Ken Masters
Banned
Lol, everyone who realistically applies has a 4.0GPA, that's nothing special, it's everything else that separates the applicants
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Harvard And UNC Sued Over Race-Based Admission Policies
- Thread starter BeatResetsTheWorld
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Lol, everyone who realistically applies has a 4.0GPA, that's nothing special, it's everything else that separates the applicants
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
I'm fine with AA coming into play so long as socioeconomic is in general looked at first. In theory it should be based on merit, and then randomized if need be. That's not current reality though.
The one thing that does get me though is the idea that colleges should be going below a certain standard because of shitty educational policies in the chain before you get to college. To a certain degree I don't think it should be on colleges to fix the fact that there is terrible elementary, middle, and high school.
The one thing that does get me though is the idea that colleges should be going below a certain standard because of shitty educational policies in the chain before you get to college. To a certain degree I don't think it should be on colleges to fix the fact that there is terrible elementary, middle, and high school.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
You'd actually be surprised at how well people in shitty upbringings can do when placed in a fostering and intellectual environment. Lots of schools have programs to help them get acclimated, and a lot of these students end up doing just as well as those who came from much better K-12 systems.
Not to mention, diversity itself, not just in race, but in life experiences has been shown to have major positive effects on institutions and workplaces. No one wants an echo chamber of just rich kids, with all similar backgrounds, upbringings and life experiences
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
None of that means colleges should be the ones to fixes primary schooling though.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Who says they are? And even if some are, why is that a problem? Does a poor student who did badly in HS negatively affect a college's prestige or ability to educate it's students? Does it impact the "smarter" students ability to learn? No college will solely admit the best of the best. It's not a good idea, it's not feasibly (there are always a surplus of academically qualified students), and it's not a very representative student body. That will negatively affect students, if anything
victreeb3l
Member
Thats not cool.
Technosteve
Banned
Mom and Daddy make a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ donation
I always felt the best way to make education fair is to normalize the amount of tax dollars going to schools. It's often based on taxes of the area. So expensive areas obviously have more money than poor areas. Less money means less resources and worse teachers. Instead, every student in public school should be funded the same amount. And college should be basing aid more on economics, not race.
Good point but UNC is a public university.
This was bound to happen after the UT decision last year.
Not sure that is such a good idea as ultimately diversity is an important part of life and education.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Going by this logic then you wouldn't care if businesses discriminate either for hiring or customers.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
But time and again studies have shown that there is inherent bias in both hiring and admissions against African Americans, even with equal credentials. How do you overcome this bias without policy changes?
If you're talking about Harvard and MIT, you're looking across the board at candidates with nearly perfect GPAs, 10 extracurricular activities, 3 sports, 2 instruments, and top 5% SAT scores. It's a game of musical chairs and no matter how "fair" you make it, there's going to some valedictorian who has to "settle" for Stanford. Only 2000 out of 35k applicants got in last year, that's a lot of Dear John letters.
Edit 2: I think a lot of people think of admission quotas as only helping disenfranchised blacks and Hispanics, but in cases like Harvard or Berkeley, it has been argued that it keeps the Asians population from becoming a majority, period.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
It'd be more unfair to let all of them in. Might actually help with the Tiger Mom phenomenon.
CapNBritain
Member
I believe that the Tiger Mom phenomenon is linked to the perception that Asians (particularly well-off Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indian, and some others I may have forgotten, which is not ALL Asians) are in direct competition with other Asians and need to compete to survive the College Hunger Games. My younger sister went through so much more crap than I had to.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Oh, there are too many Asians at Cal schools? Boo hoo. It's called a meritocracy. Asian American families emphasize education, we strive hard and we score high on academic metrics. And no, we are not programmed robots. We have individual interests and passions, we are empathetic and communicate well with people from all different backgrounds, and we have strong leadership capabilities as well. But no, we don't contribute to the "diversity" of an ivy league school as much as your average prep school lacrosse playing legacy jock.
If you want to see what happens when you have "affirmative action" at elite colleges, look at the Ivy League. Asian American enrollment peaked in the 1990s, at 20%, and has since declined to 15% on average at all Ivy League schools. This is DESPITE the fact that the Asian American population has DOUBLED over the past twenty years. That's called a quota system, my friends.
I would support affirmative action if it actually did what it espouses to do. But in actuality, it helps people who don't really need the help as much (rich Hispanic Americans and African Americans, recent African immigrants, Caucasian females) and allows for the establishment of racist Asian quotas. Most of all, it doesn't help the poor and embattled African American and Hispanic American communities that need it. There needs to be a huge amount of policy change enacted and money spent to turn the education systems in those communities around starting at the pre-K level, not at the college admissions level.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Yea, no. Many immigrant families are high striving, regardless of race or background (see: success of many recent African immigrants). The fact that there is a systemic discrimination against high achievers of a certain race or ethnicity is a RACIST policy.
And it's not going to help with the Tiger Mom phenomenon. If academics isn't going to cut it to get admissions to elite colleges, you're just going to get those families to push their children to succeed in whatever capacity it takes. So more extracurricular superstars and Jeremy Lins.
The big issue with AA is that it doesn't help all minorities. It helps those at the upper margins in the disadvantaged groups but does nothing for the rest. There are broad systemic issues that need to be addressed, but I don't think it really addresses them in a meaningful way and is instead an "easy" thing to do that exists mainly for people to think that progress is being made.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Sorry buddy, but I think you're part of the problem. The fact is, is that there is a TON of racism against Asian Americans and we don't have the same opportunities as whites do, although our situation may be better than other ethnic groups. Have you heard of the Bamboo ceiling? The lack of Asian American executives at Fortune 500 companies? Racist anti-Asian quotas in higher education? Or, on another note, the fact that Asian children are the most bullied growing up and have the highest suicide rates in the country? We can (and should) have solidarity with all peoples of color, but that doesn't mean we should give up our own opportunities and ignore the problems facing our communities.
Personally, I would not want to get into a school because of my race rather than because of my credentials. Yes, it's not as simple a calculation as that, but I don't want my race even as a factor in the decision making process. I'm not exactly Clarence Thomas on this issue though.
Is this in the context of college admissions? or generally speaking?
michaelius
Banned
Are there no university entrance exams in USA ?
Byakuya769
Member
Doesn't sound like an issue with AA, sounds like an issue with our socio-economic policy broadly.
AA's problem is that people conflate it with a supposed cure all for all social stratas of blacks, native americans and latinos where it is merely one tool in what should be a toolkit of policy prescriptions.
You are talking about Harvard though. They probably get more overqualified applicants than any other University on the planet. It really is just a game of musical chairs and quite frankly luck.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Asian-GAF represent : ).
I'm with you. My high school was around 30% Asian American as well, and we were everywhere in school leadership. I was Vice President of the Student Council, myself. I agree with you, the issue is plain and simple. From academics to the corporate world, Asians have to work harder to get less. There is racism at play, although of a different type than the ones other ethnic groups face. The only way this will get addressed is if we continue to be more vocal as a socio-political entity in this country. The outcry against affirmative action in California recently, for example, was a good step.
LUFTRAUSER
Banned
Now, I'm white, and I think that the white people who think that ending affirmative action will let their precious little snowflake get in to Harvard are hilarious.
From what I understand, the most negatively affected by this policy are the Asian students. It seems to me that their achievements are often marginalized; people just expect them to do well and never consider the work that must go into it, and Asians are apparently often passed up in college accept in favor of other ethnicity.
I specifically remember speaking to an Asian student complaining about this back in High School; she applied as a white student to colleges instead, as she had a more "white-sounding" name. It was pretty eye-opening for me, as before that I had never really though about how so-called positive stereotypes could be very negative.
From what I understand, the most negatively affected by this policy are the Asian students. It seems to me that their achievements are often marginalized; people just expect them to do well and never consider the work that must go into it, and Asians are apparently often passed up in college accept in favor of other ethnicity.
I specifically remember speaking to an Asian student complaining about this back in High School; she applied as a white student to colleges instead, as she had a more "white-sounding" name. It was pretty eye-opening for me, as before that I had never really though about how so-called positive stereotypes could be very negative.
Femmeworth
Banned
Goddamn. O_O
Outside of white men, which group (race, gender, etc) does this not apply to?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, we don't really talk about it except in situations like this. I remember when I was 14 I wrote a really cringeworthy paper about affirmative action being unfair to white guys for my English class and thankfully my mother read it on the counter the morning it was due and made me re-write it at the last minute into something about dolphins. I'm really glad I didn't turn it in
HisImperialMajesty
Member
None. But why, when GPA and other qualifications are equal, do Asian students have to score a 1460 on the SAT compared to 1320 for a white applicant? Because "affirmative action", that's why. While I support affirmative action in concept, in implementation it allows whites to hold on to their privileged positions at the top of the academic and corporate food chain, admit a marginally larger amount of African American and Hispanic American minorities while setting up a quota system to limit the admissions for the more "threatening" minority, i.e. Asian Americans. Insidious, isn't it?
Jewish Americans suffered the same kind of quota system in the 1920's. Now, they're largely seen as "white". In fact, despite being 2% of the US population, they take 25% of the spots at Ivy League schools. Asian Americans, despite being 6% of the population, only get 15% of the spots.
You completely misread my post if you think I was arguing the dominance of Asian Americans in California public schools was bad.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
"... They rally behind Jennifer Gratz as the supposed victim of reverse discrimination because the year she was rejected there were about 85 students of color who got into [The University of] Michigan despite having lower scores and lower grades ... but they say nothing about the 1400 white students, let me repeat, 1400 white students with lower scores and lower grades than Jennifer Gratz who got in. You see, less qualified white people are no problem, but less qualified people of color ... my goodness ... we can't have that.
They say nothing about the study from 6 weeks ago which found that for every one student of color that receives any benefit from affirmative action in college there are at least two whites, for every person of color, two whites who also don't meet the requirements but got in because daddy wrote a check or mama made a phone call or someone pulled some strings and got them in -- But affirmative action for rich white people is never a problem ..."
CapNBritain
Member
I too am part of the lurker group known as Asian-GAF.
I remember joining clubs back in high school just to add them onto my admission forms. Heck I even joined the swimming team (one of the best decisions of my life) because I thought I needed more stuff to stand out. And this over a decade ago. It has only gotten crazier in California since then.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Wait, don't these stats show that despite the perceived discrimination, they aren't actually being negatively affected? It's only in comparison to jewish (and white) people...and that doesn't seem like it's because of AA, it seems more of a systemic bias/racism against Asians because of assumptions that they're capable of much more or should be to be seen as equal
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
And I think the poster was saying that's generally true for every minority. Minorities need to perform better than their white counterpart to be seen as equal. That's not limited to asians.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...omys-troubling-double-standard-for-black-men/
Generally speaking- the "you don't get real diversity, you just get upper class black kids alongside the upper class white/asian ones" issue is reflective of the general issue regardless of implementation.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Haha, I did, and I apologize. I totally agree with the rest of your post as well. I went to an Ivy myself and there are tons of students who got in for esoteric sports like squash. How does proficiency in a sport like that make you a more well rounded applicant? It just means you were rich and privileged enough to have the free time and access to training to excel in that sport. Ridiculous.
It does when elite schools without AA have much higher percentage of asians.
Its like saying if you subtract 20 percent of ratings for all Nintendo game doesn't hurt Nintendo because its still higher than the average for all Video Games.
Pretty much this. Asian-American here, and it's an open secret that in terms of getting into college, we are flat out discriminated against. But, because we're successful in spite of said discrimination, no one gives a shit.
The reason AA ends up working out terribly is that everyone uses it as an excuse to not do anything else. "You can get into college everywhere else, so we'll shaft you the rest of the way up!" It also ends up creating less diverse mindsets in a school environment; as now Harvard can go after all the rich black kids / hispanic kids and go "see! we're diverse! we care! now leave us alone as we hoard our money."
People want metrics they can point at to make themselves feel better. Not actual progress.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
That's definitely true. My original point however, is that the implementation of affirmative action is used to solidify the privilege of white Americans at the top. It doesn't really help the African and Hispanic American communities that need it (only the small amount of already more privileged ones), while actively allowing for a quota system to restrict the numbers of upwardly mobile Asian Americans. Affirmative action shouldn't be about Asian vs. African/Hispanic admissions, it should be about socioeconomically disadvantaged vs the socioeconomically privileged.
No worries. Squash? Such bullshit. If you want your kid to guarantee a spot in an Ivy, and you know the kid will be brilliant, push them to some random white-as-driven-snow sport and get them to masterclass level. Get that kid on a rowing machine pronto. Crew is nothing more than affirmative action for moderately smart, upper class dudebros. No one cares about crew except people who row the boat and their sweater-tied-around-the-neck parents... and admissions offices.
Legacy and these sorts of wealth-by-proxy extracurriculars are garbage perpetuations of wealth and power for people with money (largely whites, but money first and foremost).
Sadly, from what I recall reading, things like the 4-H and JROTC and Future Farmers of America -- clubs that tend to skew towards a more white, conservative, but not wealthy demographic -- can be detriments on college admissions. Somehow those are bad but being an all-county Oboist is a real measure of diversity. Fuckouttahere.
Holistic admissions are totally necessary yet absolutely mind boggling.
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
But isn't this assuming there is some "true" value that is being subtracted from? There isn't such a thing as objective admissions, because we don't live in a society where people are judged objectively. Just because Asians are a much higher percentage of school A doesn't necessarily mean they should be a similar percentage at school B, does it?
I guess my question is, how do you gauge how much it's affecting them when there's no real way to find out what the "true" racial breakdowns of schools should be? Should it just be a reflection of the population? If so, they would be massively screwed over, along with white, while blacks and hispanics would greatly benefit.
Even if we tried to come up with such an "objective measure", let's say meritocracy (hypothetically), there are always way more qualified people who apply to schools. At some point it breaks down into subjective assessments
CapNBritain
Member
I went to UCRejects for college.My SAT score was 2100, my GPA was 3.5 (this is probably what killed me in admissions though), and I was National Merit, in MUN, speech & debate, orchestra, band, honor society. No sports for me.
All my nonAsian friends at UCR were like WTF are you doing here.. and all my Asian friends (there) were like me. We either missed a high GPA or a high SAT score. People say you can "make up" for one or the other (purely in an academic sense)... yeah, no. Not for Asians.
Never heard the UCRejects term. I'm sure it's a great place though!
Should have joined the swim team (my advice for everyone)
Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. Although it seems to focus on how black men have to work harder in the workplace than in academic admissions. It's very interesting that getting a college education has such a greater effect on black men vs white men in getting hired.
I believe that when people say that Asians have to work harder to be equal, it is different than other minorities (at least under the current topic of AA). Maybe the rubric is an Asian's 1600 == White's 1500 == Black's 1400? I'm sure AA isn't actually this stupid though.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
No, what that number means is that the entrenched groups at elite institutions, i.e. WASPs and Jewish Americans, are manipulating admissions to favor people from their own ethnic groups while restricting admissions to other upwardly mobile groups, i.e. Asian Americans.
Look at the Cal system. It's more than 40% Asian American, based solely on merit via examination scores. Now, when you have a so called "holistic" process, like in the Ivy Leagues, Asian American admissions are capped at 15%. Are Jewish Americans and WASPs just so much more well rounded than Asian students? I highly doubt it.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
No I understood what they were saying. That's not how affirmative action works.
Having seen college admissions processes first hand - this is way closer to the truth than anyone would like to admit. It's basically a racial percentage modifier to test scores / GPA; and a tie-breaker when needed.
HisImperialMajesty
Member
Generally speaking, of course extending to college admissions. I have a rich African American friend who had the way paved for him to the Ivy League and now med school, despite having a GPA and test scores way below my own.
The funny thing? He's only a quarter black. He looks white. But he's actively recruited as a minority student.
How many inner city and poor immigrant blacks and Hispanics do you think will get the same treatment?
BeatResetsTheWorld
Banned
Maybe it was because he was rich, or for a variety of other factors? You only mention GPA and test scores when there are a variety of other non-racial factors at play
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