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The Counter Revolution: DRM Free Kickstarter, Indie, and GoG Games

N

nbthedude

Member
anti-drm5quuu0.jpg


The Issue

While the PC platform has seen a recent "always online" trend in UbiSoft titles, Diablo 3 and Sim City, the same platform has also seen a rise in the popularity of DRM free games. I have funded 7 kickstarter games in the last year, all of them have promised DRM free delivery. I bought Witcher 2 on GoG solely because of the pre-load but ended up getting the DRM free version as a result. I have many games from Indie bundles, all are DRM free. This is a growing trend in the PC space, at least among smaller devs, who now often even go out of their way to advertise DRM free versions of their games.

Many signs point to consoles going a similar direction to the recent "always online" escapades of big third party publishers, or at least maintaining their locked to the disc/system/account or buy online passes approach. And we have seen little evidence that big publishers in the PC space have a great deal of remorse, despite some bumpy launch problems. The DRM free movement is thus even more important because it serves as a counter-trend giving you even more rights and freedoms than you ever had before with your games. Copy them to disc, throw them on a thumb drive, make as many back up copys as your heart desires.


Benefits of DRM Free Games

-no concern about lack of future availability
-easier to mod
-easy to back up
-easy to transfer between machines
-faster, smoother running software
-no middleman between the developer and the audience
-no cost to developers
-no Spyware
-no online requirements, ever!

Ways to Get DRM Free Games Easily

Humble Bundle Store
Indie Gala
Groupees
Kickstarter
Good Old Games
Desura
IndieGoGo
Straight from the Devs!


Questions for Discussion

1.Do you ever forsee any big publishers ever going DRM free? If so, who?

2.After recent developments, has your view of DRM free games changed? Would it serve as a real incentive to pick up a game?

3. What if Valve offered devs a clearly labeled DRM free hosting option on Steam? Could they? Would they? What would be the impact?

4. DRM free console games. Is it even a possibility? Would it be an important incentive for you if it did exist?

5. Would you buy DRM free over Steam games? If not, why not?

6. Do you foresee the DRM free trend growing or shrinking in the future?
 
N

nbthedude

Member
picture39uouta.png


Legality Issues In Overriding DRM/Changing DRM Laws

In the U.S.

The Digital Millenium Copyright Act (1998)

From Wikipedia:
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is an amendment to United States copyright law, passed unanimously on May 14, 1998, which criminalizes the production and dissemination of technology that allows users to circumvent technical copy-restriction methods. Under the Act, circumvention of a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work is illegal if done with the primary intent of violating the rights of copyright holders.[verification needed] (For a more detailed analysis of the statute, see WIPO Copyright and Performances and Phonograms Treaties Implementation Act.)
Reverse engineering of existing systems is expressly permitted under the Act under specific conditions. nder the reverse engineering safe harbor, circumvention necessary to achieve interoperability with other software is specifically authorized. See 17 U.S.C. Sec. 1201(f). Open-source software to decrypt content scrambled with the Content Scrambling System and other encryption techniques presents an intractable problem with the application of the Act. Much depends on the intent of the actor. If the decryption is done for the purpose of achieving interoperability of open source operating systems with proprietary operating systems, the circumvention would be protected by Section 1201(f) the Act. Cf., Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Corley, 273 F.3d 429 (2d Cir. 2001) at notes 5 and 16. However, dissemination of such software for the purpose of violating or encouraging others to violate copyrights has been held illegal.
Click to expand...

In the U.K:

From Tech Dirt:

[T]he UK government has published a list of the legislative changes it proposes to make (pdf).
These are welcome but hardly revolutionary -- more a matter of dragging UK copyright law into the 21st century. They include:
a private copying exception that lets people make copies of content they have bought, but only for their personal use;

simpler rules for using copyright material in the education sector;

permission for the limited quotation of copyright works for any purpose, as long as the source is acknowledged;

a limited copying exception for parody, caricature and pastiche;

a research and private study exception;

permission to use published research results for data analysis, but only if it is for non-commercial purposes;

permission for people with disabilities to obtain copyright works in an accessible form if there is none on the market;

archiving and preservation exceptions, designed for museums, galleries and libraries;

wider exceptions for public bodies to share some third-party information online.
Click to expand...

The E.U:

From Billboard.com

The European Commission said it was worried about Microsoft's ability to "tip" the burgeoning demand for digital rights management (DRM) software in its favor, turning what is already a "leading position"' in that market into a dominant one. Microsoft, based on Redmond, Wash., is the world's largest software provider.

That echoes charges the EU made in its landmark decision against Microsoft last spring, when the software giant was ordered to remove its Media Player program from its ubiquitous Windows operating system to prevent that segment of the market from "tipping" to a Microsoft monopoly.

Working together, Microsoft and Time Warner aim to develop new standards in the market for DRM technology, which also is expected to be increasingly used in the corporate world for the secure exchange of documents online.

The EU delayed its decision by 10 days to review concessions offered by the companies to address potential competition problems. But EU spokeswoman Amelia Torres said, "the commission's concerns were not entirely addressed."

Spokespeople for both companies declined to comment on specifics, saying only that they were "cooperating fully" with the probe.

"We understand that this is a complex area," Microsoft spokesman Dirk Delmartino added.

The EU could still decide to clear the deal, but the opening of a relatively rare, four-month investigation indicates serious reservations. It also could add to trans-Atlantic tensions over antitrust policy, with U.S. critics accusing the EU of undermining global business.
Click to expand...

More to come.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
imageszcyxv.jpg



DRM Crimes Against Humanity: A.K.A. The Gamer's Shit List." (Running Tally)
Blizzard for Mandatory Online in Diablo 3
EA for all kinds of F-ed up S in Sim City

Those Who Have Seen The Error Of Their Ways (Well... sorta.)
Ubisoft Changes PC DRM Policy
Capcom Ditches Off Line Penalties in SF4

Proponents of DRM Free Doublespeak

Steve Jobs said:
"Imagine a world where every online store sells DRM-free music encoded in open licensable formats," Jobs wrote. "In such a world, any player can play music purchased from any store, and any store can sell music which is playable on all players. This is clearly the best alternative for consumers, and Apple would embrace it in a heartbeat."
Click to expand...

Bill Gates said:
"DRM is not where it should be. . . it causes too much pain for legitmate buyers. . . . People should just buy a cd and rip it. You are legal then."
Click to expand...

Gabe Newell said:
"[M]ost DRM strategies are just dumb" because they only decrease the value of a game in the consumer's eyes. Newell suggests combating piracy by "[creating] greater value for customers through service value"
Click to expand...

The Steam Shut Down Urban Legend

Legend has it that if Steam ever shut down Gabe Newell would himself flip some kind of magical switch on his way out the door like a big lovable DRM Free Santa Claus, but if you look online for tangible evidence of this, you will likely find not find any. It is not even clear Newell would have the legal right to do something of this sort. Moreover, the Steam EULA contains this gem:

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).
Click to expand...


As John Walker from Rock, Paper, Shotgun succintly points out,

Whether bought through Steam, Origin, or any other digital download service that requires a live account to play them, you are at best renting those games, with no guarantee that you’ll be able to continue to do so. And those bans can be issued without a stated or proven reason – it’s in the agreements you click “Agree” to when you sign up an account, or buy a new game.
Click to expand...

Other Links to Articles of Interest:

"Do You Truly Own Your E-books?" -Salon.com
"It's Not Just Laws, It Is Also Private Sector Rules." -New York Times.com
"Do We Own Our Steam Games?"-Rock, Paper, Shotgun
A List of DRM Free Games on Steam
Sim City DRM Removal Petition
More to Come.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
jkanownik said:
Note that DRM in games is usually used to mitigate investment risk. Lower investment/risk =no DRM.
Click to expand...

Could not you say the same thing about always online?

And both are only beneficial to mitigate investment risks if they do not cause a significant new risk in consumer rejection.
 
P

Persona7

Banned
Yeah, I always look at gog/developers website first to see if they have a game I am interested in for sale.

I avoid steam and origin as much as I can.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Persona7 said:
Yeah, I always look at gog/developers website first to see if they have a game I am interested in for sale.

I avoid steam and origin as much as I can.
Click to expand...

I actually never used to. I was pretty much console only until couple years ago. Then I became pretty biased toward Steam after getting a PC two years ago. But after the recent stuff about new DRM in consoles and the Sim City/Diablo fiascos, I will seek out DRM free content first and foremost from here on out.
 
Z

zoku88

Member
I have no problem with DRM, theoretically, if it never gets in my way.

Unfortunately, "never getting in your way" almost never happens.

For a while, Blu-rays were really troublesome to play in Linux because of the DRM.

And, of course, always-on DRM sucks because it means you can only play when the publisher/developer allows you to.

EDIT: I have no problem with DRM clients like Steam or Origin, especially since it means that I don't have the manage software myself. (I'm a Linux person, so being lazy with software management is inherent in me :p )
 
G

Game Guru

Member
I imagine more and more people will demand their things to be DRM-Free because, quite frankly, companies who desire DRM appear to be focusing their efforts on a few specific companies. Who is to say that companies like Amazon or Steam won't eventually demand publishers to have DRM-Free versions of their items? That's the rub of relying on a few specific companies for distribution... They could become powerful enough to demand better terms for customers, especially if customers start drifting towards DRM-Free indie material.

Really, DRM exists as the old established models trying to control a new model which allows almost anyone to publish a song, a book, a comic, a video, or a game as long as they have the drive and the will to do it.
 
V

Visualante2

Member
I get the feeling most people ctrl + f "Steam" on any kickstarter page before deciding if they will back it.

I haven't bought any games that are billed as services, and I've been actively put off some games that I would have been interested had they not been so obtrusive.

Because I haven't had any issues with Steamworks as a DRM, I will always go for that when possible. But I usually buy direct from the developer which nets me both DRM free and a Steam key, not to mention a healthy cut for them. As soon as Steamworks turns to shit or fails on me then I'll go fully DRM free. I still think Steamworks is beholden to a master server that collates server IPs for people using the server browser because the Ship's master server appears to be down. Now you have to type in the IP manually.

If it's F2P I don't really care either way as long as it's not creating massive barriers for me to play.

Further Benefits of DRM Free Games: no spyware
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
I can't imagine games getting any real budget if the investment doesn't have some sort of protection. The vast majority have accepted some degree of DRM as a reality that they have to live with so they pick the service with the least offensive DRM and the best feature set.
 
V

Vaporak

Member
nbthedude said:
3. What if Valve offered devs a DRM free hosting option on Steam? Could they? Would they? What would be the impact?
Click to expand...

I'd just like to chime in to note that it seems Valve already do this, iirc games have gone up on steam DRM free before for a time before getting the DRM activated later.
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
Vaporak said:
I'd just like to chime in to note that it seems Valve already do this, iirc games have gone up on steam DRM free before for a time before getting the DRM activated later.
Click to expand...

I believe most older games can literally have their folders copied out and dropped on a thumbdrive. Pubs can't be bothered to put DRM on an old ass .exe.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Stallion Free said:
I believe most older games can literally have their folders copied out and dropped on a thumbdrive. Pubs can't be bothered to put DRM on an old ass .exe.
Click to expand...

In that case, it should be clearly labeled which games ARE DRM free so we know what we are buying and those pubs can benefit.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Stallion Free said:
Devs don't care and Valve doesn't care.

Judging by GOG and Steam, the consumer doesn't care either.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should start caring? I know my mind has started to change. I mean not to the point where I'd refuse to buy DRM games, but definitely to the point that DRM free is a nice benefit that I value.

There are some surprising big games on that Steam DRM free list: Fallout 3, Legend of Grimrock, Alpha Protocol, Far Cry 2, Rayman Origins, Crusader Kings 2, etc.
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
nbthedude said:
Maybe we should start caring? I know my mind has started to change. I mean not to the point where I'd refuse to buy DRM games, but definitely to the point that DRM free is a nice benefit that I value.
Click to expand...

Most people seem to value somewhat cheat protected/functional multiplayer, friends lists, leaderboards, cloud saves, etc. over being able to make infinity back up copies that can be played from thumbdrives.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Stallion Free said:
Most people seem to value somewhat cheat protected/functional multiplayer, friends lists, leaderboards, cloud saves, etc. over being able to make infinity back up copies that can be played from thumbdrives.
Click to expand...

Why can't that stuff be server side? Also a number of those DRM free Steam games have ALL those features.
 
eot

eot

Banned
Vaporak said:
I'd just like to chime in to note that it seems Valve already do this, iirc games have gone up on steam DRM free before for a time before getting the DRM activated later.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried moving them outside the Steam folder, but some games work if you just double click the .exe even without Steam running. ArmA II for example.
 
S

Stallion Free

Cock Encumbered
nbthedude said:
Why can't that stuff be server side? Also a number of those DRM free Steam games have ALL those features.
Click to expand...

Most of the games on that GOG list do not have multiplayer or if they do they dead community wise. If a game like COD was DRM free the multiplayer would be a complete clusterfuck.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
SteveWinwood said:
Oh now you want things server side Mr anti drm.

This is a jk btw.
Click to expand...

Well, I did mean on official servers anyway. Surely they could regulate their own servers.

But I also don't see a problem with letting people use unofficial servers where they can just do whatever the hell they want. They aren't even using your bandwidth in that case.
 
B

Bittercup

Member
Great thread, thanks.
Unfortunately I don't think the DRM trend will ever get smaller in the future unless something bad happens that makes customers more careful. And there's too much acceptance for any publisher to stop now.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic. That's probably because, when publishers started to use DRM I was completely certain that this was just some idea that will be dropped soon again because customers hate it and it helps zero against piracy (everything still cracked at day 1 or at best 1-2 days after). Completely useless development.
But I never thought that years later many customers won't hate it any more and will be ok with it and that DRM probably aims more against the used game market instead of piracy and in this regard it works really well.
And with the recent tries of always-online-DRM it even helps against piracy as well. So I rather see a trend towards always-online instead of DRM-free :/
When they handle the server problems better I guess it's just a matter of time until it's no longer a big deal.

For me this development nearly killed the PC as a gaming platform. I bought Witcher 2 and Alan Wake and smaller games like FTL but overall there are few games I'm interested in that are DRM-free.
For me it's just the dependency that makes DRM unacceptable. I don't have a problem with copy protection in general and I don't need to be able to copy my games on thumb drives are anything like that.
It's just without DRM it's only between me and the game whether I can run it. As long as I have the hardware required (PC, console, handheld etc) and the game itself I can play it and no one and nothing can stop me. DRM suddenly adds a third party where I'm dependant to a DRM-platform which has the final say in whether I can play the game where I have zero influence.

Just a thought to the opening posts: I don't think Gabe Newell was talking about DRM-free with his comment about "[M]ost DRM strategies are just dumb" and more about more restrictive types of DRM. And it feels kind of weird when Steam had such a big impact in making DRM popular on PC to name Gabe Newell as a speaker for DRM-free gaming.
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
nbthedude said:
Well, I did mean on official servers anyway. Surely they could regulate their own servers.

But I also don't see a problem with letting people use unofficial servers where they can just do whatever the hell they want. They aren't even using your bandwidth in that case.
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like piracy.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
CopyCat said:
Just a thought to the opening posts: I don't think Gabe Newell was talking about DRM-free with his comment about "[M]ost DRM strategies are just dumb" and more about more restrictive types of DRM. And it feels kind of weird when Steam had such a big impact in making DRM popular on PC to name Gabe Newell as a speaker for DRM-free gaming.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is why that category is called "Proponents of DRM Doublespeak." Same applies to Gates and Jobs.
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
The next few years, particularly the console hardware transition, is going to be a watershed period for determining which companies are at war with their customers, and which ones treat consumers with a modicum of respect.

So far the Shit List comprises of EA, and no doubt many others people are able to elaborate further upon.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Yagharek said:
The next few years, particularly the console hardware transition, is going to be a watershed period for determining which companies are at war with their customers, and which ones treat consumers with a modicum of respect.

So far the Shit List comprises of EA, and no doubt many others people are able to elaborate further upon.
Click to expand...

Maybe I should add a section for "DRM Crimes Against Humanity: A.K.A. The Gamer's Shit List."
 
Y

Yagharek

Member
nbthedude said:
Maybe I should add a section for "DRM Crimes Against Humanity: A.K.A. The Gamer's Shit List."
Click to expand...

Yep. What are the criteria?
Games with always on DRM?
Games with online passes?
Games with scam freemium rorts (Real Racing 3 for example)?

I'd argue its better to do it on a title by title basis though, as some publishers do good in one game then bad in another. Reward the good ones.
 
V

Vaporak

Member
Stallion Free said:
Most of the games on that GOG list do not have multiplayer or if they do they dead community wise. If a game like COD was DRM free the multiplayer would be a complete clusterfuck.
Click to expand...

You seem to be confusing DRM with cheat detection and prevention, they are two completely separate issues and programming tasks.
 
N

nbthedude

Member
Yagharek said:
Yep. What are the criteria?
Games with always on DRM?
Games with online passes?
Games with scam freemium rorts (Real Racing 3 for example)?

I'd argue its better to do it on a title by title basis though, as some publishers do good in one game then bad in another. Reward the good ones.
Click to expand...

Done. And all of the above. Submissions welcome.

I also added a positive counter category for companies that have turned to the path of righteousness.
 
G

Game Guru

Member
Cheating detection and prevention can be done serverside on the official servers run by the company for the game. There is no reason why a person can't be banned from the official servers after being identified as a cheater by said system, while still being free to mess around on unofficial servers created by the fans. If people want a cheat-free game, they can get on the official servers.
 
W

water1111

Banned
I'm still going to stand by my "no steam, no buy" motto, Most the good games are steam activated thought and you're going to miss ALOT by just buying from GOG and other indie stores.

And I love how everybody forgets GoG "closed" in 2010, and now nobody could download their games anybody, but that's okay because its DRM-FREE and shit.
 
G

GenericUserName

Banned
You forgot to add IndieGoGo to the list. Yes, it's not as big as KS, and it works differently, but it's worth mentioning along KS.

water1111 said:
I'm still going to stand by my "no steam, no buy" motto, Most the good games are steam activated thought and you're going to miss ALOT by just buying from GOG and other indie stores.
Click to expand...
Not if you perform the ancient secret technique of delayed gratification and wait for the bundle to come out. The companies who spam distributor-exclusive launch DLCs, preorder bonuses and other shit like that generally deserve not to receive full price for their games.

water1111 said:
And I love how everybody forgets GoG "closed" in 2010, and now nobody could download their games anybody, but that's okay because its DRM-FREE and shit.
Click to expand...
Steam sucked major amounts of ass back in the bad old days of the mid-noughties. People forgot about that one even faster.
 
W

water1111

Banned
GenericUserName said:
You forgot to add IndieGoGo to the list. Yes, it's not as big as KS, and it works differently, but it's worth mentioning along KS.


Not if you perform the ancient secret technique of delayed gratification and wait for the bundle to come out. The companies who spam distributor-exclusive launch DLCs, preorder bonuses and other shit like that generally deserve not to receive full price for their games.

Steam sucked major amounts of ass back in the bad old days of the mid-noughties. People forgot about that one even faster.
Click to expand...

Who the hell pays full price for PC games, I got TR for 34 bucks preorder, a steam activated game from another store, if you don't like their practice's don't buy it then.

Did Valve ever shut down? no, oh okay.
 
D

Durante

Member
Fantastic thread. Raising awareness of this issue could make the difference between the greatest games of this decade being playable 30 years from now or not. Imagine all movies made in the 70s or 80s being completely inaccessible now.

Stallion Free said:
Most people seem to value somewhat cheat protected/functional multiplayer, friends lists, leaderboards, cloud saves, etc. over being able to make infinity back up copies that can be played from thumbdrives.
Click to expand...
None of te things you mention require DRM.
 
K

Kagami

Member
water1111 said:
And I love how everybody forgets GoG "closed" in 2010, and now nobody could download their games anybody, but that's okay because its DRM-FREE and shit.
Click to expand...
The topic of this thread is the ability to back up games and continue using them, even if the store they were purchased from shuts down, or if they decide they hate you for some reason and ban your account.

You're talking about a specific feature of many download stores--the ability to redownload games--and about which stores have a better track record with that feature.
That's fine and all, but it's a separate topic. I don't personally have any interest in redownloads because I backup my games on my own.
 
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