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Automatic GPU memory paging/tiling announced for W8.1 and Xbox One.

E

ekim

Member
They showed a full scene using 3GB of texture data rendered by a GPU limited to 16MB memory at the Build keynote. This feature seems to DirectX11.1 (or 11.2) exclusive.
Watch out 8GB GDDR5! ;)

Actually I don't have a real idea how this aids performance in games but it sounds good I guess? Hopefully a dev or someone with more knowledge weighs in. :eek:

I will add the video as it becomes available.
 
S

Swifty

Member
This sounds like partially resident textures. The GCN architecture supports this so the PS4 has this as well.
 
K

KageMaru

Member
I wonder what the cost of this tiling system is. Tiling wasn't entirely trivial this gen with the 360 as it imposed some minor limitations along with an additional vertex cost to the CPU IIRC.
 
GameSeeker

GameSeeker

Member
As I pointed out in the other thread:

This is already a feature of the AMD GCN architecture used in Xbone and PS4. AMD refers to it as Partially Resident Textures (PRT) and claims texture sizes up to 32TB. OpenGL already has support for this through an AMD extension.

So both Xbone and PS4 will have this feature.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Swifty said:
This sounds like partially resident textures. The GCN architecture supports this so the PS4 has this as well.
Click to expand...

It is, just now Windows 8.1/DX11.1 fully supports it where as Windows 7-8 didn't nor did DX10 & 11. Really wouldn't matter for PS4 anyway since it's neither running on Windows nor is it using DX11. It's why Carmack despite loving AMD's PRT in GCN didn't utilize it for RAGE. He couldn't really.
 
E

ekim

Member
Swifty said:
This sounds like partially resident textures. The GCN architecture supports this so the PS4 has this as well.
Click to expand...

They didn't say it's GCN xclusive. I guess they integrated the feature for Nvidia and AMD cards directly into DirectX for easier access?
 
T

The Bookerman

Member
GameSeeker said:
As I pointed out in the other thread:

This is already a feature of the AMD GCN architecture using in Xbone and PS4. AMD refers to it as Partially Resident Textures (PRT) and claims texture sizes up to 32TB. OpenGL already has support for this through an AMD extension.

So both Xbone and PS4 will have this feature.
Click to expand...

Shit, and I expected Arthur Gies to come in and Say "SPECIAL SAUCE!". ;)
 
L

LittleJohnny

Banned
Swifty said:
This sounds like partially resident textures. The GCN architecture supports this so the PS4 has this as well.
Click to expand...


But won't it be more of a benefit to Xbone? Imagine a new breakthrough in tires for sports cars that gives you the grip of drag radials... but the PS4 already has drag radials and all the grip to sustain it's HP ;)
 
S

Swifty

Member
Angelus Errare said:
It is, just now Windows/DX fully supports it. Really wouldn't matter for PS4 anyway since it's neither running on Windows nor is it using DX11
Click to expand...
Graphics library specs aren't limited to DirectX. SCE usually implements it's own graphics libraries and specs that expose GPU features. It's not a DirectX exclusive thing.
 
E

ekim

Member
Angelus Errare said:
It is, just now Windows 8.1/DX11.1 fully supports it where as Windows 7-8 didn't nor did DX10 & 11. Really wouldn't matter for PS4 anyway since it's neither running on Windows nor is it using DX11. It's why Carmack despite loving AMD's PRT in GCN didn't utilize it for RAGE. He couldn't really.
Click to expand...

So it comes down to Sony to integrate that into their GL API?
 
S

Swifty

Member
LittleJohnny said:
But won't it be more of a benefit to Xbone? Imagine a new breakthrough in tires for sports cars that gives you the grip of drag radials... but the PS4 already has drag radials and all the grip to sustain it's HP ;)
Click to expand...

ekim said:
They didn't say it's GCN xclusive. I guess they integrated the feature for Nvidia and AMD cards directly into DirectX for easier access?
Click to expand...
No, SCE will likely have the same interfaces implemented themselves because although they don't use DirectX, they roll out their own libraries.
 
B

Bombadil

Banned
danhese007 said:
I think it has something to do with virtual memory which allows a GPU or CPU to address a large unified pool of memory regardless of its location. GPU can use system RAM and CPU can use video RAM and see both as one large unified virtual memory pool.
Click to expand...

Whoa. GPU can use system RAM?

That's pretty awesome, if true.
 
C

cchum

Member
Carmack's implementation made an OpenGL extension, which should be in PS OpenGL version (if not better, by lower level access to PRT hardware/software)

Edit: I made a huge mistake and misunderstood a poster. Forgive me GAF.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Swifty said:
Graphics library specs aren't limited to DirectX. SCE usually implements it's own graphics libraries and specs that expose GPU features. It's not a DirectX exclusive thing.
Click to expand...

The title of this thread is the software and graphics API of a hardware feature that's already out. I'm well aware that it's not limited to Direct X. The point is this news doesn't affect PS4 development because PS4 isn't utilizing Direct X graphics API nor is it using Windows. PS4 is very much capable of utilizing GCN's PRTs via graphics API.

ekim said:
So it comes down to Sony to integrate that into their GL API?
Click to expand...

OpenGL already has support for it, but since OpenGL commands like no desktop marketshare, it wasn't Carmack didn't waste time utilizing it, because really...how many people on Windows using decent GPUs were going to run the game in OpenGL.

I'd be utterly shocked if Sony didn't already improve upon the AMD provided OpenGL solution.
 
Tripolygon

Tripolygon

Banned
Bombadil said:
Whoa. GPU can use system RAM?

That's pretty awesome, if true.
Click to expand...

idk if you are being sarcastic but i was talking about UVM which i think in this case is different from what's in the OP but its safe to say PC gaming will be getting interesting once PRT and UVM roles out in PCs with next gen GPUs.

EvB said:
That's what the 360 does as does Ps4/One.

They share one chunk of ram that both CPU/GPU use as needed.
Click to expand...

I think what he is excited about it PC GPU using system RAM.
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
This was really a win for PC gaming and not even really a "win" but basically pulls them to parity. Without this native support I think as time went on and the consoles utilized it more, many mid to lower end GPUs might have struggled.

But unfortunately it's Windows 8.1 only...so yea...

EvB said:
Sony don't use OpenGL though, they use their own GL solution.
Click to expand...

Right they use LibGCM but much of it's pining AFAIA are based on OpenGL. I'd expect them to continue the tradition of taking and improving on OpenGL while rolling in their own engineering magic.
 
B

bidguy

Banned
Angelus Errare said:
This was really a win for PC gaming and not even really a "win" but basically pulls them to parity. Without this native support I think as time went on and the consoles utilized it more, many mid to lower end GPUs might have struggled.

But unfortunately it's Windows 8.1 only...so yea...



Right they use LibGCM but much of it's pining AFAIA are based on OpenGL. I'd expect them to continue the tradition of taking and improving on OpenGL while rolling in their own engineering magic.
Click to expand...

im confused, so xbox doesnt benefit from this ?
 
A

Angelus Errare

Banned
Well console games will obviously utilize it, but yea it being limited to 8.1 will prove detrimental to PC adoption. I assume ms thinks this will help move people to windows 8 when gamers start seeing "requires windows 8" on their games. But I don't see it working out that way for MS.
 
D

DieH@rd

Banned
ekim said:
They showed a full scene using 3GB of texture data rendered by a GPU limited to 16MB memory at the Build keynote. This feature seems to DirectX11.1 (or 11.2) exclusive.
Watch out 8GB GDDR5! ;)

Actually I don't have a real idea how this aids performance in games but it sounds good I guess? Hopefully a dev or someone with more knowledge weighs in. :eek:

I will add the video as it becomes available.
Click to expand...

And this is a threadworhy why? Because PC still have split memory pools? :D

Radeon cards support this for a long time now, both consoles will support it just fine. Slower ram on Xbone will not magically became better if MS starts throwing PR speek on us.
 
M

Mr. Wonderful

Member
Wait, so could my parents' motherboard, which is limited to 4GB of RAM, now use GPU VRAM as need in 8.1, if some crazy task was being performed?
 
B

Bsigg12

Member
So 8.1 is just a free update if you have 8. I know a lot of people don't want to jump to 8, but once 8.1 is officially out of its preview stage, it'll be worth it.
 
F

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Bsigg12 said:
So 8.1 is just a free update if you have 8. I know a lot of people don't want to jump to 8, but once 8.1 is officially out of its preview stage, it'll be worth it.
Click to expand...
Really really?? I remain sceptic.

Also, nice feature, gogo intergrated graphics with low memory pool.
 
S

SuperHans

Member
So from what I read here DX 11.1 has partial support in Windows 7 but DX 11.2 is Windows 8 exclusive?

Will new hardware be required to use these features or will any card that is DX 11 be okay?
 
L

LittleJohnny

Banned
Swifty said:
Graphics library specs aren't limited to DirectX. SCE usually implements it's own graphics libraries and specs that expose GPU features. It's not a DirectX exclusive thing.
Click to expand...

The key word here is "Automatic", that's what makes this special and news worthy.
 
S

scently

Member
This is mentioned in the Feb 2012 Durango meeting pdf. From what is written, while the X1 is limited to 8gb of physical RAM, its paging/virtual memory is up 1tb. That is, it can handle a virtual memory resource of 1tb. The difference from Carmack megatexture is that it is not limited to textures but anything that can be mapped to memory; textures, geometry etc. The paging system is extended to include the eSRAM too.
 
T

Tenacious-V

Thinks his PR is better than yours.
Thank you AMD for always pushing the tech envelope and trying to make your standards as open and available as possible! I'm sure having your tech in all consoles helped with getting it implemented as a standard of course. Yeah it's been in the Radeon cards for a while, but having it officially part of DX is awesome! Way to help the industry forward!

Unlike your rivals in the green who always have to try and make everything as proprietary bullshit.
 
S

SSM25

Member
Tenacious-V said:
Thank you AMD for always pushing the tech envelope and trying to make your standards as open and available as possible! I'm sure having your tech in all consoles helped with getting it implemented as a standard of course. Yeah it's been in the Radeon cards for a while, but having it officially part of DX is awesome! Way to help the industry forward!

Unlike your rivals in the green who always have to try and make everything as proprietary bullshit.
Click to expand...

Edit: Oh no wait you are right..
 
L

LukasTaves

Member
scently said:
This is mentioned in the Feb 2012 Durango meeting pdf. From what is written, while the X1 is limited to 8gb of physical RAM, its paging/virtual memory is up 1tb. That is, it can handle a virtual memory resource of 1tb. The difference from Carmack megatexture is that it is not limited to textures but anything that can be mapped to memory; textures, geometry etc. The paging system is extended to include the eSRAM too.
Click to expand...

Oh, it extends for everything in memory too? Awesome.

I can imagine the dme's also come in to play with this...
 
O

OryoN

Member
This sounds like something that would be perfect for that 32MB eSRAM.

In fact, method aside, isn't that the whole principal behind embedded memory to begin with? Allowing massive amount of data to be handled via a small(though "large" as far as on-chip memory goes) capacity memory? IF they are doing this without the benefits of the eSRAM, then the method can only improve when designed around it.

Also, what are the drawbacks? I'm sure they must be some.
 
M

M3d10n

Member
Isn't the tiling support actually aimed at tile-based mobile GPUs like PowerVR, to make DirectX more tablet-friendly?

It's a shame the virtual texturing is 8.1 only, but it does sound like something that required changes in the driver stack.
 
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