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"Because you're worthless: the dark side of indie PR"

ZServ

Member
Found this article browsing the web earlier. It's an interesting look at the developer-player relationship and how it's been changed due to the advent of Steam, the Humble Indie Bundle, and how potentially the more successful indies gain their success.

The more we argue, the more we bait the trolls, the more we seem to get into a death spiral of internet hate… the better it is for us. There is no such thing as bad publicity. Phil Fish may have turned in to a gibbering bearded recluse but now he’s a famous gibbering bearded recluse. Phil Fish only has to tweet a fart and it’ll be all over the internet. Given that discovery is the #1 problem for an indie developer (and always has been), you can see that the more infamous and terrible we are … the more money we make.

But it’s absolutely, utterly fucking forbidden to ever say so.

Good old Phil is sitting pretty on a giant mound of cash the likes of which you will probably not even be able to comprehend, let alone earn in your lifetime. For every one of you that enjoyed denigrating him and thrilled at insulting him, there are now another thousand people who listen to every word he says. When he walks into the restaurant where you pitifully scrub the floor like a servile wretch in order to pay for DLC in DOTA2, you’ll call him sir.

Then Steam came (and to a lesser extent, Big Fish Games).

Things changed fast. So fast that in other industries it would have been seen as a cataclymically disruptive event. The upshot of it is, within 5 short years, the value of an independent game plummeted from about $20 to approximately $1, with very few exceptions. Steam is great! You can sell loads of games! But only if they’re less than $10. Technically Valve don’t actually dictate the prices we charge. Actually, they do. Utterly. It’s just not talked about. In fact technically, I don’t think anyone’s allowed to talk about it.

Then came the Humble Bundle and all its little imitators.

It was another cataclysmically disruptive event, so soon on the heels of the last. Suddenly you’ve got a massive problem on your hands. You’ve sold 40,000 games! But you’ve only made enough money to survive full-time for two weeks because you’re selling them for 10 cents each. And several hundred new customers suddenly want their computers fixing for free. And when the dust from all the bundles has settled you’re left with a market expectation of games now that means you can only sell them for a dollar. That’s how much we sell our games for. One dollar. They’re meant to be $10, but nobody buys them at $10. They buy them when a 90% discount coupon lands in their Steam inventory. We survive only by the grace of 90% coupon drops, which are of course entirely under Valve’s control. It doesn’t matter how much marketing we do now, because Valve control our drip feed.

Where does this lead us to?

You are worthless to us.

Where once you were worth $20, and then you might have become a fan and bought another 4 games off of us for $20, you were worth $100. We only had to fix your computer for you once, as well, so the next four games amortised the cost of the initial support. If we were lucky you were a gamer and already had drivers and liked our stuff and bought the lot. Sometimes you’d tell your friends and maybe one of them would buy a game from us.

But now?

Now you’re worth $1 to us. If you buy every one of our games, you’re worth $5. After Valve and the tax man and the bank take their cuts, you’re not even worth half a cup of coffee. So, while we’re obsequiously polite and helpful when you do contact us for support, even if it’s just the same old “please install some actual video drivers” response, you really should be aware that you are a dead loss. Even if you buy everything we ever make again. Even if all your friends buy everything we ever make again. You just cost us money. Not just fictitious, huge-piles-of-filthy-lucre indie-game-developer who made-it-big money. All our money. We barely scratch a living, like most indie game developers. You quite literally cost us lunch because the shop sold you a computer with broken software on it.

Another link to the article, in case you skimmed the thread and are now interested.

So, what do you think GAF? IndieGAF? Are we worthless? Is this an accurate way of viewing things? Or is it a way to shun the problem onto others?
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
It's just a way to blame consumers for their problems.

No one would give a flying fuck about Phil Fish if his game wasn't good. There are plenty of abrasive asshole indie devs who still aren't shit because their games are garbage.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
Treat your customers like a single customer is every customer, and also like a single customer is an island. Which is to say, don't fret a single customer making waves, but don't pretend like you can afford to piss off "just one customer" over and over again.

This article was phrased hyper aggressively and makes it very hard to agree with, BTW.
 
This is very interesting. Videogames are definitely becoming a commodity due to the expansion of the market. I don't know if that's a healthy environment for quality and creativity to thrive.
 

linko9

Member
That person seems extremely bitter for little reason other than "internet comments are mean-spirited." While that's true, I don't see how responding in kind is supposed to help. His main gripe seems to be that games are too cheap these days on steam, etc. And yet lots of studios thrive in this marketplace making well-received games that get much more praise than derision (a situation which the author claims is non-existent).
 

marcellok

Member
I don't feel like it's putting the blame on the consumer. The devs that came before, and the platforms they are on, created this race to the bottom, and now any dev going into it suffers from it. And it means that each customer gives them so little money on average, that they aren't worth dealing with.
 

Zia

Member
Aren't Puppy Games working on their last game before they close up shop? I think there's a bit of truth there but it reads a one last gasped "fuck you" in a company's death throes. They've been in Humble bundles (plural) and they've featured on Steam. There are many other devs capable of doing more with less, and I think the author paints with some broad, agitated strokes.
 

SRG01

Member
It's kind of like the App Store phenomenon. People will pay hundreds of dollars for an iPhone, ridiculous amounts of money for their daily coffee, but will absolutely not pay more than 99 cents for an app on their phone.
 
I get what is being said but if a game is trash it will sell like trash. If a game is good then I don't mind paying full price for it. I get most of my games on day one but I like to wait for a price drop if I can.
 

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
This is very interesting. Videogames are definitely becoming a commodity due to the expansion of the market. I don't know if that's a healthy environment for quality and creativity to thrive.

I was literally just saying the same thing as that being my biggest worry about the longterm industry in the NPD thread
 

marcellok

Member
I get what is being said but if a game is trash it will sell like trash. If a game is good then I don't mind paying full price for it. I get most of my games on day one but I like to wait for a price drop if I can.

And he's saying you are one of a few. He's saying most customers won't even look at their games until their $1, or less.
 
I agree about Steam/Valve devaluing the price of games. The App Store/Google Play are doing this to an extent too.

Nobody buys games at full price on Steam because they know they'll be discounted soon. And that's a bad way of looking at things imo.
 

jwhit28

Member
I would also say that for the most part the developer is worthless to us. If they drop out of the game, oh well. I lose an Indie Bundle game I probably wouldn't have bothered installing, or I skip a game that I could have spent my last $2.50 in Steam credit on. There will be others.
 
I agree about Steam/Valve devaluing the price of games. The App Store/Google Play are doing this to an extent too.

Nobody buys games at full price on Steam because they know they'll be discounted soon. And that's a bad way of looking at things imo.
huh

have you ever looked at the best sellers after a big release
 

Amir0x

Banned
I buy most of my games at prices much closer to full than half off. So I am not worthless. However, if they disagree with the terms of Steam, they should look to other forms of distribution. It's not the best answer, but there are other places where price drops are less frequent and interesting indies can still make a name for themselves.

The only time I won't is when I genuinely don't feel it's worth more. Like, I don't feel the Wolf Among Us was worth more than $15 for the five episodes, so I wouldn't pay more.
 

Renekton

Member
I agree about Steam/Valve devaluing the price of games. The App Store/Google Play are doing this to an extent too.

Nobody buys games at full price on Steam because they know they'll be discounted soon. And that's a bad way of looking at things imo.
I always wondered how profitable Steam is for publishers.

People seem conditioned to wait for 75% - 90% steam sales.
 
huh

have you ever looked at the best sellers after a big release
Yes, but that's nothing compared to the amount of copies things sell when they go -50%, -80% etc. Which they do not long after launch, which means a lot of people will hold off.
I always wondered how profitable Steam is for publishers.

People seem conditioned to wait for 75% - 90% steam sales.
I have no idea, I've wondered that too.
 
Welcome to the situation every other person trying to sell digital goods on the internet finds themselves in. This is not just an indie gaming problem. This is every industry, and especially visible with apps and music.

A whole generation has grown up believing "things should be free" on the internet. Because digital works are somehow less real or something. More broadly, I think humans just haven't yet evolved to consider digital goods as "real". So the money-for-product exchange just doesn't exist for many people when talking about the digital space.

But ultimately, indie studios still have the agency to choose how to sell their goods. You can blame Valve and bundles for all your woes, but it was your decision to sell them there. So, don't. Put them on the PS4. Set up your own store. Recoup your dev costs up-front by doing a Kickstarter. Don't let Valve push you around the same way Amazon is trying to push around content creators.
 

Soulflarz

Banned
It's just a way to blame consumers for their problems.

No one would give a flying fuck about Phil Fish if his game wasn't good. There are plenty of abrasive asshole indie devs who still aren't shit because their games are garbage.
.


And to this day, i would not own a single copy of Fez if i hadnt gotten it for $2.50 and ps+
And ive never played it whatsoever.

I get what hes saying, but does he account for the large amount of sales from people who will never play it but got it due to a sale?
 

Mechazawa

Member
Boy that entire article is a 100% fresh meltdown. Blame customers for everything, cry about how you're not allowed to stand up for yourself, uses dumb internet terms as a catch-all for customers and ratchet the hyperbole to to 11. And oh no, you're now forced to be "PC"!
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
It's just a way to blame consumers for their problems.

No one would give a flying fuck about Phil Fish if his game wasn't good. There are plenty of abrasive asshole indie devs who still aren't shit because their games are garbage.

fantastic post, +1
 
I agree about Steam/Valve devaluing the price of games. The App Store/Google Play are doing this to an extent too.

Nobody buys games at full price on Steam because they know they'll be discounted soon. And that's a bad way of looking at things imo.

This. The way the PC gaming market and the mobile market works is horrible for the industry's long term. Things are being created, but we value these forms of entertainment so damn low compared to everything else. The only way to recoup the cost is to sell tens of thousands to millions of copies or rely on DLC and/or microtransactions.

It's also a parallel problem to AAA game development where it's getting to to be millions to develop a game, and when all is said and done, the games need to sell multi-millions to be profitable. Neither side can sustain this for long before the quality of games development drops or game developers become more and more like starving artists.
 

mdubs

Banned
#Iwatawasright

Insane that people expect a huge level of support from an indie dev when they've gone and dropped only a dollar or whatever on a game.
 

Jarmel

Banned
He's absolutely right but it's the age we live in. Same issue with apps but at least with apps, there are seemingly more ways to get revenue and less variants of hardware making big fixing easier.
 

Playdor

Member
Pricing of a game and whether people buy it for that price depends on the game itself. You can't expect people to pay $20 for a simple puzzle game. An epic graphical experiences with depth and story has more chance.
 

lt519

Member
If you make a game people can't resist you'll make plenty off of the initial release and then steam sales simply give it legs and new customers it would have never seen in the first place. How many games have YOU BOUGHT AND NEVER PLAYED from a steam sale or humble bundle. I don't buy that it does more harm if you actually make a good game. Also stop developing for only PC then? Seems like whining to me.
 
It's kind of like the App Store phenomenon. People will pay hundreds of dollars for an iPhone, ridiculous amounts of money for their daily coffee, but will absolutely not pay more than 99 cents for an app on their phone.

The precedent was set years ago, and at this point you can't expect anyone to want it to change. It wasn't that people wouldn't pay more than 99 cents for an app, it's that for some reason that became generally accepted pricing.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Pricing of a game and whether people buy it for that price depends on the game itself. You can't expect people to pay $20 for a simple puzzle game. An epic graphical experiences with depth and story has more chance.

Problem is with Steam, is that many people are just waiting for the next Steam sale. By having these large sales so often, it does somewhat devalue the market as a whole and what gamers are potentially willing to spend even for full fledged experiences.
 
I have a number of problems with this article, not the least of which is that the writer seems to have a huge misconception of how much money indie game developers make. Which is odd, considering they are an indie developer themselves.

I don't know anything about Phil Fish's finances, but considering Fez's sales, I think it's probably disingenuous to say he has a "giant mound of cash." I'm sure he is comfortable. But to go into the commoditization of games and platform cuts and taxes and all that in the article and then to speculate that Fish is super wealthy seems... crazy.

All the other stuff... I understand where they are coming from, but this clearly seems like the wrong approach to take about it. Indie developers today have to be marketing, PR, and personalities all the while doing the design and/or development of the game. You can choose to act how this person has and go on a rant or you can choose a different tone. There are plenty of indie developers out there who no one has ever been truly mad at on the level of Phil Fish or whoever else. Why? Because they made a good product and communicated effectively with their customers.

It's normal for anyone in any industry to deal with bad customers and it's normal to get frustrated or even mad about it. But you can either be a jerk to those people in a public setting or you can try to make the best of a bad situation. Some people are more talented at that than others. I suggest to indie developers who can't handle the pressure of dealing with customers or speaking publicly about their products that they appoint someone who can.
 

Sanic

Member
Looking forward to seeing how things pan out when Steam opens up to everyone.

Just a couple of years ago (say, 2011), launching on Steam was a guaranteed ticket to success and sustained revenue in most cases. Not at all the case today.
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
Eh, trouble shooting is part of the game. Everyone around here on GAF should know about the horror stories of IT to know that there are absolute idiots out there running computers and they have a voice and the ability to rank your product on an even level as people who actually know what they're doing.

Sometimes I think there should be an app that scans your computer for obvious problems before you're allowed to put in a ticket. At least point out things before you go on the warpath.

But then I realize that idea is stupid in and of itself and I shelve it.
 

lt519

Member
Problem is with Steam, is that many people are just waiting for the next Steam sale. By having these large sales so often, it does somewhat devalue the market as a whole and what gamers are potentially willing to spend even for full fledged experiences.

I'd like to see the numbers on this. I personally think for every person that is patient enough to wait 3 months for a steam sale, that sale will introduce/re-introduce it to 10-15 people that never even gave it a first look or never had intentions of buying it full price in the first place.

But I don't know squat, just curious.
 

Monocle

Member
The tone of that article is too confrontational for the author's point to land as well as it might have. I feel like some random person wants to punch me, personally, in the face for not giving them money.

Sorry your career isn't working out bud, but I have my own problems.
 

njean777

Member
I'd like to see the numbers on this. I personally think for every person that is patient enough to wait 3 months for a steam sale, that sale will introduce/re-introduce it to 10-15 people that never even gave it a first look or never had intentions of buying it full price in the first place.

But I don't know squat, just curious.

I think it can work both ways in some cases. There are most certainly people who will not by any circumstance pay full price for a game, but I personally do not know how big of a number those people make up in the grand scheme of things.
 

Syril

Member
I think the fact that they're openly contemptuous of their own customers might be a bigger problem here for them.
 

doofy102

Member
He shouldn't have written it like this.

Article could've been a good, angry article to steam and the system. Instead it was a "Fuck you, players."
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
To a degree the problem IMO is the internet itself. If you can get to a net connection and open a browser, stop and think about how much content is "free" from your perspective. Millions of sites, reading material, videos, and entertainment. At most with some annoying ads around the edges that you probably already use an ad blocker to white out.

The net tremendously desensitizes people to the idea that specific people make stuff, and that until we're in the Star Trek economy of the future, it costs money. Add in a rich history of piracy and warez culture, and the relatively few things that cost money have been made to seem worthless as well.

I suspect mobile has only greatly sped up the process of devaluation by turning browsing for "apps" into the same experience as browsing web sites. With so many apps being overtly free - just like most sites are free - the psychological conditioning is complete.
 
Regarding the popularity of Steam games and how they are a commodity and how people are jerks and won't pay you what you think your game is worth:

v2gHdGq.png


DayZ has never been on sale for less than $25 on Steam. I think it's sold over a million copies. Not every game is DayZ. But obviously people enjoy this game and are willing to pay a significant amount of money for it. And I see plenty of indie developers scoff about this game and others like it as if it's an insult to their art.

You have to understand that you're taking a risk when you make anything creative that your audience for it may not be as large as you think it is, or the product may not be as good as you think it is, or even if it is great, some people just won't want it. You have to accept that. There is literally no other option than to whine and mope about it.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
He's not wrong though, the pricing is completely messed up. The same people who will spend hundreds upgrading their rigs won't even buy the various big retail games unless they are 50-90% off and indie darling games until they hit a buck. They are by and large an ungrateful bunch. You gotta really hit it big and make a bold claim as to why your game is worth paying full price for and seemingly only the big studios can do that.
 

Aselith

Member
Steam is great! You can sell loads of games! But only if they’re less than $10. Technically Valve don’t actually dictate the prices we charge. Actually, they do. Utterly. It’s just not talked about. In fact technically, I don’t think anyone’s allowed to talk about it.

Well this a load of shit. The market is dictating the price not Valve. They're acting like it's a conspiracy when it's simple economics.
 

Vast.

Banned
People shit on smartphones and love Steam, but they've both done equal damage to the value perception of games. At least most smartphone games are tiny simple apps, but on Steam, hardcore Indie games with actual gameplay and care and effort are being sold for pennies because of the Humble Bundle culture.

So when people ask why PC gets treated as a second rate citizen so often, think about how much the average PC gamer spends on a game compared to the average console gamer.
 

coolasj19

Why are you reading my tag instead of the title of my post?
But ultimately, indie studios still have the agency to choose how to sell their goods. You can blame Valve and bundles for all your woes, but it was your decision to sell them there. So, don't. Put them on the PS4. Set up your own store. Recoup your dev costs up-front by doing a Kickstarter. Don't let Valve push you around the same way Amazon is trying to push around content creators.
I'm ignoring the rest of your post so I can use this as a jumping off point. On that note, I think Sony is doing a spectacular job trying to stave out the "Race To The Bottom" within the PlayStation ecosystem. Unless it's a ¢99 Flash Sale
where, lets be honest, is never any more than a "Previously on PS+" clearance sale
prices never ever ever drop below 75%. Because they've held onto this for years now, $3.75 is now "the cheapest it'll ever be" for $15 games and $2.50 for $10 games. Even $40 games will only reach $40. If you want to have a lower sales price, you've gotta lower your base value and I don't think publishers are in for that too deep yet. PS+ is doing its part to de-value certain games but I think it's doing more good than harm for right now.

EDIT : This dude is super salty. Superb games are recognized and people only care about Phil Fish because he made a fantastic game.
 

Mechazawa

Member
He's not wrong though, the pricing is completely messed up. The same people who will spend hundreds upgrading their rigs won't even buy the various big retail games unless they are 50-90% off and indie darling games until they hit a buck. They are by and large an ungrateful bunch.

"ungrateful" Hilarious.

No one's going to pay full price for a game they're marginally interested in. This is what happens when there is a sea of good, quality games tugging at people from all angles.
 
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