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Scenario: We discover link between Race and Intelligence, what happens?

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JordanN

Banned
I'm not an expert on DNA, but isn't there like a 99% DNA similarity between humans and chimpanzees? So clearly small DNA differences can lead to big differences in observable reality.

I just feel like race is one of those things about life in which you'll have to rely on your own judgement for an answer, like say the existence of the soul or even extraterrestrial life, if there really was concrete evidence for those things it would be suppressed because it would just have too radical an effect on society.
Science is only about espousing truth. It may hurt/confuse people at first, but if people only kept clinging onto the past and plugging our ears, humans would literally be back to the stone age instead of where we progressed today.

I mention in my first post in this thread why this research is validated even without genetics. History has already demonstrated the biggest achievements made by civilization has a huge European/Asian slant.
Looking at this data shouldn't make anyone racist. But it's safe to say that if Europeans/Asians didn't make all those contributions, where would the world be today?

Look at the Americas before European contact, and the most advance civilization was at best Bronze Age technology. In Africa too, much of the continent still hadn't surpassed Iron Age technology on their own.
It's too big of a coincidence, that if it wasn't genetics that lead to the modern world, what was it? Aliens? Magic? Pixie dust? Something had to affect our bodies that got one group of people to settle down, start farming, and start building a civilization with hopes of expanding and literally out competing all other humans that were in the area (and eventually the world).

Once again, this data shouldn't make anyone out to be inferior, but better understand how increased intelligence has allowed humans to cultivate this world.
 
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Dunki

Member
Science is only about espousing truth. It may hurt/confuse people at first, but if people only kept clinging onto the past and plugging our ears, humans would literally be back to the stone age instead of where we progressed today.

I mention in my first post in this thread why this research is validated even without genetics. History has already demonstrated the biggest achievements made by civilization has a huge European/Asian slant.
Looking at this data shouldn't make anyone racist. But it's safe to say that if Europeans/Asians didn't make all those contributions, where would the world be today?

Look at the Americas before European contact, and the most advance civilization was at best Bronze Age technology. In Africa too, much of the continent was still hadn't surpassed Iron Age technology on their own.
It's too big of a coincidence, that if it wasn't genetics that lead to the modern world, what was it? Aliens? Magic? Pixie dust? Something had to affect our bodies that got one group of people to settle down, start farming, and start building a civilization with hopes of expanding and literally out competing all other humans that were in the area (and eventually the world).
Cultural and geographical differences. The climate was much different it made it way more difficult to do it. In Europe it was a mild climate no real dangers etc. It was much easier to settle down use your time for science etc. I doubt it has ANYTHING to do with race to be honest.
 

Greedings

Member

This is not a correct interpretation. The article says 97.5% similar CODING DNA. Also only on one chromosome.
Coding DNA is what forms the message to make proteins. There’s more to it than that, the message is also changed drastically. It is cut up and pasted in different ways that make one gene make more than one protein. This isn’t accounted for.
It also ignores so called “junk” DNA which we are learning isn’t junk at all. It forms the parts of DNA that does not code for proteins but decides which prtoteins are made, it forms links between other areas of DNA to allow control of active and silent areas of DNA.
Let’s not forget that the timing of genes being switched on, or the activity of the gene - how much of the protein it makes also plays a HUGE role in determining phenotype.

IT ignores DNA that forms the message but not a protein. These also regulate gene activity. The whole process is extremely complex, and saying we have x% similarity to a mouse or a chimp or another person hides so much information.

My explanation is too simplistic but I’m on my phone
 

JordanN

Banned
Cultural and geographical differences.
Where do you think culture came from?
Several Native Indian tribes existed before the USA, yet it was only the USA that drafted up a constitution at its inception. Same geographic location, yet very different culture that can be separated by race.

Or look at Africa. The Dutch had settled in South Africa in the 1600s and by the end of the the 20th century, it was still one of the most advance countries in the whole continent.
Same geography, yet different rates of development.

I'm also not quite sure that there was no place to settle down. Literally, all of Africa can fit the United States, China and Europe inside.
YBzDxiY.png
 
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Dunki

Member
Where do you think culture came from?
Several Native Indian tribes existed before the USA, yet it was only the USA that drafted up a constitution at its inception. Same geographic location, yet very different culture that can be separated by race.

Or look at Africa. The Dutch had settled in South Africa in the 1600s and by the end of the the 20th century, it was still one of the most advance countries in the whole continent.
Same geography, yet different rates of development.
Because they already had a huge advantage in terms of science and technology. If Dutch people would have started at the same place at the same time they would also not have evolved much differently. And cultural is being founded on the need of a society and their importance. When you are barely survive you have different priorities which then is being established in your own culture. for example pray for a good harvest etc.
 
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DKehoe

Member
Where do you think culture came from?
Several Native Indian tribes existed before the USA, yet it was only the USA that drafted up a constitution at its inception. Same geographic location, yet very different culture that can be separated by race.

Or look at Africa. The Dutch had settled in South Africa in the 1600s and by the end of the the 20th century, it was still one of the most advance countries in the whole continent.
Same geography, yet different rates of development.

Or Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North Africa being connected and able to trade and interact with each other helped with the development of those regions. Whereas sub-saharan Africa was disconnected from that by the Sahara desert and the Americas were disconnected by being on a different land mass and were only sparsely populated by comparison. That makes way more sense than just deciding race must be the deciding factor.
 

JordanN

Banned
Because they already had a huge advantage in terms of science and technology. If Dutch people would have started at the same place at the same time they would also not have evolved much differently. And cultural is being founded on the need of a society and their importance. When you are barely survive you have different priorities which then is being established in your own culture. for example pray for a good harvest etc.
But they wouldn't be Dutch anymore now would they?
If you want to counter my example, you would need to post the inverse situation. I.e, Africans settling in Europe and creating a far more advanced country next to its neighbors.

Dunki said:
When you are barely survive you have different priorities which then is being established in your own culture. for example pray for a good harvest etc.
You need to be specific how this only affected the non-Europeans. I'm pretty sure farming and animal husbandry wasn't actually considered widespread in Africa before contact.

Or Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North Africa being connected and able to trade and interact with each other helped with the development of those regions. Whereas sub-saharan Africa was disconnected from that by the Sahara desert and the Americas were disconnected by being on a different land mass and were only sparsely populated by comparison. That makes way more sense than just deciding race must be the deciding factor.
Japan was located farther away from Europe than Africa was, yet they were still relatively advanced on their own.
Or, consider the fact that when Japan did open its ports and do trade with the outside world, they manage to quickly industrialize and literally rival European countries in less than a century.

China and South Korea also went from being backwater countries to global challengers in the same very fast time frame.
 
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llien

Member
Or look at Africa. The Dutch had settled in South Africa in the 1600s and by the end of the the 20th century, it was still one of the most advance countries in the whole continent.
Same geography, yet different rates of development.
But they brought all the achievements that were known in Europe with them.

And Europe itself was in "dark ages" for how long, a thousand years?
Greeks considered Germans barbarians. yet Germany is one of the most advanced nations now.
During "dark ages" it was Arabs, who had conserved the ancient knowledge, not Europeans, who is where now?
Japanese tech revolution in XX century.
 

HarryKS

Member
The implication of genetics not having a significant impact on iq scores would actually be far more frightening.
A big IQ is no achievement in and of its own unless you do something with it and I feel that's there's far more underachievers out there than people who've pulled through.
 
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JordanN

Banned
But they brought all the achievements that were known in Europe with them.
Yes, the Europeans had advanced more quickly which lines up exactly with IQ.

llien said:
And Europe itself was in "dark ages" for how long, a thousand years?
Greeks considered Germans barbarians. yet Germany is one of the most advanced nations now.
Both Greeks & Germans are still genetically closer to each other. I also don't think Celts were too far backwards since I'm aware they minted their own coins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_coinage

llien said:
During "dark ages" it was Arabs, who had conserved the ancient knowledge, not Europeans, who is where now?
I'm reading theories on why Arabs and Europeans switched places, and one of them is too much inbreeding & foreign admixture lead to a lowering of IQ.
 

DKehoe

Member
Japan was located farther away from Europe than Africa was, yet they were still relatively advanced on their own.
Or, consider the fact that when Japan did open its ports and do trade with the outside world, they manage to quickly industrialize and literally rival European countries in less than a century.

Japan is just across the sea from one of history's traditional super powers. How close you are to Europe isn't what determines how developed you are. That's not the point I was trying to make. Again, historically speaking Europe hasn't tended to be the most powerful region in the world. That's a relatively recent thing. If you look at the Roman Empire, the rich and important part that individual Roman rulers preferred to have control over was the Eastern half, not the West. That's because it had the Silk Road trade route coming through it with the connection to China and the Middle East.
 
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llien

Member
Yes, the Europeans had advanced more quickly which lines up exactly with IQ.
Why did Japan need to see foreigners to switch into "advance faster" mode?

How come Germans were barbarians when Greeks were creating monumental works of art and science? How come Europeans were asleep for about a thousand years?

It is way to complicated to draw far reaching conclusions off it.
 

JordanN

Banned
Why did Japan need to see foreigners to switch into "advance faster" mode?
Japan itself kept relative pace as the Europeans, since you can see they built castles and had writing which is impressive for being an isolationist island nation.
But when they did open their ports, and invited the Europeans to share with them the secrets of gunpowder, ship building and industrialization, they mastered all that technology and even began challenging Europe directly between the two world wars. Even after the country was destroyed by WW2, in only a span of 40 years Japan had surpassed the Soviet Union and today remains the 3rd most economically powerful nation on earth (behind that of China & the USA).

llien said:
How come Germans were barbarians when Greeks were creating monumental works of art and science? How come Europeans were asleep for about a thousand years?

It is way to complicated to draw far reaching conclusions off it.
Well again, I don't think they were "sleeping". The celts were certainly progressing on their own, and if you look further north, the Vikings had even begun sailing all the way to North America and establishing a colony.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland

In sub-sahara Africa, none of the tribes got as far as seafaring or building a civilization that could even challenge the Romans/Greeks. And that's exactly where the IQ cutoff takes hold.
 
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I’ve already done the study. I’ve seen all races, genders, and ages driving and in traffic. The results are...

1. Most people can’t drive and race, gender, and age doesn’t have any impact.

2. Most act like dumbasses in traffic and race, gender, and age have no impact.

People seem to lack intelligence and decency when behind the wheel.
 

DKehoe

Member
Japan itself kept relative pace as the Europeans, since you can see they built castles and had writing which is impressive for being an isolationist island nation.
But when they did open their ports, and invited the Europeans to share with them the secrets of gunpowder, ship building and industrialization, they mastered all that technology and even began challenging Europe directly between the two world wars. Even after the country was destroyed by WW2, in only a span of 40 years Japan had surpassed the Soviet Union and today remains the 3rd most economically powerful nation on earth (behind that of China & the USA).

Japan was isolated from the 1630s to the 1850s. So of course they had writing and castles. That's also a really short span of time and took place after a long period where they were trading and interacting with other places. Defining Japan as an isolationist country is just wrong.

Well again, I don't think they were "sleeping". The celts were certainly progressing on their own, and if you look further north, the Vikings had even begun sailing all the way to North America and establishing a colony.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland

The vikings weren't on their own though. They were travelling out to and trading with places like Baghdad.

In sub-sahara Africa, none of the tribes got as far as seafaring or building a civilization that could even challenge the Romans/Greeks. And that's exactly where the IQ cutoff takes hold.

Or it's exactly where the argument comes in that being able to interact with as large a group as possible is what helps an area develop.
 

llien

Member
Japan itself kept relative pace as the Europeans, since you can see they built castles and had writing which is impressive for being an isolationist island nation.

Japanese can understand Chinese texts and vice versa. Guess why... ;)

But when they did open their ports, and invited the Europeans to share with them the secrets of gunpowder, ship building and industrialization, they mastered all that technology and even began challenging Europe directly between the two world wars. Even after the country was destroyed by WW2, in only a span of 40 years Japan had surpassed the Soviet Union and today remains the 3rd most economically powerful nation on earth (behind that of China & the USA).
I'm pretty sure you know, which country gunpowder originates from, don't you? (a side note)

And not sure how quoted text strengthens your point. :) There is no consistence in how nations developed, most of what happened in Asia was done in China and India, Japan is just a recent "fluke".

Well again, I don't think they were "sleeping". The celts were certainly progressing on their own, and if you look further north, the Vikings had even begun sailing all the way to North America and establishing a colony.
It took human race more than a thousand of years, to get back to what Greeks were doing. Vikings sailing to NA... good for them. :)

Look, there haven't been a steady non-stop, over centuries development ANYWHERE ON THIS PLANET. We had a fluke in one place (includes Africa, by the way) then fluke in another, and then in another. The latest fluke was so powerful, we gave it a name.


In sub-sahara Africa, none of the tribes got as far as seafaring or building a civilization that could even challenge the Romans/Greeks.
Neither did Asians, whom Harvard doesn't know how to deal with, they are that far ahead of all races!!!
 
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We already discovered an indisputable biological link. It doesn't matter because we're all forced to share this rock until some enterprising individual figures out an economical way to colonize other planets and moons.

What should be focused on is providing the best possible living standard for as many as possible while simultaneously

a) not over-subjugating minorities so as to minimize conflict

b) not allowing the majority to be compromised by a difficult minority so as to minimize instability and polarization

c) recognizing that every group is allowed to have their own country or homeland. Peaceful balkanization

This has led me to believe that multiculturalism is a pipe dream. All states who promote open borders and mixing will eventually see lowered living standards and eventual conflict / collapse. Multiculturalism itself is a symptom of Imperialism and it is something Imperialists promote. Only those Empires which enforced assimilation or eliminated their minorities still exist today (aka two, China & Russia). The US Empire is on a collapse trajectory, it will fracture into a number of competing coalitions or states. The establishment is too polarized to function beyond a handful more general elections and this time there will be no clear civil war winner as there will be impetus and opportunity for outside powers to intervene directly.

Therefore;

d) Segregation tending toward dominating majority states. I.e different ethnic, pan-ethnic and racial groups should have their own countries or regions. While it should be possible to move from one country to another and become an assimilated minority, there should be zero support or welfare in that respect. It should be possible but actively discouraged, meaning minimal cultural clashes and problems. Latent empires will establish spheres of influence over the balkanized western Europe and North America, but outside of Russia, China is not interested in direct control, merely economic tributaries. And by then we may indeed have opportunity to balkanize into space and set up homogeneous space colonies. Given the vast distances involved, space warfare would be pointless in the near future.

Whoever colonizes Mercury will have serious advantages however. It is the most metal rich body in the solar system, has massive solar potential and has great advantages in terms of accelerating payloads thanks to its proximity to the suns gravity well. While at a disadvantage for computational capacity (temporary and cyclic hot temperatures mean difficult to cool planetary or orbital supercomputing components) it has colossal industrial potential beyond computation. The Mercurian nation won't be cutting edge but it will have many times the industrial/manufacturing capacity of Earth and the reach to send huge payloads to every body in the solar system on the cheap. It may become the manufacturing hub of the system. This will mean it becoming the primary shipyard too. And he who controls the biggest navy controls the trade in the system.
 
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BANGS

Banned
I personally wouldn't care. Some races are more prone to some diseases etc etc so this wouldn't be something crazy and/or mindblowing. But I'd assume a bunch of idiots would cry about it...
 

TheMikado

Banned
Well here we go again.

1) First we have to have a discussion on Genotype vs Phenotype.

2) Then based on this discussion we can then have a dicussion on what constitutes race and racial similarity.

3) Then based on that we can discuss what constitutes intelligence, how its measured, applied, and the importance it plays in society and culturally.

4)After we have intelligently and properly discussed this topics than we can finally have the conversation on how "race" correlates to "intelligence".
 

Dunki

Member
But they wouldn't be Dutch anymore now would they?
If you want to counter my example, you would need to post the inverse situation. I.e, Africans settling in Europe and creating a far more advanced country next to its neighbors.


You need to be specific how this only affected the non-Europeans. I'm pretty sure farming and animal husbandry wasn't actually considered widespread in Africa before contact.


Japan was located farther away from Europe than Africa was, yet they were still relatively advanced on their own.
Or, consider the fact that when Japan did open its ports and do trade with the outside world, they manage to quickly industrialize and literally rival European countries in less than a century.

China and South Korea also went from being backwater countries to global challengers in the same very fast time frame.
Dutch is just a name they stll could be Dutch but their origin is in Africa. Just like the name Africa itself ist just a made up word.

And farming was widespread in Africa just take Egypt as an Example but it was also much more difficult to do. You had to work with the nature you have to invent things based on the geographical differences etc. I realy doubt that if Germans were established in Africa they had a much more different outcome than we have now.
 

Gun Animal

Member
Dutch is just a name they stll could be Dutch but their origin is in Africa. Just like the name Africa itself ist just a made up word.

And farming was widespread in Africa just take Egypt as an Example but it was also much more difficult to do. You had to work with the nature you have to invent things based on the geographical differences etc. I realy doubt that if Germans were established in Africa they had a much more different outcome than we have now.

Egyptians were (and still mostly are) caucasian, as with everyone above the Sahara. For clarification, when semi-literates (no offense JordanN) say "Africans" they almost always mean "Sub-Saharan Africans". There's a reason that DNA sites like 23&Me group North Africa and the Middle East together.

And indeed, sub-saharan africans are one of only a few groups that never experienced an Agricultural revolution, most certainly the largest.

Further, 'words are made up and nothing means anything' is a bad argument. If you are over the age of six and not suffering from any developmental impairments you surely know what he means when he says 'Dutch', The same way you know that a German Shepard does not refer to any dog that happens to live in Germany.
 
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llien

Member
OK, found the guy:

Bruce Lahn.
The 37-year-old Dr. Lahn says his research papers, published in Science last September, offered no view on race and intelligence. He personally believes it is possible that some populations will have more advantageous intelligence genes than others. And he thinks that "society will have to grapple with some very difficult facts" as scientific data accumulate. Yet Dr. Lahn, who left China after participating in prodemocracy protests, says intellectual "police" in the U.S. make such questions difficult to pursue.
Henry Harpending, a University of Utah anthropology professor who recently published a theory for why Ashkenazi Jews tend to have high IQ's, says Dr. Lahn once suggested they co-author an article for Scientific American about the genetics of behavior, in which they could explain why "Chinese are boring."

"I think that Bruce doesn't understand political correctness," Dr. Harpending says. Dr. Lahn says he only vaguely recalls the conversation but confirms that he wonders whether during China's imperial times there was "some selection" against rebellious individuals.
WSJ
 
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Super Mario

Banned
Well here we go again.

1) First we have to have a discussion on Genotype vs Phenotype.

2) Then based on this discussion we can then have a dicussion on what constitutes race and racial similarity.

3) Then based on that we can discuss what constitutes intelligence, how its measured, applied, and the importance it plays in society and culturally.

4)After we have intelligently and properly discussed this topics than we can finally have the conversation on how "race" correlates to "intelligence".

Perfect way to over complicate the topic, and shoot down any discussion. Then we throw in anecdotes, mix with liberal agenda, sprinkle in some feelings.

The truth is, there is the data is already out there. Do you honestly believe this hasn't already been studied to death? We already deny that there are differences with men and women. They both think identically, right? We ignore the physical differences, ie - black people are generally physically advantaged. There's differences in appearance, body structure, disease, etc etc, yet IQ has to be equal.

One theory I'd like to test, which I know is highly controversial, is the science of evolution. Liberals love their "science". We believe in evolution over religion (which I also agree). Are there no intelligence variables that could have caused some societies to advance quicker and more dominantly over others? Did some just get lucky?
 
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TheMikado

Banned
Egyptians were (and still mostly are) caucasian, as with everyone above the Sahara. For clarification, when semi-literates (no offense JordanN) say "Africans" they almost always mean "Sub-Saharan Africans". There's a reason that DNA sites like 23&Me group North Africa and the Middle East together.

And indeed, sub-saharan africans are one of only a few groups that never experienced an Agricultural revolution, most certainly the largest.

Further, 'words are made up and nothing means anything' is a bad argument. If you are over the age of six and not suffering from any developmental impairments you surely know what he means when he says 'Dutch', The same way you know that a German Shepard does not refer to any dog that happens to live in Germany.

What? Nothing you said was correct. Where are you getting this information?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy
It is now largely agreed that Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to the Nile area. About 5,000 years ago, the Sahara area dried out, and part of the indigenous Saharan population retreated east towards the Nile Valley. In addition, peoples from the Middle East entered the Nile Valley, bringing with them wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and possibly cattle.[24] Dynastic Egyptians referred to their country as "The Two Lands". During the Predynastic period (about 4800 to 4300BC), the Merimde cultureflourished in the northern part of Egypt (Lower Egypt).[25] This culture, among others, has links to the Levant in the Middle East.[26][27] The pottery of the later Buto Maadi culture, best known from the site at Maadi near Cairo, also shows connections to the southern Levant.[28] In the southern part of Egypt (Upper Egypt), the predynastic Badarian culture was followed by the Naqada culture. These people seem to be more closely related to the Nubians than to northern Egyptians.[29][30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Africa#Origins_of_agriculture

Origins of agriculture[edit]
The first agriculture in Africa began in the heart of the Sahara Desert, which in 5200 BC was far more moist and densely populated than today. Several native species were domesticated, most importantly pearl millet, sorghum and cowpeas, which spread through West Africa and the Sahel. The Sahara at this time was like the Sahel today. Its wide open fields made cultivation easy, but the poor soil and limited rain made intensive farming impossible. The local crops were also not ideal and produced fewer calories than those of other regions. These factors limited surpluses and kept populations sparse and scattered.[citation needed]

North Africa took a very different route from the southern regions. Climatically it is linked to the Middle East and the Fertile Crescent, and the agricultural techniques of that region were adopted wholesale. This included a different set of crops, such as wheat, barley, and grapes. North Africa was also blessed by one of the richest agricultural regions in the world in the Nile River valley. With the arrival of agriculture, the Nile region became one of the most densely populated areas in the world, and Egypt home to one of the first civilizations.

The drying of the Sahara created a formidable barrier between the northern and southern portions of the continent. Two important exceptions were Nubian Sudan, which was linked to Egypt by the Nile and Ethiopia, which could trade with the northern regions over the Red Sea. Powerful states grew up in these regions such as Kush in Nubia (modern day Northern Sudan and Southern Egypt) and Aksum in Ethiopia. Especially from Nubia, ideas and technologies from the Middle East and Europe reached the rest of Africa.

Historians believe that iron working developed independently in Africa. Unlike other continents Africa did not have a period of copper and bronze working before their Iron Age. Copper is quite rare in Africa while iron is quite common. In Nubia and Ethiopia, iron, trade, and agricultural surpluses lead to the establishment of cities and civilizations.

The Bantu expansion[edit]
Further information: Bantu expansion
Ordinarily, in the sparsely populated areas, this same period saw the expansion of the Bantu speaking peoples. The Bantu expansion began in Southern Cameroon around 4000 years ago. Bantu languages are spoken there today and there is archaeological evidence for incoming Neolithic farmers in Northern Gabon c. 3800 BC. It is known that Bantu expansion was extremely rapid and massive, but its exact engine remains controversial. This period predated iron, which appears in the archaeological record by 2500 BC.

One of the early expansions of Bantu was the migration of the Bubi to Fernando Po (Bioko). They were still using stone technology at first. The difficulties of cutting down the equatorial forest for farming have led to the suggestion that the primary expansion was along river valleys, a hypothesis supported by studies of fish names. Another factor may have been the arrival of southeast-Asian food crops, notably the AAB plantain, the cocoyam and the water-yam. Linguistic reconstructions suggest that the only livestock possessed by the proto-Bantu was the goat. Over the centuries the entire southern half of Africa was covered with the group, excluding only the Kalahari desert. Their expansion only ended relatively recently. In the year 1000, Arab traders described that the Bantu had not reached as far as Mozambique, and European settlers observed the Bantu expansion into South Africa under the Zulu and others.

The importation Bantu pastoralism reshaped the continent's economy. Sometime in the first millennium, an equally important change began as crops began to arrive from Southeast Asia. The Indian Ocean has always been far more open to trade than the turbulent Atlanticand Pacific. Traders could ride the monsoon winds west early in the year and return east on them later. It is guessed that these crops first arrived in Madagascar, which also adopted Southeast Asian languages, sometime between AD 300 and 800. From the island, the crops crossed to African Great Lakes region. They included many crops, the most important being the banana.

The banana and other crops allowed for more intensive cultivation in the tropical regions of Africa, this was most notable in the Great Lakes region, and area with excellent soil, that saw many cities and states form, their populations being fed largely

Further, agriculture appears to independently appeared in only a few locations world-wide, with much of Europe receiving agriculture at similar times as sub-Saharan Africa. In other parts of the world, particularly the Americas, Mongolia, vast parts of agriculture is almost non-existent in much of the southern hemisphere around and below the equator in all continents, thus Africa and sub-saharan africa being the largest region to not experience an agriculture revolution isn't correct in any amount of framing.

Agriculture+Emerges:+5000-500+BC.jpg
 

TheMikado

Banned
Perfect way to over complicate the topic, and shoot down any discussion. Then we throw in anecdotes, mix with liberal agenda, sprinkle in some feelings.

The truth is, there is the data is already out there. Do you honestly believe this hasn't already been studied to death? We already deny that there are differences with men and women. They both think identically, right? We ignore the physical differences, ie - black people are generally physically advantaged. There's differences in appearance, body structure, disease, etc etc, yet IQ has to be equal.

One theory I'd like to test, which I know is highly controversial, is the science of evolution. Liberals love their "science". We believe in evolution over religion (which I also agree). Are there no intelligence variables that could have caused some societies to advance quicker and more dominantly over others? Did some just get lucky?

As opposed to dumbing down the discussion? Yet simultaneously attempting to talk about science without attempting to use scientific methods??
It's simple science one which you are ignoring. The theory you want to propose CANNOT be tested without first quantifying "race". Which FIRST has to be quantified by genotype vs phenotype. It's simple basis science dude...
It's no "liberal" , its literal S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
 
Yes there is. It’s used to differentiate between people with certain es etc which make them different to others. Lots have to do with evolution

There is one species of human; Homo Sapien. Race is a societal construct and not based in biology.
 

Jmarshall

Member
Yes there is. It’s used to differentiate between people with certain es etc which make them different to others. Lots have to do with evolution
The factors of selection we judge race are massively subjective, we don't class race by height, or eye colour, or hair length or feet size. There are scientific distinctions on all of these upon which we could reclassify race. E.g, all people over 6ft in height by the age of 21 are of the same race.

What we do have is populations within geographic locals with a similar germline.
 
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Dunki

Member
There is one species of human; Homo Sapien. Race is a societal construct and not based in biology.
There were 3 known maybe more Origin races. One in Africa one in Eurasia and one more I Asia. When I get home I will post their so far known movements.
 

Jmarshall

Member
There were 3 known maybe more Origin races. One in Africa one in Eurasia and one more I Asia. When I get home I will post their so far known movements.
Homo Sapien Sapien originated within Africa, there is only one "Origin race" to mankind, despite some interbreeding with Homo Sapien Neanderthal outside Africa.
 

Jmarshall

Member
As opposed to dumbing down the discussion? Yet simultaneously attempting to talk about science without attempting to use scientific methods??
It's simple science one which you are ignoring. The theory you want to propose CANNOT be tested without first quantifying "race". Which FIRST has to be quantified by genotype vs phenotype. It's simple basis science dude...
It's no "liberal" , its literal S-C-I-E-N-C-E.
Absolutely.

So if this is an issue lets talk about Populations, and whether there are policy responses necessary or even current policies that are misguided that need to respond to a variance in IQ across populations.

The obligatory caveat is that IQ variance within populations exceeds variations across populations, so the only moral response is to assess everyone individually, not just on their IQ but on their character.
 

TheMikado

Banned
There were 3 known maybe more Origin races. One in Africa one in Eurasia and one more I Asia. When I get home I will post their so far known movements.
Homo Sapien Sapien originated within Africa, there is only one "Origin race" to mankind, despite some interbreeding with Homo Sapien Neanderthal outside Africa.
The factors of selection we judge race are massively subjective, we don't class race by height, or eye colour, or hair length or feet size. There are scientific distinctions on all of these upon which we could reclassify race. E.g, all people over 6ft in height by the age of 21 are of the same race.

What we do have is populations within geographic locals with a similar germline.
Yes there is. It’s used to differentiate between people with certain es etc which make them different to others. Lots have to do with evolution
There is no biological or scientific basis for race.

So all of this is true but this is why this has been genetically proven that our ideas of race are inaccurate.

These middle-school level videos may help the discussion.




Basically. It is important to understand Genotype vs Phenotype.

We can see that in certain parts and regions of the world there are similar visual phenotype traits which develop regardless of genotype or genetic similarity.

The major "races" are negroid, mongoloid, and Caucasoid. The issue with these categorizations is that they are not based on anything other than PHENOTYPE. Meaning they CAN or CANNOT be genetically similar.

For instance, Aboriginal peoples are often categorized as Negroid due to expressed PHENOTYPE. While their GENOTYPE is actually closer to that of South Asians. Meaning genetically,

This guy,
T
482ee441c0722d2866f4f1fac4c492c9.jpg


is likely more genetically closer to this guy

e659eaa6e160fb6a8b12185abad33972.jpg


Than this guy

36451536.Aboriginalmanforweb.jpg


Who is likely more genetically similar to this guy

stock-photo-shutterstock-thai-Hair-Style-Man-Thai-man-big-afro-hairstyle-stock-photo-shutterstock-two-block-hair-style-youtube-two-Hair.jpg


Which is why the discussion of race based strictly on not having it defined as genotype or phenotype is worthless. Until we can agree on what an actually definition of race is and how to quantify it, its impossible to have discussions of its cause of occurrence of any trait surrounding race.
 

Greedings

Member
There is one species of human; Homo Sapien. Race is a societal construct and not based in biology.

So what? What has 1 species got to do with more than 1 "race"?
Race isn't defined scientifically, I completely agree. It's an incredibly nebulous concept, but there can be multiple "strains" or "breeds" or "races" within a species.
Saying it's a social construct is not quite true though. Different races have different genetic variants - east Asians cannot metabolise alcohol like Europeans. People of African origin have increased prevalence of sickle cell anaemia, and are highly suceptible to cardiac disease. Almost all Native Americans are lactose intolerant, and people of Northern Europe are more likely to develop cystic fibrosis.

Look at mice. C57BL/6. BALB/C. 129S1. To name but 3. All are phenotypically and genotypically different, have different fur, different genetic profiles, different SNPs, different susceptibility to different diseases. For example, BALB/C mice don't develop obesity-induced insulin resistance, while C57BL/6 are incredibly susceptible to it. On the other hand BALB/C mice are prone to models of asthma, while C57s are relatively resistant.
All the mouse strains can interbreed and produce fertile offspring (the hallmark of a single species). Sound similar to race? I think it does.
The difference is, that mouse stains are all in-bred. So each mouse has extremely high genetic similarity to its parents, and to it's great-great-great-great grandparents. Many are derived from a couple of mouse pairings in the 60's (date might be incorrect) which had the embryos frozen, humans are not in-bred. It is much harder to nail down which things are associated with with "strain" or "race" of human due to the vast history of human genetic mixing.

Race won't ever be well defined scientifically, because it's too toxic to a person's career to do so. That doesn't mean there isn't a genetic basis to it.
 
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TheMikado

Banned
Absolutely.

So if this is an issue lets talk about Populations, and whether there are policy responses necessary or even current policies that are misguided that need to respond to a variance in IQ across populations.

The obligatory caveat is that IQ variance within populations exceeds variations across populations, so the only moral response is to assess everyone individually, not just on their IQ but on their character.

Which is agreed. I honestly don't understand the argument that we can't define what things are first in order to explain them. I'm still trying to wrap my head around that argument that attempting to scientifically categorize things is somehow a political agenda.
 

Dunki

Member
So all of this is true but this is why this has been genetically proven that our ideas of race are inaccurate.

These middle-school level videos may help the discussion.




Basically. It is important to understand Genotype vs Phenotype.

We can see that in certain parts and regions of the world there are similar visual phenotype traits which develop regardless of genotype or genetic similarity.

The major "races" are negroid, mongoloid, and Caucasoid. The issue with these categorizations is that they are not based on anything other than PHENOTYPE. Meaning they CAN or CANNOT be genetically similar.

For instance, Aboriginal peoples are often categorized as Negroid due to expressed PHENOTYPE. While their GENOTYPE is actually closer to that of South Asians. Meaning genetically,

This guy,
T
482ee441c0722d2866f4f1fac4c492c9.jpg


is likely more genetically closer to this guy

e659eaa6e160fb6a8b12185abad33972.jpg


Than this guy

36451536.Aboriginalmanforweb.jpg


Who is likely more genetically similar to this guy

stock-photo-shutterstock-thai-Hair-Style-Man-Thai-man-big-afro-hairstyle-stock-photo-shutterstock-two-block-hair-style-youtube-two-Hair.jpg


Which is why the discussion of race based strictly on not having it defined as genotype or phenotype is worthless. Until we can agree on what an actually definition of race is and how to quantify it, its impossible to have discussions of its cause of occurrence of any trait surrounding race.

I think we had this discussion before here. I possted an article that showed why this is the case. Sorry it has been a while but if you can not remember I will search ofr it later again. Also RAce is a wrod to define not to tell people how superior they are. Thats why it should be only used in sdcientific discussions and not in norml everyday life since you will drift very easy into the racism corner.
 
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TheMikado

Banned
I think we had this discussion before here. I possted an article that showed why this is the case. Sorry it has been a while but if you can not remember I will search ofr it later again.

We did and it comes down to the same issue. "Race" is poorly scientifically defined. Which is why trying to apply science to a non-scientific term doesn't make sense until we define the term "Race" scientifically.

Personally I don't care which way we want to define race, but if we want to do any scientific assessments of it we need to have a working definition first.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Try plotting two hypothetical normal distributions for a mean IQ difference of say 10 and look at the overlapping region. There will be many individuals in the distribution with the higher mean who are dumber than the average individual of the distribution with the lower mean.

Stop thinking in terms of group identity and treat people as individuals.

YES! It's weird that some people WANT there to be a hard-coded difference between intelligence and race. I can understand why a racist would want this to be true. But I don't honestly believe everyone that wants there to be a difference is necessarily racist. So what gives?
 
The comment that biology would be racist if such a link is found true is nonsense, if it were true reality itself cannot be biased, it has no mind.

For example take skin color, at northern latitudes lighter skin allows for more vitamin D production from solar exposure. While Darker skin protects more from sun exposure at lower latitudes. Is the added skin damage of someone that works at lower latitudes with lighter skin racist? Is the added problems from lack of vitamin D, unless they supplement, for people of Dark Skin at northern latitudes racist? No it's just the way things are.


We did and it comes down to the same issue. "Race" is poorly scientifically defined. Which is why trying to apply science to a non-scientific term doesn't make sense until we define the term "Race" scientifically.

Personally I don't care which way we want to define race, but if we want to do any scientific assessments of it we need to have a working definition first.

I was seeing an average IQ by U.S. state chart, haven't checked the source thoroughly, but there is variation of a few points between states. The idea that there would be no difference between ethnicities, or that all ethnic differences are a social construct is suspect. The frequency of certain mutations, or alleles, may very well vary between mostly isolated populations. The brain is the most energetically expensive organ and one that should be subject to the strongest and fastest acting evolutionary pressure. If a group faced extraordinary challenges and had access to cooking and good nutrition, it would be positively affected.

Phenotype, does not mean just external skin characteristics, but internal ones as well, brain structure, connectivity, and cellular functions, things that are being linked to intelligence and creativity.

Eventually the genetics of intelligence will be understood. And it will be possible to check in which regions certain versions of genes are more common or more rare. This will tell you if they are indeed equally common across all regions of the world and all ethnicities, but that seems doubtful.
 
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ProudClod

Non-existent Member
This is a very difficult conversation that needs to happen. We can't stick our heads into the sand and ignore reality, just because some people might be upset by it.

If there is indeed a correlation between race and IQ, our plans to create equal opportunity and "level the playing field" need to take this factor into account. If the disparity between races can be partially explained by IQ differences -- it would be prudent (and necessary), to consider this fact in our policy creation. We need to fund more research, not less. We need to de-stigmatize the conversation so researchers can start answering some big questions:
  • How much does environment, culture, nutrition, and education play a role in IQ?
  • If these factors do play a role in IQ, how large of an increase can we expect by controlling for them?
  • What would be the most effective way of controlling for these factors on a large scale?

Here's where I stand on this topic.

IQ tests are not the be-all-end-all of an objective intelligence metric. They are, however, the absolute best attempt that humans have been capable of creating. Furthermore, for practical purposes, you don't need a 1:1 correspondence between IQ and some nebulous "objective" intelligence. You merely need to prove that there is a correlation between this metric and success (educational, financial, etc.).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/09/16/is-iq-a-predictor-of-success/#6a0d6d8d3604

So while I agree with arguments that intelligence is a much more complicated topic than this -- IQ nevertheless has far-reaching practical applications. If this is our best metric for predicting success, wouldn't it make sense to factor it into our analysis of inequality?

I agree that race is a human construct.

In-so-far that dog breeds are also a human construct. We can all agree that dogs are all just basically wolves that have been bred for different characteristics. The fact that any type of dog can breed with any other type is clear evidence that they are of the same overarching species. Nevertheless, there are clear, objective differences between different breeds of dogs. Some are more intelligent, some have more muscle mass, some have different skeletal structures, some run faster, some can handle the cold better, etc. If that wasn't the case, you'd see pugs winning derbies and poodles pulling dog-sleds.

Despite dogs being very genetically similar to each other, humans sub-categorize them by outward appearance, skeletal structure, capability, etc.

This is how biology works. There are no well-defined lines between related species -- and all life on our planet has more genetic commonalities than differences. So humans have to categorize biology in order to make distinctions. Otherwise we're all just a soup of floating cells.

However:

Treating other human beings as anything but individuals is not only deeply immoral, but also plain silly. On average (and in the extremes), men are more aggressive than women, for example. However, if you picked a random man and woman out of the population, and guessed that the man was more aggressive -- you'd only be right 60% of the time. That's almost coin toss. Statistical differences that may have sweeping effects on population levels (i.e. vast majority of prison inmates are men), become almost entirely irrelevant on an individual basis. So it is not only moral, but logical to treat everyone as an individual.

Nevertheless -- IQ differences between races must be talked about honestly, and openly, if we are to have any hopes of improving opportunities on a population level.
 

TheMikado

Banned
This is a very difficult conversation that needs to happen. We can't stick our heads into the sand and ignore reality, just because some people might be upset by it.

If there is indeed a correlation between race and IQ, our plans to create equal opportunity and "level the playing field" need to take this factor into account. If the disparity between races can be partially explained by IQ differences -- it would be prudent (and necessary), to consider this fact in our policy creation. We need to fund more research, not less. We need to de-stigmatize the conversation so researchers can start answering some big questions:
  • How much does environment, culture, nutrition, and education play a role in IQ?
  • If these factors do play a role in IQ, how large of an increase can we expect by controlling for them?
  • What would be the most effective way of controlling for these factors on a large scale?

Here's where I stand on this topic.

IQ tests are not the be-all-end-all of an objective intelligence metric. They are, however, the absolute best attempt that humans have been capable of creating. Furthermore, for practical purposes, you don't need a 1:1 correspondence between IQ and some nebulous "objective" intelligence. You merely need to prove that there is a correlation between this metric and success (educational, financial, etc.).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2015/09/16/is-iq-a-predictor-of-success/#6a0d6d8d3604

So while I agree with arguments that intelligence is a much more complicated topic than this -- IQ nevertheless has far-reaching practical applications. If this is our best metric for predicting success, wouldn't it make sense to factor it into our analysis of inequality?

I agree that race is a human construct.

In-so-far that dog breeds are also a human construct. We can all agree that dogs are all just basically wolves that have been bred for different characteristics. The fact that any type of dog can breed with any other type is clear evidence that they are of the same overarching species. Nevertheless, there are clear, objective differences between different breeds of dogs. Some are more intelligent, some have more muscle mass, some have different skeletal structures, some run faster, some can handle the cold better, etc. If that wasn't the case, you'd see pugs winning derbies and poodles pulling dog-sleds.

Despite dogs being very genetically similar to each other, humans sub-categorize them by outward appearance, skeletal structure, capability, etc.

This is how biology works. There are no well-defined lines between related species -- and all life on our planet has more genetic commonalities than differences. So humans have to categorize biology in order to make distinctions. Otherwise we're all just a soup of floating cells.

However:

Treating other human beings as anything but individuals is not only deeply immoral, but also plain silly. On average (and in the extremes), men are more aggressive than women, for example. However, if you picked a random man and woman out of the population, and guessed that the man was more aggressive -- you'd only be right 60% of the time. That's almost coin toss. Statistical differences that may have sweeping effects on population levels (i.e. vast majority of prison inmates are men), become almost entirely irrelevant on an individual basis. So it is not only moral, but logical to treat everyone as an individual.

Nevertheless -- IQ differences between races must be talked about honestly, and openly, if we are to have any hopes of improving opportunities on a population level.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't. The problem is we can't define race so we can't even start the conversation. We can't even decide if race should be defined by genetics or by phenotype.
As soon as we make that decision the discussion can continue forward otherwise we don't even know what to talk about or discuss.
 
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I don't think anyone is saying you can't. The problem is we can't define race so we can't even start the conversation. We can't even decide if race should be defined by genetics or by phenotype.
As soon as we make that decision the discussion can continue forward otherwise we don't even know what to talk about or discuss.
The expression of certain genes determine external phenotype. And if we include internal phenotype, that is also determined by genetic expression.

Phenotype in the end boils down to how genes express themselves in certain environmental conditions. It is not entirely distinct from genetics but a product of genetics.
 
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JordanN

Banned
YES! It's weird that some people WANT there to be a hard-coded difference between intelligence and race.
In the same way that I want to believe there are hard-coded differences between women and men. It doesn't mean I'm sexist. Quite the opposite.
Telling everyone they are equal no matter what, is creating a world of mass delusion and false hopes. Imagine if a woman boxer went up against a man thinking she is equal in all ways? The reality of genetics is that men are almost always going to be disproportionately stronger. Again, I'm not a sexist for wanting to save a woman in this case from a beat down.

It's the same thing with race. If we were all the same intellect, surely the world would already be a better place no? There would be no tech disparity since every race would be able to create civilization on par with the best.
Yet IQ studies have confirmed time after time, it is not the case.

9CLHeWK.png


Look at the countries in red. Is it not a coincidence that literally every area that has huge groups of sub-saharan Africans are struggling to keep up with every 1st world country?
And I know the answer you're going to say "it's because of racism/colonization that are Africans are at the bottom". Even with the end of colonial/white rule, every single African majority area is still poorer at a higher rate than every other race in the world. At what point does it not stop being a coincidence that the same group of people who were discovered still living in the bronze age up into the 18th century, might have a tougher time adjusting to the modern world than other races who manage to progress at a faster rate?

Even the countries that weren't colonized still are immensely behind all Western countries in living standards.

This problem is now exacerbated when you consider the continent is highly dependent on foreign aid, and yet the population continues to explode at a record pace. Again, I'm not being racist by saying intelligence is definitely holding a lot of Africans back from progressing into the 1st world. We can't keep ignoring this, while having to feed people who still struggle to feed themselves.

as5NX2x.gif


Africa is growing by a lot, even more so than Europe. But if the continent can't support themselves, who will when they surpass everyone in numbers?

I4zdpTG.jpg
 
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TheMikado

Banned
The expression of certain genes determine external phenotype. And if we include internal phenotype, that is also determined by genetic expression.

Phenotype in the end boils down to how genes express themselves in certain environmental conditions. It is not entirely distinct from genetics but a product of genetics.

Phenotype, can be an expression of certain genes, but that doesn't indicate proximity or grouping of genetics.
Example, assuming all those which blond hair are more genetically similar than brunettes would exclude siblings or parents who may not share the same phenotype and false assume that because they do not have the same outward genetic expression, their genes are more dissimilar than someone who is not directly related but shares similar visual expression.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
In the same way that I want to believe there are hard-coded differences between women and men. It doesn't mean I'm sexist. Quite the opposite.
Telling everyone they are equal no matter what, is creating a world of mass delusion and false hopes. Imagine if a woman boxer went up against a man thinking she is equal in all ways? The reality of genetics is that men are almost always going to be disproportionately stronger. Again, I'm not a sexist for wanting to save a woman in this case from a beat down.

It's the same thing with race. If we were all the same intellect, surely the world would already be a better place no? There would be no tech disparity since every race would be able to create civilization on par with the best.
Yet IQ studies have confirmed time after time, it is not the case.

9CLHeWK.png


Look at the countries in red. Is it not a coincidence that literally every area that has huge groups of sub-saharan Africans are struggling to keep up with every 1st world country?
And I know the answer you're going to say "it's because of racism/colonization that are Africans are at the bottom". Even with the end of colonial/white rule, every single African majority area is still poorer at a higher rate than every other race in the world. At what point does it not stop being a coincidence that the same group of people who were discovered still living in the bronze age up into the 18th century, might have a tougher time adjusting to the modern world than other races who manage to progress at a faster rate?

Even the countries that weren't colonized still are immensely behind all Western countries in living standards.

This problem is now exacerbated when you consider the continent is highly dependent on foreign aid, and yet the population continues to explode at a record pace. Again, I'm not being racist by saying intelligence is definitely holding a lot of Africans back from progressing into the 1st world. We can't keep ignoring this, while having to feed people who still struggle to feed themselves.

as5NX2x.gif


Africa is growing by a lot, even more so than Europe. But if the continent can't support themselves, who will when they surpass everyone in numbers?

I4zdpTG.jpg


Your problem is you think I believe everyone is the same. I don't. I don't think all races are the same either. But it's worrying that you believe that the type of technology a society has equals how smart they are, instead of it only displaying the type of society that they have/are.

War and murder will stop a smart kid from changing his life, his family's life, and the life of the world. Let us not act like black people aren't intelligent by looking at Africa as a continent (and coming to one conclusion).
 

Nabbis

Member
The expression of certain genes determine external phenotype. And if we include internal phenotype, that is also determined by genetic expression.

Phenotype in the end boils down to how genes express themselves in certain environmental conditions. It is not entirely distinct from genetics but a product of genetics.

It's nearly impossible to get to the point where you can have complete models on how intelligence formulates with other variables outside basic hereditary data like epigenetics and mutagenic factors etc. Solving how intelligence even operates is already a nobel winning, hell, era changing task.
 
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ProudClod

Non-existent Member
I don't think anyone is saying you can't. The problem is we can't define race so we can't even start the conversation. We can't even decide if race should be defined by genetics or by phenotype.
As soon as we make that decision the discussion can continue forward otherwise we don't even know what to talk about or discuss.

It seems to me like you're moving the goalpost.

The genotype / phenotype debate is, again, irrelevant, in the same way we don't quite care about it in the context of dog breeds. We already have descriptive, well-defined categories of humans. These are the same exact categories that we use for forensic databases, census data, social psychology research, medicine, etc.

White
Black
Hispanic
Native
East Asian
South Asian
Mixed Ethnicity

You can further divide each of these categories, no doubt. White can be Western, Northern, or Eastern European. Each sub-category can be even further divided -- to an almost infinite level of granularity. Likewise, every species of plant and animal can also be divided to a near infinite granularity.

And yes, these distinctions are largely arbitrary. If humans were a blind species, perhaps we would categorize races based on vocal tenor, body odor, or skin roughness. Perhaps, being calibrated to pay attention to those differences, we would find that people with a certain vocal range or cadence were more likely to be successful in this hypothetical society.

But all of that is completely irrelevant.

The point is simple. We have created categories of humans based on their looks and recent ancestry. People overwhelmingly self-identify as belonging to one of those categories. Our social systems take these categories into account. And we noticed that there is a large discrepancy in performance between these categories.

The question is, now, do we stick our heads in the sand and ignore these differences?

Or do we try and figure out what's causing them, and how to ameliorate them?
 

TheMikado

Banned
In the same way that I want to believe there are hard-coded differences between women and men. It doesn't mean I'm sexist. Quite the opposite.
Telling everyone they are equal no matter what, is creating a world of mass delusion and false hopes. Imagine if a woman boxer went up against a man thinking she is equal in all ways? The reality of genetics is that men are almost always going to be disproportionately stronger. Again, I'm not a sexist for wanting to save a woman in this case from a beat down.

It's the same thing with race. If we were all the same intellect, surely the world would already be a better place no? There would be no tech disparity since every race would be able to create civilization on par with the best.
Yet IQ studies have confirmed time after time, it is not the case.

9CLHeWK.png


Look at the countries in red. Is it not a coincidence that literally every area that has huge groups of sub-saharan Africans are struggling to keep up with every 1st world country?
And I know the answer you're going to say "it's because of racism/colonization that are Africans are at the bottom". Even with the end of colonial/white rule, every single African majority area is still poorer at a higher rate than every other race in the world. At what point does it not stop being a coincidence that the same group of people who were discovered still living in the bronze age up into the 18th century, might have a tougher time adjusting to the modern world than other races who manage to progress at a faster rate?

Even the countries that weren't colonized still are immensely behind all Western countries in living standards.

This problem is now exacerbated when you consider the continent is highly dependent on foreign aid, and yet the population continues to explode at a record pace. Again, I'm not being racist by saying intelligence is definitely holding a lot of Africans back from progressing into the 1st world. We can't keep ignoring this, while having to feed people who still struggle to feed themselves.

as5NX2x.gif


Africa is growing by a lot, even more so than Europe. But if the continent can't support themselves, who will when they surpass everyone in numbers?


I don't have time to debunk the whole thing so I will leave with some information which another person with similar thinking found.

https://jasonbayz.wordpress.com/2017/09/18/changing-my-mind-about-race-and-iq/

chisala-3.png
 
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TheMikado

Banned
It seems to me like you're moving the goalpost.

The genotype / phenotype debate is, again, irrelevant, in the same way we don't quite care about it in the context of dog breeds. We already have descriptive, well-defined categories of humans. These are the same exact categories that we use for forensic databases, census data, social psychology research, medicine, etc.

White
Black
Hispanic
Native
East Asian
South Asian
Mixed Ethnicity

You can further divide each of these categories, no doubt. White can be Western, Northern, or Eastern European. Each sub-category can be even further divided -- to an almost infinite level of granularity. Likewise, every species of plant and animal can also be divided to a near infinite granularity.

And yes, these distinctions are largely arbitrary. If humans were a blind species, perhaps we would categorize races based on vocal tenor, body odor, or skin roughness. Perhaps, being calibrated to pay attention to those differences, we would find that people with a certain vocal range or cadence were more likely to be successful in this hypothetical society.

But all of that is completely irrelevant.

The point is simple. We have created categories of humans based on their looks and recent ancestry. People overwhelmingly self-identify as belonging to one of those categories. Our social systems take these categories into account. And we noticed that there is a large discrepancy in performance between these categories.

The question is, now, do we stick our heads in the sand and ignore these differences?

Or do we try and figure out what's causing them, and how to ameliorate them?

No we don't that's the entire point I am making. They are primarily based on genotype. Like saying a German Shepard and Black Retriever are more genetically similarly because they are similar size and color.

Its the same thing I've said the entire thread. When you are miscategorizing Aboriginals as genetically similar to South and Central Africans while they are more genetically similar to south Asians then you have a severe problem in your categorization and identification system. That's the point.

There is no goalpost movement, its a legitimate question of what is phenotype related and what is genetic related.
 
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