I personally thought the idea of Cersei having consensual sex next to her recently deceased son's corpse made zero sense. Honestly, the version on the show is far more believable.
Complete nonsense. Considering all the context of the circumstances (Cersei being Cersei, it was a reunion and they desperately missed each others, etc.), it made sense, whereas this rape doesn't.
i personally think people are blowing the jaime "rape" thing way out of proportion, sure its a bit different than the book but the scene was always disturbing. Making cersei slightly more reluctant isn't a terrible change, and as others have noted shes returning the kisses throughout - and eventually gives in
people are acting like he bludgeons her unconscious and takes her lifeless body, i mean cmon
Jesus fucking christ.... she isn't "slightly more reluctant", she's plainly not consenting. Are you suggesting it's only "rape rape" if it's done Gregor Clegane style? "Eventually gives in" is surrender, and surrender is not consent.
If somebody is "giving in" to sex, they are absolutely not consenting. They're letting it happen, so they don't get hurt, and so it ends quickly.
Agreed. Once again: surrender is not consent.
I had forgotten that, I guess that squashes that small theory that Cersei is pregnant after this (I saw some speculation about this, mainly due to a few parts where her dresses were no longer fitting).
lol, her dresses no longer fit because she's putting on weight from drinking all that wine and getting older. Never once thought she was pregnant.
It really does bother me that they think Jaime raped her in the Unsullied thread and that GRRM actually wrote the scene like that. Curse you, D&D!
Completely agreed. Please, Cornballer, can't we say
something about that? Just that? It almost feels like slander towards GRRM at this point.
We are neglecting the worst book change: Tywin said Orys was king when he was in fact Hand and not a Targ.
Yeah that was weird. There was no Orys Targaryen at all, or none that I recall. There's a shitload of canon Targaryen kings they could have used as example but they made one up randomly? Oh well.
I don't recall a Orys as Hand, though. There's Orys Baratheon, a friend of Aegon the Conqueror who founded House Baratheon, but he wasn't really "Hand", just Aegon's friend who took Storm's End. He also wasn't murdered by his brother. I think they made up that story for the show. Or maybe Tywin did. Because the closest king that can be called "the just" would probably be Daeron the Good, or Aegon V the Unlikely, and they weren't murdered (they actually had a decently long reign) and don't serve Tywin's narrative to manipulate Tommen. xD
I think some of you need to take a step back and consider what effect this event had on the audience.
Go ask someone who has never read a single page in the books. Ask them what happened in last night's episode.
I would wager that Ygritte head-shotting that little boy's father or Sandor Clegane stealing from the kindly old man are more often cited.
You would have lost that wager, easily. The rape scene is what everyone is talking about.
... I really don't think the creators of the show intended for Jaime Lannister to humiliate or defile his sister. It was more a "Fuck me already you stupid bitch." moment.
...Wow.
Did they fail in conveying that? Absolutely. But you have to be pretty dense if you equate the show's portrayal of attempted rape in episode 1 (the tavern scene) with what Jaime and Cersei were doing.
Once again, this ugly mentality rears its head. It's only "rape rape" if done in the brutal Gregor Clegane style. Ugh.
It's probably worth noting that, had they gone the route of the books, and made it rape that she consents to midway through the act, that the ensuing shitstorm might have been even more ridiculous. Could you imagine the ensuing Tumblr storm if they had a woman start getting raped and then consent / give up in the middle of it to the "good" guy?
Except that's not how it happens in the book. It's never rape in the book.
Yep. For a lot of people it knee caps his entire arc and labels him as a rapist and nothing else. It puts him in a group with a lot of the show's real monsters like The Mountain and Vargo Hoat.
Yup. One poster even said s/he likes Locke now, because of him cutting off that asshole Jaime's hand. Sigh.
Look, agree to disagree.
I remember hearing D&D once talking about how they love the complexity of Martin's characters.
They gave an example of a real life war hero - we're talking about a real man that actually put his life in great peril on the field of battle in order to save others - and then when he returned home from war, he beat his wife.
How are people capable of such great deeds and such terrible things all at once? Because people can be very complicated.
D&D are missing the point, then. You don't make a character "complex" by simply balancing good acts with (horribly and irredeemably) evil acts. That's a sign of a bad writer. A good writer knows that a complex, morally grey person will be
consistent and will have believable and consistent motivations. GRRM is exceptionally good at writing such characters, but D&D obviously aren't. Jaime isn't complex because he rescues maidens from bear pits but also defenestrates children; he's complex because of the motivations behind those acts.
Not to mention, rape is pretty much the most obvious
moral event horizon. I guess you could argue people still liked Khal Drogo, but it happened with characters the viewers barely knew, not established characters on a redemption act.
Also, it's funny you should cite that example, because Jaime himself thinks about such people in his POV in A Storm of Swords, only the other way around (soldiers who do horrible things and then go home and become a family man) when he sees Steelshanks:
Steelshanks Walton commanded Jaime’s escort; blunt, brusque, brutal, at heart a simple soldier. Jaime had served with his sort all his life. Men like Walton would kill at their lord’s command, rape when their blood was up after battle, and plunder wherever they could, but once the war was done they would go back to their homes, trade their spears for hoes, wed their neighbors’ daughters, and raise a pack of squalling children.
