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Harvard And UNC Sued Over Race-Based Admission Policies

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The link posted by Foxy, and also in my OP. There are a number of other factors and infleunces aside from "Poorer students need more help"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uH0vpGZJCo




I'm not implying anything. I'm saying the crux of the issue with AA isn't that it should be socioeconomic-based, it's that it negatively affects Asians, as you stated. THAT aspect should be addressed, but removing it and making aid only socioeconomic based will make things significantly worse for blacks and hispanics. There is a racism issue that is both entangled with class and separate from it, at the same time, which is why for most AA initiatives race is only a factor, not the entire basis

I will concede that point. Absolutely, race is a factor and should be a part of any affirmative action policy. Ideally, it wouldn't have to be, hence my proposition for a socioeconomically construed variation, but the sociopolitical reality necessitates it.

I hope you can understand why it's difficult for me and many other Asian Americans to support affirmative action in the way that it's currently implemented, even understanding the deleterious effects removing it would have on other people of color. It's a much more complicated issue than affirmative action: racist whites and Asians say no, blacks and Hispanics say yes! If we can implement affirmative action so that there isn't a quota against Asian enrollment, I would love to move forward with that. Of course, it's the entrenched, largely white, leadership at the elite institutions that is providing the inertia against this.

Solidarity between all people of color is important, and I think it's great we're having this dialogue, even if it's on the level of a gaming forum. : )
 
I don't think you realize that socio-economic conditions were the result of race based discrimination. Black people aren't poor because they're poor and lazy. Black people are doing so terribly compared to other races because discrimination is still very alive today. The problem is race. The consequence is minorities being shafted economically. I have no problem taking into account socio-economic circumstances but to weigh that as the primary factor ignores how we got here and doesn't necessarily solve the problem of conscious and subconscious bias that whites and many Americans tend to have against blacks.

Yes, centuries of racism and history has made it hard for black people to have the same socio-economic advantages that say, a white person has. Some have managed to overcome that problem, others have not been so fortunate. So why don't we help those that haven't been able to do so, as well as others who are in the same situation due to other circumstances and compensate for that regardless of the source/reason?
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/17/harvard-unc-admission-lawsuit_n_6174288.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000048&ir=Latino+Voices



I'll let you read the rest, since the article is fairly short. Attacking higher institutions for attempting to correct systematic issues is incredibly dumb and only shows how ignorant the "The Project on Fair Representation" (laughably ironic) is of the large issues at hand

Although, I will say they have an interesting point with


Although, it's almost null, because they fail to realize those other measures are constantly being undermined by racial issues! A school in a poor predominantly white neighborhood vs a poor school in a predominantly black (or non-"model minority") neighborhood. Yes, students from both are in the same economic tier, but which is more likely to get attention and aid? Hmm, I wonder...And let's not forget that affirmative action aids white women the most of any group


Some choice snippets of the surprisingly good comments (an internet first?):






An excellent video to watch for anyone who wants a good perspective on why AA is still needed

I'm sorry, since when did Asian Americans not become a minority anymore? so we're going to end racism against black people by having racism against asian people?
 
Yeah, I have no problem with AA benefiting primarily blacks and Hispanics...since I do think, academically, the people that need the most help are the poorest in our country... and I also do happen to know that a large chunk of our poor in this country is black and Hispanic people.

My issue is with how AA, currently implemented, discriminates against Asians. How people try to excuse it with, "well Asians aren't well rounded. They have good grades, sure, but that's not all we look for in college applicants."

Fuck that noise.

Yes, blacks and hispanics are a huge chunk of the poor in our country. Doesn't that mean that a policy based on helping the poor would help them the most? I mean, sure, some blacks and hispanics won't be helped in favor of poorer folk of other ethnicities (white, Asian, whatever), but those people are poorer and need the help more. Now, there will be some blacks/hispanics in the middle, who aren't well off but are more well off than the some non-black/hispanics that edged them out. Maybe these deserved the aid more because, despite their slightly better off economic status, the history of racism in the US affects them even more negatively in ways that socio-economic status doesn't quantify, but how do you measure that? And is this number of people affected more than the number unfairly affected by AA?
 
Yes, centuries of racism and history has made it hard for black people to have the same socio-economic advantages that say, a white person has. Some have managed to overcome that problem, others have not been so fortunate. So why don't we help those that haven't been able to do so, as well as others who are in the same situation due to other circumstances and compensate for that regardless of the source/reason?

I don't think that there's a problem considering socio-economic circumstances. I don't think that weighing that over race is the right answer.

If you look at the graph notice the poverty rates neatly line up with which races America has heavily shafted in the past and the minorities who are heavily and negatively impacted and targeted by unfair practices in primary and secondary school (blacks are found to be punished more harshly than other races for the same infractions - This American Life has a really good episode on this), unfair arrests rates (again blacks are targeted more than any other race even though we only make up 13% of the population and commit crimes at the same rate as other races) and unfair practices within the judicial system. This is all race based. That rich black guy was stopped and frisked because he was black not because whatever class he belonged to. So I guess my problem is that your solution ignores the fact that America is consistently holding back or outright attacking the black (and hispanic) community which results in a poor community. The solution is to address race based discrimination not to address the effect of race based discrimination.
 
Yeah, I have no problem with AA benefiting primarily blacks and Hispanics...since I do think, academically, the people that need the most help are the poorest in our country... and I also do happen to know that a large chunk of our poor in this country is black and Hispanic people.

My issue is with how AA, currently implemented, discriminates against Asians. How people try to excuse it with, "well Asians aren't well rounded. They have good grades, sure, but that's not all we look for in college applicants."

Fuck that noise.
AA has nothing to do with Asian discrimination. Your frame is that there are a certain amount of slots that qualified students get and blacks and Latinos come and take them from Asians?

Why is that the preferred frame, when one can easily frame it that less qualified whites get in over Asians?
 
AA has nothing to do with Asian discrimination. Your frame is that there are a certain amount of slots that qualified students get and blacks and Latinos come and take them from Asians?

Why is that the preferred frame, when one can easily frame it that less qualified whites get in over Asians?

because look at what happened to the UC campuses in California when AA was ended. asian population swelled
 
We are addressing race based discrimination.. against Asian-Americans.




There's only 5 pages in this thread, beginning with the OP.

So please read those. If anything ,feel free to read just my posts, if I'm asking too much,

Right. And thats a by product of poor implementation of AA that isn't inherent in AA. It's just racist white individuals implementing a good system poorly. No where in AA does it state that Asians need to have better test scores than Whites. And as far as I know AA positively impacts a certain group of Asians and it could be argued that it may negatively impact another.

You keep painting it as this hugely terrible thing for all Asians and that's not true.
 
I don't think that there's a problem considering socio-economic circumstances. I don't think that weighing that over race is the right answer.

If you look at the graph notice the poverty rates neatly line up with which races America has heavily shafted in the past and the minorities who are heavily and negatively impacted and targeted by unfair practices in primary and secondary school (blacks are found to be punished more harshly than other races for the same infractions - This American Life has a really good episode on this), unfair arrests rates (again blacks are targeted more than any other race even though we only make up 13% of the population and commit crimes at the same rate as other races) and unfair practices within the judicial system. This is all race based. That rich black guy was stopped and frisked because he was black not because whatever class he belonged to. So I guess my problem is that your solution ignores the fact that America is consistently holding back or outright attacking the black (and hispanic) community which results in a poor community. The solution is to address race based discrimination not to address the effect of race based discrimination.

I see where you're coming from. Thank you for describing it so well.

I do think that I hold the equivalent of white-privilege (for me personally, it is not Asian-privilege) so it's definitely hard for me to approach topics like this. You're right, I haven't really been thinking about it in terms of addressing race-based discrimination. For me, I think that at the college admission level, you have either been able to overcome life's obstacles, or you need a little help whether it's due to racism, or poverty, whatever. And that the policy should take ALL of that into account, not just race. I think intellectually it makes sense and covers the most bases.

But I also hear what you are saying and understand that there are things that only a racially-aware viewpoint can address. I'm glad that this thread has given me plenty to chew on.

Edit: Holy crap I'm a member
 
AA has nothing to do with Asian discrimination. Your frame is that there are a certain amount of slots that qualified students get and blacks and Latinos come and take them from Asians?

Why is that the preferred frame, when one can easily frame it that less qualified whites get in over Asians?

If you read the thread, you would see that it is not the "preferred frame". I've been saying the whole time that it is unfair that Asian Americans have higher admission standards compared to whites, when Asian Americans are in no way more privileged than whites. I've made it clear that I haven't been ignoring the necessity for the AA for other African Americans, Hispanic Americans and Native Americans, among others.

From 1990 to 2010, at ivy league schools the proportion of Asian American students has stayed the same at 15-20%, while the population of Asians in the US has doubled from 3% to 6%. In top schools not implementing affirmative action, the proportion of Asian students has similarly doubled in line with population growth. This is a clear indicator of a quota.

The media likes to construe the debate as "Asians vs. Black/Hispanics, who should get the spoils?" when it comes to affirmative action. The reality is that AA is being used to justify a racist quota system against Asians at top schools, while whitey once again gets all the spoils. (Sorry for putting that in this crude manner.)
 
We are addressing race based discrimination.. against Asian-Americans.




There's only 5 pages in this thread, beginning with the OP.

By the way, the OP's post is about AA and Asian discrimination.

So please read those. If anything, feel free to read just my posts, if I'm asking too much for you to read five pages of posts with lots of stats,

(Yes, this is a snarky reply, but you have obviously not read anything at all I wrote and cherrypicked your interpretation of what I said, when I clearly state otherwise.)
Blah, blah, blah. Don't give a shit if you can't answer a simple question. Why do you accept one frame over the other? If there are a total # of seats and AA leads to Asians getting less, why is the focus on Blacks and Latinos instead of the clear over sampling of non-historically discriminated whites?

AA isn't why Asians are discriminated against. Not overly complex to work through.
 
If you read the thread, you would see that it is not the "preferred frame". I've been saying the whole time that it is unfair that Asian Americans have higher admission standards compared to whites, when Asian Americans are in no way more privileged than whites. I've made it clear that I haven't been ignoring the necessity for the AA for other African Americans, Hispanic Americans and Native Americans, among others.

From 1990 to 2010, at ivy league schools the proportion of Asian American students has stayed the same at 15-20%, while the population of Asians in the US has doubled from 3% to 6%. In top schools not implementing affirmative action, the proportion of Asian students has similarly doubled in line with population growth. This is a clear indicator of a quota.

The media likes to construe the debate as "Asians vs. Black/Hispanics, who should get the spoils?" when it comes to affirmative action. The reality is that AA is being used to justify a racist quota system against Asians at top schools, while whitey once again gets all the spoils. (Sorry for putting that in this crude manner.)
Did I quote you? I read the post where I didn't quote you. Give it a try.
 
Blah, blah, blah. Don't give a shit if you can't answer a simple question. Why do you accept one frame over the other? If there are a total # of seats and AA leads to Asians getting less, why is the focus on Blacks and Latinos instead of the clear over sampling of non-historically discriminated whites?

AA isn't why Asians are discriminated against. Not overly complex to work through.

Dude, read my reply at least. And read the freaking thread before mouthing off.

edit: Wow. Stop being ignorant. Read the thread.
 

Ties

Banned
thanks backslash for the stats

like its to the point where im not even going to put down my asian heritage on my college apps anymore because i know I'm going to be held to a higher standard. im going off of my hispanic heritage instead
 
Mistakenly posting on an alt or something? Still not sure why you're talking to me as if I've said anything to you.

Because I answered your question, and because backslashbunny has been stating similar points as me. Dude, we've been saying it's unfair that ASIANS have it harder than WHITES. That's why many Asians don't like the policy. Yes, affirmative action is designed to support black and Hispanic populations, but no where in the law does it say that Asians need to get screwed. That's why we're upset.
 
Same to you.. it's only five pages of posts. This is not some 40 page thread.

Have you even been reading the replies to your earlier posts? Or are you just skipping all of it and cherry picking what you dislike/what you think I'm pushing?

But, to help you out, and to reply to your statements:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139434631&postcount=108
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139436695&postcount=123
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139436653&postcount=121

C'mon you know that's not true. I've read all of those and responded to them in some manner.

What you're showing is discrimination against asians. Not discrimination against asians caused soley by AA. Taking race into account doesn't automatically mean that asians need to have higher scores than whites. As I said it's poor implementation of good program.

The solution is to enact programs that stop bias against Asians not to end AA based on race.
 
while I can understand the discrimination against black argument, can someone really argue that hispanics have had been discriminated far more against than asians?

especially when you consider what the chinese had to go through in the 1800s and the japanese with the internment camp?
 
Backslash I've read all your links but you haven't seem to have read mine:

When affirmative action was first implemented in the early 1970s, Asian Americans benefited from it in large numbers, as did Blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, American Indians and the group that has benefited the most, White women. Since that time, Asian Americans have achieved notable successes in educational attainment, employment, and income -- so much so that Asians are frequently called the "model minority."

Students studying together � Corbis
In fact, on many university campuses around the country, Asian Americans soon became disproportionately represented. That is, it was common for 10%, 15%, or more of a university's student population to be of Asian ancestry at a time when Asians were only about 3% of the general population. This was also because the Asian American population is relatively young, so many more Asians were applying to college than before as well.

Nonetheless, many universities became alarmed at the growing Asian American student population on their campuses. So much so that once the Asian proportion of their student population reached 10%-15%, they began to reject Asian students who were clearly qualified. Soon, Asian Americans were accusing universities such as U.C. Berkeley, UCLA, Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, and Brown of imposing a quota or upper limit on their admission numbers. After several protests and investigations, these universities admitted that there were problems with these admission policies but never admitted any deliberate wrongdoing.

Soon thereafter, many conservatives and opponents of affirmative action began to argue that these Asian American students were "victims" of affirmative action, just like Whites. In other words, these Asian American students were being denied admission when other "less qualified" ethnic groups (implying Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians) were being admitted.

As many Asian American scholars note, at first this argument may sound plausible. But after careful investigation, the real issue is not that Asian students are "competing" with other racial/ethnic minority groups. Rather, the real cause of this controversy is the widespread use of admissions factors that always seem to favor Whites.

For example, many private universities use "legacy clauses" in which the children of their alumni have a big advantage in admissions, even though many of whom would not have been admitted otherwise. The problem is that legacy clauses almost always favor Whites because a generation ago, there were very few racial/ethnic minorities attending these elite schools. As research showed, the widespread use of these legacy admissions is what's responsible for the artificially low admission rates for Asian Americans. Also, in contrast to perceptions that minority students receive a disproportionate amount of financial awards from affirmative action programs, recent data show that in fact, the vast majority of merit-based and private scholarships still go to White students.

Other factors that lowered the admissions rates for Asian students included persistent stereotypes that Asian students were not "well-rounded" candidates and rarely participate in extracurricular activities. Again, national research showed that in terms of participating in sports, performing arts, academic and social clubs, and community activities, the rates for Asian students were almost identical to that of White students. The point is that in this case, Asian Americans were still the targets of discrimination and that in many cases, the real beneficiaries of this were not other racial/ethnic minorities, but the children of alumni at elite universities.

Since affirmative action programs were first implemented, many Asian Americans have achieved remarkably high levels of education, economic, and occupational attainment. This socioeconomic success has led many colleges and companies to no longer consider Asian Americans as an "underrepresented" minority group and therefore, are no longer eligible to be included in such affirmative action guidelines and programs.

Unfortunately, in doing so, many colleges and companies demonstrate that they have not learned the fundamental lesson that not all Asian Americans are the same, and that not all are successful. Specifically, many Pacific Islanders and some Southeast Asian groups (i.e., Laotian, Cambodian, Hmong, etc.) are still struggling socioeconomically, are still "underrepresented" in such institutions, and therefore should still be included in such affirmative action programs.

The question still remains, do Asian Americans still benefit from affirmative action or are they being hurt by it? Again, it all depends on the specific program and set of guidelines in question and whether or not they include Asian Americans (or which specific APA groups) as an underrepresented group. For example, recent data has shown that after residents voted to end affirmative action programs in California, Florida, and Texas, enrollments of Asian Americans in the top public universities in these states increased while conversely, the numbers of Black, Latino, and even (ironically) White students have declined, along with a decline in the number of male students.

Data like this suggests that Asian Americans benefit the most when affirmative action programs are eliminated. On the other hand, other studies show that Asian American enrollments actually declined in law schools in California, Texas, and Washington after affirmative action was ended in these states and that the real reason for instances of increasing enrollments is not the elimination of affirmative action per se, but instead, is based on eliminating simple discrimination and judging Asian American applicants equally with other applicants.
 

whillywhack

Neo Member
This is why Stanford University has become the most selective university in the country. They don't have affirmative action, nor do they accept people based on their wealth; it's completely merit-based. More schools should follow suit.
 
C'mon you know that's not true. I've read all of those and responded to them in some manner.

What you're showing is discrimination against asians. Not discrimination against asians caused soley by AA. Taking race into account doesn't automatically mean that asians need to have higher scores than whites. As I said it's poor implementation of good program.

The solution is to enact programs that stop bias against Asians not to end AA based on race.

Sure, taking race into account shouldn't result in Asians needing higher scores in whites, but with the implementation of AA that unfortunately did happen. Good intentions or not, it can't be a good program until its implementation becomes fair for everyone. That's why, for one, you should support the lawsuit. If its found that AA does discriminate against Asians and there is a change outlawing these quota type systems at elite institutions, then more Asian Americans will unequivocally come aboard to support AA, even in places like California where it's not currently implemented. That benefits everyone.

Think about it this way. Asian Americans are the fastest growing demographic in the United States, faster than Hispanic Americans even. We've doubled our population in the past twenty years. That means there's going to be more Asians striving for a largely static amount of spots, due to quotas enacted allegedly for AA. Would you support a policy that would make it harder for your kids to get into the best college they can, and become all they can be? Now, make some changes so that the implementation is fair for all, and I'm absolutely for it. I'm a fellow minority, I've lived the immigrant and minority experience and I'll obvious empathize with those who share it.
 
Because I answered your question, and because backslashbunny has been stating similar points as me. Dude, we've been saying it's unfair that ASIANS have it harder than WHITES. That's why many Asians don't like the policy. Yes, affirmative action is designed to support black and Hispanic populations, but no where in the law does it say that Asians need to get screwed. That's why we're upset.
I'd expect more discussion absent attacks on the preferential admissions standards for blacks, Latinos and Native Americans then. Why is a legal attack on AA in preference for socio economic policies the platform for your grievances. Why hitch your cart to this and not be more vocal about white over Asian selection. I see that you both are saying that's your focus, but then you're also being vocal proponents for socio-economic admission policies and not racially sensitive ones... Which brings us back to square one.
 

Shabutaro

Member
medschool2.jpg

I will say in regards to this statistic is that its important to take context into account MCAT prep is INSANELY expensive. It takes a lot of time, and for those who have to work its difficult. Not to mention that at $300 a test, not a lot of lower income people can afford to take the test 3 times to improve their score. So if we look at income levels of the applicants the education level of their parents and other factors such as college prep in high school, you'l likely see some correlation between races. I don't think its fair to penalize people who worked hard but were disadvantaged due to systematic problems. It would be interesting to see the acceptance statistics vs the average score of the demographic, (hypothetically, 60% of AA's are accepted when they have scores 1.5 standard deviations from the mean scores) and compare that with the other ethnicities.
 
Sure, taking race into account shouldn't result in Asians needing higher scores in whites, but with the implementation of AA that unfortunately did happen. Good intentions or not, it can't be a good program until its implementation becomes fair for everyone. That's why, for one, you should support the lawsuit. If its found that AA does discriminate against Asians and there is a change outlawing these quota type systems at elite institutions, then more Asian Americans will unequivocally come aboard to support AA, even in places like California where it's not currently implemented. That benefits everyone.

Think about it this way. Asian Americans are the fastest growing demographic in the United States, faster than Hispanic Americans even. We've doubled our population in the past twenty years. That means there's going to be more Asians striving for a largely static amount of spots, due to quotas enacted allegedly for AA. Would you support a policy that would make it harder for your kids to get into the best college they can, and become all they can be? Now, make some changes so that the implementation is fair for all, and I'm absolutely for it. I'm a fellow minority, I've lived the immigrant and minority experience and I'll obvious empathize with those who share it.

Read my long quote above.

@Backslashbunny

I understood what you were saying But yeah that's where the confusion comes in. I think that having caps on asian students is certainly morally and ethically wrong. I've said that from the beginning. Again I don't think primarily focusing on socio-economic factors should be the solution. I think its probably somewhere in between to be quite honest.

As the article I posted said, it does work, did work its just white people one day decided that they had enough asians. The program itself didn't decide that.
 
Oh shit I realized where the confusion must be coming from.

AA is a catch-all, at least for me, when it refers to "race-based admissions."

I'm so sorry. I totally just realized where I fucked up. My mistake.

"The Harvard lawsuit also contends that the Ivy League university specifically limits the number of Asian Americans it admits each year" is the original post.

I'm not arguing against AA by any means. I'm discussing how discrimination against Asians has led to caps on Asian American admittance into colleges in the US.

(When you search for things like SAT stats and college stats and admission stats by race, you get ALL the races.)

edit: & yes. I am sorry for the snark.



Lol.. it's because we're all the same, I'm sure.

/s

(But seriously, that's hilarious. Like only ONE person could possibly feel like Asians are discriminated against. We Asians don't bitch enough about discrimination, if such an opinion is seems like a minority.)

You can't divorce affirmative action from race based admissions though. It's intertwined. It adds to the complexity of the issue, for sure. A lot of people will feel pressured to make the judgment call: will I support a policy that is detrimental and outwardly racist against Asians, in the interest of fairness for other people of color?

For me, the answer is no, I can't support affirmative action until the quotas are removed. There shouldn't be a dichotomy between black/Hispanic prosperity and Asian American prosperity and it's disgusting that the media plays it up like that. I will absolutely advocate for other policies designed to make American a more equitable place, but not when something in its implementation is so clearly racist against me.

And yes, Asians need to be more vocal against discrimination. There's no excuse not to.
 

zoku88

Member
This is why Stanford University has become the most selective university in the country. They don't have affirmative action, nor do they accept people based on their wealth; it's completely merit-based. More schools should follow suit.
Someone should tell Stanford about that, given that they say that they do consider various aspects of an applicant's background including race.

During the mentioned supreme Court case, they joined several Universities asking to be allowed to continue looking at race.


http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/june/affirmative-action-response-062513.html
 
You can't divorce affirmative action from race based admissions though. It's intertwined. It adds to the complexity of the issue, for sure. A lot of people will feel pressured to make the judgment call: will I support a policy that is detrimental and outwardly racist against Asians, in the interest of fairness for other people of color?

For me, the answer is no, I can't support affirmative action until the quotas are removed. There shouldn't be a dichotomy between black/Hispanic prosperity and Asian American prosperity and it's disgusting that the media plays it up like that. I will absolutely advocate for other policies designed to make American a more equitable place, but not when something in its implementation is so clearly racist against me.

And yes, Asians need to be more vocal against discrimination. There's no excuse not to.
What the hell? Reading more of backslash's posts, I see that I misinterpted his/her posts, but you just basically restated what I said the framing problem was!

You have two choices. 1) rail against unfair practices against Asians to the benefit of non discriminated people or 2) complain about programs that benefit those historically discriminated against... You're choosing #2 while trying to vocally explain that you're not.
 
accounts for this difference.

Right there... socioeconomical differences seem to really factor into this entire thing.
And I agree. I just don't think it should be the primary focus because it ignores how blacks and hispanics became and are kept poor. The entire US system from top to bottom is set up to impact blacks and hispanics negatively. To ignore that is what I don't like. 1 in 3 blacks are going to go to prison in their lifetime. Yet we do not commit crime at disproportionate rates. I could go on and on with studies and terrifyingly unfair stats that specifically show ingrained subconscious/conscious racism specifically against blacks and hispanics. Not poor people. Not because theyre socio-economically disadvantaged, but because of skin color. It only makes sense to me to combat this by focusing on race and considering socio-economic circumstances.
 
I'd expect more discussion absent attacks on the preferential admissions standards for blacks, Latinos and Native Americans then. Why is a legal attack on AA in preference for socio economic policies the platform for your grievances. Why hitch your cart to this and not be more vocal about white over Asian selection. I see that you both are saying that's your focus, but then you're also being vocal proponents for socio-economic admission policies and not racially sensitive ones... Which brings us back to square one.

It's a tough call man. The matter of the fact is that AA was used as justification to enact quota systems against Asian enrollment. That's why in states like California where AA is not implemented, many Asians won't support implementing the policy.

There's merit for socioeconomically based admission policies as well. Many recent Asian immigrant populations are thriving in the US. But descendants of a lot of Asian Americans from earlier eras, i.e. Chinese railroad workers and gold miners, haven't been able to achieve economic prosperity due to systemic oppression and racism. They would benefit from a socioeconomic based policy, but don't from a race based one.
 
It's a tough call man. The matter of the fact is that AA was used as justification to enact quota systems against Asian enrollment. That's why in states like California where AA is not implemented, many Asians won't support implementing the policy.

There's merit for socioeconomically based admission policies as well. Many recent Asian immigrant populations are thriving in the US. But descendants of a lot of Asian Americans from earlier eras, i.e. Chinese railroad workers and gold miners, haven't been able to achieve economic prosperity due to systemic oppression and racism. They would benefit from a socioeconomic based policy, but don't from a race based one.

The white poor outnumber the black poor 3 to 1. Again we only make up 13% of the population. Which brings us back to square one.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I was on the fence of affirmative action based on race until recently. Socioeconomic factors always made sense.

Then I heard something that completely changed my perspective.

In the US if not the world at large, you cannot separate race and social class.

If you think you can, you have not talked to minorities enough. Name and appearance burden you throughout your academic career, regardless of socioeconomic factors.

We need affirmative action. If not, we will drive further inequality of opportunity.

Fyi this also applies to gender.

I speak as an MIT graduate and current PhD student heavily involved in these issues. Especially in STEM.
 
The white poor outnumber the black poor 3 to 1. Again we only make up 13% of the population. Which brings us back to square one.
It's there any reason both can't be considered? Both the racial group and socioeconomic status of an applicant could be viewed within the context of each other. I mean, I suppose they already are taken into consideration, but I guess it's not implemented effectively.
 
I was on the fence of affirmative action based on race until recently. Socioeconomic factors always made sense.

Then I heard something that completely changed my perspective.

In the US if not the world at large, you cannot separate race and social class.

If you think you can, you have not talked to minorities enough. Name and appearance burden you throughout your academic career, regardless of socioeconomic factors.

We need affirmative action. If not, we will drive further inequality of opportunity.
Yup.
It's there any reason both can't be considered? Both the racial group and socioeconomic status of an applicant could be viewed within the context of each other.

And I've said this many times in this thread. Many universities already do this.
 
The white poor outnumber the black poor 3 to 1. Again we only make up 13% of the population. Which brings us back to square one.

No policy is going to be able to help everyone. Even more so, no policy is going to be able to please everyone.

Affirmative action, in the end, is just a band aid. If we're really going to make any changes in this country, we have to start earlier than college admissions or job hiring. Poor inner city schools need more funding. Schools need to be made safe havens for learning. Good teachers need to be better rewarded. Education has to be emphasized as the path for upward mobility, whether its vocational training or STEM. Policies need to support small businesses.
 

kirblar

Member
No policy is going to be able to help everyone. Even more so, no policy is going to be able to please everyone.

Affirmative action, in the end, is just a band aid. If we're really going to make any changes in this country, we have to start earlier than college admissions or job hiring. Poor inner city schools need more funding. Schools need to be made safe havens for learning. Good teachers need to be better rewarded. Education has to be emphasized as the path for upward mobility, whether its vocational training or STEM. Policies need to support small businesses.
Local funding of public schools is the big elephant in the room.
 
Affirmative action, in the end, is just a band aid. If we're really going to make any changes in this country, we have to start earlier than college admissions or job hiring. Poor inner city schools need more funding. Schools need to be made safe havens for learning. Good teachers need to be better rewarded. Education has to be emphasized as the path for upward mobility, whether its vocational training or STEM. Policies need to support small businesses.
Isn't that already one of the goals of affirmative action? I know it sometimes also involves community outreach and creating opportunities for minorities that wouldn't have had them (or even known of them) otherwise, as well as providing the resources they'd need to get closer to an equal footing (e.g. in terms of access). (Not that that's happening to a remotely adequate degree.)
 
No policy is going to be able to help everyone. Even more so, no policy is going to be able to please everyone.

Affirmative action, in the end, is just a band aid. If we're really going to make any changes in this country, we have to start earlier than college admissions or job hiring. Poor inner city schools need more funding. Schools need to be made safe havens for learning. Good teachers need to be better rewarded. Education has to be emphasized as the path for upward mobility, whether its vocational training or STEM. Policies need to support small businesses.
I agree. I just think socio-economic AA is not a bandaid at all. Its a kiss on the wound in hopes that it will heal. It's an answer in the wrong direction. It creates MORE problems than it solves.

My solution is a lot neater. Considering both race and socio-economic status while implementing programs to discourage asian discrimination based on SAT scores or student population.

Your solution kind of says F you to every other race and only "helps" a certain group of Asians ...
 
I believe In this term Asians also include south asian people from india, pakistan, bangladesh, etc. So east asians arent the only ones being discriminated against.

I was surprised to hear that Asians face wage discrimination in the tech world as well considering how well represented they are in the industry.

It'd be more unfair to let all of them in. Might actually help with the Tiger Mom phenomenon.

While i dont agree with these tiger moms, i dont think its fair for kids who often have no say to work hard and get great grades just to have nothing to show for it.
 

Log4Girlz

Member
I've seen comments like "its racist". Is it really? I mean, let's assume it is. That is but a drop of racism compared to the institutional, societal racism many minorities face from the day they are born. Boy, even a drop of it tastes so vile, so bitter, it is so caustic that the privileged class cannot tolerate even that one drop.
 

antipode

Member
I do not believe Asian-Americans are actually discriminated against in college admissions.

The argument in the lawsuit - and in this thread - seems to miss one key point: America is incredibly segregated by where people live. Schools do not like to have all their students come from a few school districts, and high-income school districts are severely over-represented in college applications. That is the only rule you need to explain why it is harder for Asian-Americans to get in, without discrimination for being an Asian-American.

Take one example from New Jersey:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-students-in-low-income-districts-struggle-on-sats-1.666227
At a time when helping students become “college ready” is a mantra for New Jersey education officials, a startling share in many poor and moderate-income districts failed to meet the score deemed by the College Board to predict probable success in college — 1,550 points out of a possible 2,400.

That benchmark has been in the spotlight since Camden Schools Superintendent Paymon Rouhanifard used it last month to say it hit him like a “kick in the stomach” to learn that only three students in Camden tested as college-ready.
...
In the high-performing, affluent district of Ridgewood, 93 percent of last year’s seniors took the SAT, and 81 percent hit the college-ready benchmark.

Camden is 48% African-American and 2% Asian-American. Ridgewood is 1% African-American and 13% Asian. In a given year, it's safe to say Harvard will admit multiple students from Ridgewood - but perhaps can't find a single qualified student from Camden.

When you apply as an Asian-American from Ridgewood instead of Camden, your odds are lower of being accepted into Harvard - because there are 10 other Asian-Americans kids in that same school district as qualified as you. It wasn't your "Asianness" that put you in a competitive situation, it was because you live in a well-off neighborhood.
 
I've always had mixed feelings about AA. On the one hand, no one should be judged on their race, but giving a less qualified person a pass also seems like a poor solution ( I wouldn't want someone with a C in physics designing bridges). I'm with those that stated that the problem stems from earlier education. My parents worked very hard and paid a tuition so that I could attended the local catholic high school. That tuition was half of what each public school student in my area received.The local public hs had some of the worst sat scores in state, but had the money for a football team and field (we had neither), new books and better computers. The public school students would always go to my school and start brawls to the point where we got out of school well before them to avoid confrontations. I feel that for things to change, the students also need to change. Just throwing money at the problem or rewarding lesser performance is never going to fully solve the issue. The culture of embracing toughness and ignorance over education should be the first step towards equality.
 
I do not believe Asian-Americans are actually discriminated against in college admissions.

The argument in the lawsuit - and in this thread - seems to miss one key point: America is incredibly segregated by where people live. Schools do not like to have all their students come from a few school districts, and high-income school districts are severely over-represented in college applications. That is the only rule you need to explain why it is harder for Asian-Americans to get in, without discrimination for being an Asian-American.

Take one example from New Jersey:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-students-in-low-income-districts-struggle-on-sats-1.666227


Camden is 48% African-American and 2% Asian-American. Ridgewood is 1% African-American and 13% Asian. In a given year, it's safe to say Harvard will admit multiple students from Ridgewood - but perhaps can't find a single qualified student from Camden.

When you apply as an Asian-American from Ridgewood instead of Camden, your odds are lower of being accepted into Harvard - because there are 10 other Asian-Americans kids in that same school district as qualified as you. It wasn't your "Asianness" that put you in a competitive situation, it was because you live in a well-off neighborhood.

If the student is qualified, then they are qualified. They should have a chance to go to a school that is appropriate for their level of academic achievement. Who cares if Ridgewood is 13% Asian? I went to a school that was 30% Asian. Asians shouldn't be solely fighting against other Asians for an allocated number of spots. That's called a quota and that's racist.

The obvious and more concerning problem at hand is, well, Camden. How do you fix that situation? Affirmative action isn't going to do anything to fix that. Funding into the public schools, public safety, support for small businesses, social services, etc may be able to.
 
I do not believe Asian-Americans are actually discriminated against in college admissions.

The argument in the lawsuit - and in this thread - seems to miss one key point: America is incredibly segregated by where people live. Schools do not like to have all their students come from a few school districts, and high-income school districts are severely over-represented in college applications. That is the only rule you need to explain why it is harder for Asian-Americans to get in, without discrimination for being an Asian-American.

Take one example from New Jersey:
http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-students-in-low-income-districts-struggle-on-sats-1.666227


Camden is 48% African-American and 2% Asian-American. Ridgewood is 1% African-American and 13% Asian. In a given year, it's safe to say Harvard will admit multiple students from Ridgewood - but perhaps can't find a single qualified student from Camden.

When you apply as an Asian-American from Ridgewood instead of Camden, your odds are lower of being accepted into Harvard - because there are 10 other Asian-Americans kids in that same school district as qualified as you. It wasn't your "Asianness" that put you in a competitive situation, it was because you live in a well-off neighborhood.
Even if we did consider this to be true (which I don't necessarily agree with) Asians do have to have higher SAT scores than their white counterparts.
 
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