LukasTaves
Member
So is when you upscale. This is just use another method of creating the extra pixels. It's not ever sending to display a natively rendered 1080p image.
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Killzone: Shadow Fall Multiplayer Runs at 960x1080 vertically interlaced
- Thread starter RoboPlato
- Start date
So is when you upscale. This is just use another method of creating the extra pixels. It's not ever sending to display a natively rendered 1080p image.
Colbert
Banned
I tend to agree. As Guerilla Games is a 100% sub of SCE I would assume Sony has some share of responsibility here ... The better way would have been to be honest, we are at the very beginning of the generation so nobody expects wonders from the developers.
People
Did notice thought It was bad aa at work but also Gg did something smarter than simple interlacing . So actually something between scaling and true native 1080p rendering .... Think goonker4life mentioning encoding stuff is onto something especially now that a second person has chipped in supporting him . I'm sleepy but if this topic is going on tomorrow I'll open up a topic discussing that .
Oppo
Member
No kidding. Sort of sad that it just becomes a talking point.
Terbinator
Member
It was noticed before, but when the dev is saying it's native 1080p and the hardware gulf over its nearest rival suggests it is the case then to keep arguing to point makes you look like sore.
Go back and look at the MP screen shots - they look like arse comparatively.
Caayn
Member
Some massive spinning going on in here. The MP is not 1080p. Saying KZ:SF MP is 1080p is the same as saying that Ryse is 1080p, both are untrue.
I'm amazed that it took this long for people to find out the resolution of the MP and that the different AA isn't the only one to blame for the blurry image in MP.
I'm amazed that it took this long for people to find out the resolution of the MP and that the different AA isn't the only one to blame for the blurry image in MP.
You mean just like this?
no, as i said, the image isn't upscaled. you count pixels, the image that is displayed is 1080, right? it's just shared data between 2 frame. if the output on screen was 960x1080 stretched to fit the screen...then it would be the same as ryse.
Interesting, thanks. I still don't get how this works regarding resolution, though?
For video encoding, I-Frames are inserted during scene changes and P-Frames are the highest quality frames. B-Frames are the lowest quality, about 10/1 compression ratio, and substituted over P-Frames by the encoder where it shouldn't be noticeable. But they're not lower resolultion, just allocated much less bitrate and heavily compressed.
The benefits and disadvantages would seem to be similar to those of single-sample analytical AA techniques, just even more extreme (that's why I'd call it "half-sample analytical AA" if I had to somehow fit it into existing terminology).
That is:
- large situational variance in IQ (quite good in some situations, very bad in others)
- issues and artifacts with sub-pixel-sized structures
- prone to temporal instability/aliasing
- texture sharpness is negatively affected
+ even cheaper (significantly so) than single-sample analytical AA
+ decent static geometry edge quality
Dictator93
Member
Ryse is also using a temporal anti aliasing to inform its pixel shading. Your argument is lame.
Oh I see.
Guess that it's easier to pull this off on a console, where the analog stick turning means most of the time there isn't a massive change on the screen from frame to frame.
Terbinator
Member
Could the GG solution be something MS could explore with ESRAM?
Ludicrous Speed
Banned
This is pretty damning. Guerrilla needs to make a statement. I wonder if people will lose their jobs over this.
So they do that for their 900p buffer and upscale ? And this does it for it's wierd 1080 half between p and I ? I really wish someone who has a super good understanding of aliasing and video encoding chips in with a good explanation of everything . But I guess we can kind of all agree it's not "true" 1080p but it's not 1080i flipped version either
Yeah don't think the job loss is happening
but I'm too sleepy to sense sarcasm LukasTaves
Member
And you could render the previous frame as a texture to re-use again. That's what PGR and Forza (on 360) do to reflect everything (even other cars) in hood view.
Ryse final image is 1920x1080. The hardware scaler on the console is not the one bringing a 900p image to 1080p, it's done internally by the game.
Terbinator
Member
Why? The only people who really care about this stuff is fanboys and those of us with an interest in tech and rendering techniques. No one was short-changed because of their solution and no one (lol) needs sacking.
BrainZEROX
Member
Come on now... Why would somebody get fired over this?
LukasTaves
Member
I'd be willing to bet there's motion blur making it look worse. Here's another screen captured by the same person:
Notice that you can still see the artifacts from the temporal reprojection, but the image as a whole seems sharper--except for the motion blur on the very near rock faces.
I'd also point out that most people (not necessarily you) don't really understand how "bad" a frame can look divorced from its context. Many modern techniques damage the clarity of the frame to improve the overall look in motion. For example, here's a frame out of the other "best looking console game", Ryse:
Tons of motion blur rushing in different directions, heavy film grain, motion blur artifacts all around the character...this frame is a mess. But the sequence it's from looks quite good.
I don't agree the Ryse shot is a mess at all. It highlights the incredible motion blur this game has quite perfectly. There are only some minor artifacts there.
I'm ok with PR hype men getting fired or otherwise reprimanded for lying.
KnockOneOff
Banned
My Forza 5 multiplayer runs really well at 1080p
#shouldhavegotXboxOne #JustSaying
#shouldhavegotXboxOne #JustSaying
It's not video. It's not updating 1920x1080 pixels per frame. There is a clear reduction in IQ for multiplayer.
Terbinator
Member
Even as a XB1 owner, if the hypothetical 960i Forza 5 article popped up now it would be delish.
LeeRoyBrown
Banned
LOL, sooooooooogood.gif
Neogaf gets duped.
1080p 4 Lyfe!
Neogaf gets duped.
1080p 4 Lyfe!
LukasTaves
Member
According to Crytek it's not, it was about bandwidth. Their lighting tech uses more fetches to the gbuffer than "regular" deferred rendered games, and a 1080p buffer would have increased that probably to levels not even the esram could sustain.
They also said they are using full precision buffers, because they wanted the highest quality lighting and post process effects, and they did have to manage how to fit everything on the esram.
Since Ryse (and Cryengine in general) is doing some lighting tricks that no other engine does currently, I'd say it's a valid trade off.
boredandlazy
Member
Just like COD. Oh, wait...
#Justsaying
BrainZEROX
Member
That would be 1920i with "smart" de-interlacing. As already mentioned, horizontal 960i would interlace 480 columns of pixels to produce a 960 pixel wide picture. We are still looking at a 1920 pixel wide picture.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Guerrilla just shot themselves in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Dutch culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Holland, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the Dutch public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase their next (RPG) game, nor will they purchase Killzone Shadowfall. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Guerrilla has alienated an entire market with their 1080p wizardry.
Guerrilla, publicly apologize and cancel Killzone Shadowfall or you can kiss your business goodbye.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about Dutch culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw someone over in Holland, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the Dutch public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to purchase their next (RPG) game, nor will they purchase Killzone Shadowfall. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Guerrilla has alienated an entire market with their 1080p wizardry.
Guerrilla, publicly apologize and cancel Killzone Shadowfall or you can kiss your business goodbye.
boredandlazy
Member
Was waiting for this. Still ambivalent.
R3TRODYCE
Member
Never gets old lol
3rdamention
Member
You can call it slimy, or dirty or whatever. I am sorry you are so heartbroken. I think the dirty part is the fact that 3 months later, not one of these gaming "professionals" noticed this, the Digital Foundry article didn't mention this, nobody verified the resolution, they just took what the devs said and ran with it.
Terbinator
Member
#dead
Dictator93
Member
I have yet to find the quote, but Ryse uses Temporal information and a custom scaling option intertwined with the analytical AA to scale from 900 to 1080p.
Basically, their scaler and their AA (temporal and PPAA) work together.
PR getting fired for lying, haha
I don't want anyone fired; it's not that big of a deal. But there's a way to hype products without lying (see Xbox*). They flat out said the multiplayer was 1080p and lied about it.
I think Sony said native 1080p when in fact it isn't
I don't think its slimy. Its misleading, but I don't think that's such a huge crime in the world of advertising. I mean, that's what its mostly based off of! lol
Really, looking at all the games from the previous generation that weren't actually 1280x720(there are FAR more than most people realize), nobody noticed and it wasn't a big deal and so it shouldn't be here, either.
Really, looking at all the games from the previous generation that weren't actually 1280x720(there are FAR more than most people realize), nobody noticed and it wasn't a big deal and so it shouldn't be here, either.
PR getting fired for lying, haha
They'd be putting this shit on their resume if they understood what it means.
gregor7777
Banned
So no one noticed this difference in resolution? That's very interesting. It would seem the general console gaming public doesn't have the eye for it.
Dictator93
Member
But people did notice it. The multiplayer was generally thought to be a blurry mess by lots of players.
Or possibly doesn't care about what is a laughably minor issue that has absolutely no impact on their ability to enjoy the game they're playing or not.