand...

The data is likely encrypted. If 1) the data is decrypted, and 2) the video/data format is reverse engineered, that can be a reality. The GamePad also has the ability to run programs/firmware when the Wii U is powered off, and it'd be really, really neat if we had custom firmwares for that.
 
Twilight Princess

Twilight Princess

Member
liger05 said:
laughable that people think that or somehow smartglass is the same thing
Click to expand...
Yeah, I imagine these people have never used any remote control apps on a tablet, they're slow, they disconnect often, and they all suck.
The UPad is light years ahead of competition in terms fruidity.
(yes I know light years is a measure of distance)
 
Y

Ydahs

Member
Why would you do that? said:
My concern after reading the article is about when two or three Wii U systems are working near each other. Sure, you may be able to play in your bathroom now, but what about when the Wii U becomes more popular?
Click to expand...
Shouldn't be an issue since it's peer to peer. This is only a guess, but since both console and gamepad are synced, so they'll be receiving and sending data based on a unique ID.
 
D

Dragon

Banned
Ydahs said:
Shouldn't be an issue since it's peer to peer. This is only a guess, but since both console and gamepad are synced, so they'll be receiving and sending data based on a unique ID.
Click to expand...

If it's through wifi there definitely can be a level of interference though. Where I live in NYC I have 45 Wifi Networks that I can see in my apartment alone. I guess until we know more information like frequency, etc we won't know if it's going to be a huge problem.
 
D

Durante

Member
The technology, co-developed by Nintendo and wireless and broadband communication giant Broadcom, marries run-of-the-mill WiFi with a power bit of proprietary software to create a two-way stream of low-latency, high-definition video and controls between the WIi U and its innovative GamePad.
Click to expand...
If you take this quote at face value, it means that the hardware is simply standard WiFi, with custom software. Which would shoot down any arguments as to an increase in production cost for the gamepad due to custom communication hardware.

MikeE21286 said:
Yeah Sony needs to stay away from any future advertising that the Vita and PS3 can do the same thing as the WiiU. It becomes more and more apparent the more we learn about the WiiU that those types of claims are blatantly false.
Click to expand...
Huh? If anything, this article shows that it's true in hardware, they just need a better software stack.
 
K

KojiKnight

Member
Dragon said:
If it's through wifi there definitely can be a level of interference though. Where I live in NYC I have 45 Wifi Networks that I can see in my apartment alone. I guess until we know more information like frequency, etc we won't know if it's going to be a huge problem.
Click to expand...

Remember, this system was designed with Tokyo in mind...
 
M

Mardak

Member
herod said:
the important point to note here is the complete rejection of tcp/ip.
Click to expand...
Is that surprising? TCP/IP was developed for wired connections. If it detects data is missing, it starts an exponential back-off -- this means because TCP thinks too many devices communicating on the shared wire at the same time, i.e., congestion, everyone cuts their rate in half. However, packet loss from interference appears the same to TCP as congestion, so wireless signals that happen to get lost due to a hand, body, microwave, wall, etc. starts slowing down the connection significantly.

Additionally, TCP was designed to reliably send all the data, but in this use case for Wii U, who cares that if a 16x16 pixel block from 60 frames ago or 1 second ago was missing? TCP would have tried to resend that same block until the Gamepad gets it even though it would be useless to show.
 
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