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Jason Richwine: "Why can’t we talk about IQ?"

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TCRS

Banned
Jason Richwine talking about his dissertation and racial differences in intelligence and the controversy surrounding his dissertation:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/opinion-jason-richwine-95353.html

An excerpt:

The American Psychological Association (APA) tried to set the record straight in 1996 with a report written by a committee of experts. Among the specific conclusions drawn by the APA were that IQ tests reliably measure a real human trait, that ethnic differences in average IQ exist, that good tests of IQ are not culturally biased against minority groups, and that IQ is a product of both genetic inheritance and early childhood environment. Another report signed by 52 experts, entitled “Mainstream Science on Intelligence,” stated similar facts and was printed in the Wall Street Journal.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/opinion-jason-richwine-95353_Page2.html#ixzz2bV7U5DAT



What do you guys think? Is rejecting and condemning a certain field of science justified because it might be racist?
 
What do you guys think? Is rejecting and condemning a certain field of science justified because it might be racist?

If it us actual science with evidence to back it up its not racist. I don't think we should ever dismiss studies because the results may be perceived to be racist or that the results of a study may conclude that one race is superior or inferior to another. Difference is a part of life.

If the study is flawed then yes, criticize it. I just don't think we should back away from issues in which differences may arise.

E.g if there is a study that isn't flawed and it concludes that there may be differences in intelligence between races, then why shy away from that? Its up to other studies to back it up or disprove it. Same goes for athletic prowess etc. If a study has peer reviewed and accepted evidence then its worth a look.
 

Jado

Banned
Because there is no such thing? Morgan Spurlock visited this all-black/Latino charter school on his CNN show, mentioning that the kids even outperform some of NY's private schools. It's not the only one of its kind with similar results.

http://williamsburgcollegiate.uncommonschools.org/wccs/results
On the 2012 New York State Assessments, Williamsburg Collegiate reversed the racial achievement gap in Math in all grades, outperforming New York City, New York State, and New York State white students and with 100% of students scoring advanced or proficient in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. In ELA, Williamsburg Collegiate outperformed New York City and New York State in 6th, 7th, and 8th grade, and saw its lead 8th grade cohort reversed the racial achievement gap, also outperforming New York State white students.
 
And you are basing that opinion on what? Because the APA disagrees with you.

It seems to me it's mostly based on logic. It doesn't take into account creativity or emotional intelligence. Ends up making an exclusive association between intelligence and logic, failing to take into account two of the things that have been of the utmost importance in human evolution.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Because there is no such thing? Morgan Spurlock visited this all-black/Latino charter school on his CNN show, mentioning that the kids even outperform some of NY's private schools. It's not the only one of its kind with similar results.

http://williamsburgcollegiate.uncommonschools.org/wccs/results

You just quoted a source that mentions nothing about singling out private schools in comparison to Williamsburg. You are taking one school that is probably heavily focused like some NY private schools at academics, but then giving graphics that take averages of the whole state.
 
It seems to me it's mostly based on logic. It doesn't take into account creativity or emotional intelligence. Ends up making an exclusive association between intelligence and logic, failing to take into account two of the things that have been of the utmost importance in human evolution.
Well said. Reminds me of the Einstein quote.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.
 

ronito

Member
I was once a musician. And as such totally believed in a "musical IQ" or what many would call "raw talent" and this is why you can't go by IQ:

It didn't matter then if someone was immensely talented if they didn't have discipline or creativity. And there were plenty of less "talented" people that had immense "musical IQ" that were matched by people (like myself) that had far lower musical IQ but knew how to work hard. IQ is just an indicator. Aptitude is more important when it comes to doing work.
 

Lucario

Member
There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest racial differences in IQs are due to race itself. In fact, all reputable researchers attribute it to economic background, as the data is nearly a perfect match.

This should be incredibly obvious.

Richwine's bizarre focus on IQ differences between race does make him a racist, regardless of how much he tries to hide behind the "but it's for science" argument.

He's pushing his bullshit pseudoscience -- not IQ tests, but the idea that correlation implies causation -- to further his racist reasoning, then getting all offended when people discard him as the bigoted piece of shit he is. Thanks, politico, for this specious mess of an article. I hope the clicks were worth it.
 

Guevara

Member
Also all you need to know about Jason Richwine is that he opposes immigration for hispanics because they test lower on IQ tests and would "damage" the country or something with their idiocy.

It's almost classical racism. Usually you don't see it in such a pure form.
 

TCRS

Banned
It seems to me it's mostly based on logic. It doesn't take into account creativity or emotional intelligence. Ends up making an exclusive association between intelligence and logic, failing to take into account two of the things that have been of the utmost importance in human evolution.

Guys, as much as I respect your personal opinions, are there any scientific sources to back up your opinions?

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest racial differences in IQs are due to race itself. In fact, all reputable researchers attribute it to economic background, as the data is nearly a perfect match.

This should be incredibly obvious.

Richwine's bizarre focus on IQ differences between race does make him a racist, regardless of how much he tries to hide behind the "but it's for science" argument.

Um, yeah that's also what the APA says, something that Richwine quotes himself.
 

kirblar

Member
There is no evidence whatsoever to determine if racial divides in IQs are due to race itself. In fact, all reputable researchers attribute it to economic background, as the data is nearly a perfect match.

This should be incredibly obvious.

Richwine's bizarre focus on IQ differences between race does make him a racist, regardless of how much he tries to hide behind the "but it's for science" argument.

He's pushing his bullshit pseudoscience -- not IQ tests, but the idea that correlation implies causation -- to further his racist reasoning, then getting all offended when people discard him as the bigoted piece of shit he is. Thanks, politico, for this specious mess of an article. I hope the clicks were worth it.
It's like with Sickle Cell Anemia- yes, the people with it are all black. But it has nothing to do with them being black and everything to do with it being an evolutionary defense against Malaria that developed in a region where the people happened to have black skin.
 

Lucario

Member
Um, yeah that's also what the APA says, something that Richwine quotes himself.

If by quotes, you mean "glosses over, then goes on to imply IQ has a racial component independent of socioeconomic background", then yes.

If that were his actual belief, this article would not exist.
 
It's like with Sickle Cell Anemia- yes, the people with it are all black. But it has nothing to do with them being black and everything to do with it being an evolutionary defense against Malaria that developed in a region where the people happened to have black skin.
Not at all similar. Intelligence has to do with socioeconomics more than biology.
 
What do they ask on an IQ test? How can it possibly not be affected by factors other than race/genetics (like education, socio-economic status, etc.)?
 

huxley00

Member
There are more minorities in poverty than non-minorities. Odds are that they will have tougher early childhoods (and lives)...since the test is an indicator of general intellect and that based off of early childhood development, isn't that exactly why the test is biased?
 

capslock

Is jealous of Matlock's emoticon
Hi I made up this test for you to take.

You didn't do well on my made up test? You must be stupid.
 

Cartman86

Banned
At this point in our history and understanding of the differences in intelligence based on race (in that it's purely social) Richwine's research is racist. He should know better if he's actually a good scientist.
 

Cyan

Banned
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-doesnt-understand-why-people-are-mad-at-him/

Let’s leave aside the question of whether Richwine’s thesis actually establishes what he claims it establishes, or whether the claims here are actually supported by the totality of research. What’s troublesome here is that Richwine appears to not understand what it was about his dissertation that disturbed people. He argued for a clear and persistent genetic basis to IQ, used that to argue for an immigration system based on IQ tests, and then provided political advice on how to hide the intent of that system.

Here are a few things Richwine claimed in his dissertation but leaves out of this summary:

...
• Richwine, to be fair, does not rest his argument on his belief in genetic determination of differences between the races. But his argument depends entirely on his belief that the differences are “persistent,” a point that he leaves out of this summary. He writes, in perhaps the most quoted section of the dissertation, “No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against.” He leaves this striking prediction out of his summary.

...
• Richwine argues in the dissertation for using language of “skill-based” immigration as a Trojan Horse for adopting IQ-based immigration policy. “One way to at least blunt the negative reaction is to drop the use of the word IQ and to replace it with skill,” he writes. “A new immigration policy could use ‘skill tests’ to find disadvantaged people with ‘raw skill.’ The tests would still be ordinary intelligence tests, but the emotional baggage that the term IQ sometimes carries with it would be much reduced.”

This has obvious political relevance, as much of the debate over the immigration bill surrounds how much immigration should be allowed of “low-skilled” versus “high-skilled” laborers. Richwine and others at the Heritage Foundation have argued for the latter at the expense of the former. Indeed, the report of Richwine’s and Robert Rector’s estimating the cost of the Senate immigration bill relied heavily on the so-called “cost” of low-skilled immigrants to reach its conclusions. Richwine’s dissertation puts these views in context, and suggests his views on IQ, and on the IQ differentials between the races, may motivate his beliefs on actual immigration bills before Congress.

Richwine is obviously welcome to believe what he wants about the permanent intellectual inferiority of Hispanic immigrants to the United States, and about the relevance of that belief to practical immigration policymaking. But he should not sugar-coat his views.
 

Lucario

Member
Out of curiosity, I googled "Jason Richwine Eugenics" after getting a sense of deja vu from the "but it's for science" argument.

YEP

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...-foundation-jason-richwine-immigration-policy

"No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach I.Q. parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-I.Q. children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against," Richwine wrote. "From the perspective of Americans alive today, the low average I.Q. of Hispanics is effectively permanent."

One of his learned opinions is that Hispanics are genetically inferior intellectually and will never fully assimilate into U.S. society.

In his dissertation, Richwine dredged up the old pseudo-science of eugenics. That's the same baseless theories about racial and ethnic superiority that have caused nations to embrace selective sterilization, slavery, apartheid and worse.

It's dangerous stuff, and Richwine knows it.

He counseled using euphemisms like "skill-based" when proposing which immigrants should be welcomed via IQ tests, to "blunt the negative reaction."


edit: goddamnit cyan, I wanted to quote the racist first
 

Mondriaan

Member
It's still a mix, but trying to separate the two is extraordinarily difficult.
The Flynn effect suggests that it's not biological and could be strongly associated with early childhood nutrition/more familiarization with standardized tests, though.
 

kirblar

Member
The Flynn effect suggests that it's not biological and could be strongly associated with early childhood nutrition, though.
Sure, and things will get better overall as kids are brought up in better environments. You're still going to still have a range of variation, though, from genius level to the polar opposite. Where you fall on that range having absolutely no genetic component seems utterly unbelievable.

That having been said, this is a huge reason why early childhood intervention is so important. Kids learn fastest at an early age, and the socioeconomic differences in things like exposure to variance in language will handicap them if they're not given a helping hand.
Yeah, Politico have never not been a piece of shit.
Truth.
 

Jado

Banned
You just quoted a source that mentions nothing about singling out private schools in comparison to Williamsburg. You are taking one school that is probably heavily focused like some NY private schools at academics, but then giving graphics that take averages of the whole state.

The outperforming area private schools came up during the segment. Many of these kids come from economically troubled backgrounds and some had the reading level of first graders before attending the school. Without the school's intervention, the likes of Richwine would point to these kids in their adult years as proof of his race/IQ hypothesis. Point being that outside of anomalies (geniuses, mentally challenged), everyone is kinda in this middle ground and fully capable of being as intelligent as the next person.

edit: yup, I knew I remembered this idiot from somewhere. Old-fashioned eugenics racist confirmed.
 
IQ test are bullshit anyway. Once you know how to take the test you can score higher than you might have initially. When I last took one, I got an IQ of ~104 despite essentially doing half of the test.
 

TCRS

Banned
You guys are missing the point. The conclusions he draws can be criticised, but the question is why shouldn't we study the differences in IQ in the first place when there is a clear scientific case for it? Are we just going to ignore scientific findings whenever it suits us and goes against our world view?

His other point was the lack of understanding that journalists have in this regard and that their reactions are emotional than based on scientific facts, which makes quoting them rather moot to the discussion here.
 
IQ test are bullshit anyway. Once you know how to take the test you can score higher than you might have initially. When I last took one, I got an IQ of ~104 despite essentially doing half of the test.

I've scored 122 , 140 and 103 on 3 different ones lol... might as well throw a dart at a chart.
 

Fou-Lu

Member
I've taken several IQ tests through out school that always placed me in the genius range (150+) this is how I know they are bullshit.
 

kswiston

Member
Sure, and things will get better overall as kids are brought up in better environments. You're still going to still have a range of variation, though, from genius level to the polar opposite. Where you fall on that range having absolutely no genetic component seems utterly unbelievable.

It's not. Several major studies have shown that identical twins have more strongly correlated IQ scores than fraternal twins or biological siblings. In fact, identical twins raised apart still have a stronger correlation in IQ than other siblings (including fraternal twins) raised together. You can't argue that there is no biological basis for intelligence. Environment plays a big role, but there is evidence that IQ correlation is stronger between biological parents and children living apart (ie. kids who were given up for adoption at birth), than adoptive parents and children living together. However, I don't think there is much evidence for significant differences between ethnic groups when you control for socioeconomic factors. Intelligence is influenced by many different genes so variation within ethnic groups is going to be as large as the variation between groups.
 

Lucario

Member
Except that there is according to the APA and other scientists. Have you even read the article?

Yes. Have you done research on this subject aside from the claims of a man who believes Mexicans shouldn't be allowed into the US due to their "genetic inferiority"?

To repeat myself:

The racial differences in IQ cannot be attributed to race itself. When you control for socioeconomic factors, the differences are eliminated.
 

mavs

Member
Oh, it's the guy who Will Wilkinson took apart and left in pieces (nicely, he is Canadian), thanks for putting that link in your own article mister.
 

Cyan

Banned
You guys are missing the point. The conclusions he draws can be criticised, but the question is why shouldn't we study the differences in IQ in the first place when there is a clear scientific case for it?

The question is motivated by the guy's racism. Science shouldn't be suppressed because of fear of what it might tell us, but this isn't a scientific issue, and that Richwine is trying to paint himself as a defender of truth and science doesn't mean we should let that framing stand.
 

Mondriaan

Member
It's not. Several major studies have shown that identical twins have more strongly correlated IQ scores than fraternal twins or biological siblings. In fact, identical twins raised apart still have a stronger correlation in IQ than other siblings (including fraternal twins) raised together. You can't argue that there is no biological basis for intelligence. Environment plays a big role, but there is evidence that IQ correlation is stronger between biological parents and children living apart (ie. kids who were given up for adoption at birth), than adoptive parents and children living together. However, I don't think there is much evidence for significant differences between ethnic groups when you control for socioeconomic factors. Intelligence is influenced by many different genes so variation within ethnic groups is going to be as large as the variation between groups.
The studies I've glanced at seem to say that whatever correlation there is goes down with age, which would be consistent with the hypothesis that environment is far more important than genetics.
 
You guys are missing the point. The conclusions he draws can be criticised, but the question is why shouldn't we study the differences in IQ in the first place when there is a clear scientific case for it? Are we just going to ignore scientific findings whenever it suits us and goes against our world view?

His other point was the lack of understanding that journalists have in this regard and that their reactions are emotional than based on scientific facts, which makes quoting them rather moot to the discussion here.

Here's my answer. Get 50 new born kids from all over the world whose parents are on similar footing when it comes to education and wealth, then pick another 50 whose parents are all poor. Raise them in the same environment with the same education, everything being the same, and then when they are 21/25 years old, share the results and set them in the wild.

Otherwise what are we actually comparing?
 
You guys are missing the point. The conclusions he draws can be criticised, but the question is why shouldn't we study the differences in IQ in the first place when there is a clear scientific case for it? Are we just going to ignore scientific findings whenever it suits us and goes against our world view?

His other point was the lack of understanding that journalists have in this regard and that their reactions are emotional than based on scientific facts, which makes quoting them rather moot to the discussion here.
Will people go further to explore the various factors in what makes the IQ difference or will they just stop there and say, "[x] people's IQ are lower than [y] people's IQ, therefore we should treat [x]'s better than [y]'s"?
 

TCRS

Banned
Yes. Have you done research on this subject aside from the claims of a man who believes Mexicans shouldn't be allowed into the US due to their "genetic inferiority"?

To repeat myself:

The racial differences in IQ cannot be attributed to race itself. When you control for socioeconomic factors, the differences are eliminated.

I'm sorry, I still don't see where he actually says that. If you mean the quote with the mexican grand child still having similar IQ I interpret that as a slow changing IQ compared to the dramatic change of the environment rather than a non-changing IQ. Because he clearly says it's from the pov of americans alive today.
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
lets say that IQ was even a good representation of anything and consistently, you'd still have to run a study where socio economics don't influence the subjects. We can talk intelligence, the guy just has an agenda.
 
Is there where I point out a few generations ago that the Jews were the supposed underclass that would never be equal among the white. On a racial basis, IQ is totally bullshit. You want to help those poor Mexican's become smarter? Fund education.
 
Exactly lol.

I believe they do have some merit though, you can see if someone can recognise patterns (meta patterns that others can't see or weren't trained to recognise) but putting an exact number on it seems horseshit considering how varied the results can be.

and education has a huge impact on it too..

Hell total bisquit claims to have an iq of 140, and he's a well spoken but kind of slow witted man who can't be reasoned with. (and is terrible at videogames!)
 
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