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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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HyruleGuardian
Member
I understand how it seems like much more of a rape compared to the books.
But I think it's clear that both the books and the show had the same intention - to start out with Jaime forcefully instigating sex with Cersei, and then for Cersei to be accepting of it in the end.
In the book, this is made far more clear.
In the show, mistakes were made with how the scene was depicted... they made Cersei's acceptance too subtle for most of the audience, so it plays as rape.
I really think we should all just accept what the intention of the scene was... We should all accept that there was somewhat of a failure of execution in the direction of a scene to make it clear that it became consensual.
Aren't those things we can all agree on? If so, I don't even know what we're supposed to be arguing about.
But I think it's clear that both the books and the show had the same intention - to start out with Jaime forcefully instigating sex with Cersei, and then for Cersei to be accepting of it in the end.
In the book, this is made far more clear.
In the show, mistakes were made with how the scene was depicted... they made Cersei's acceptance too subtle for most of the audience, so it plays as rape.
I really think we should all just accept what the intention of the scene was... We should all accept that there was somewhat of a failure of execution in the direction of a scene to make it clear that it became consensual.
Aren't those things we can all agree on? If so, I don't even know what we're supposed to be arguing about.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Oh good, we're still discussing the scene where a rape didn't occur?
That Tywin/Tommen scene preceeding it was soooo good.
So depressing that this is Charles Dance's last season.
That Tywin/Tommen scene preceeding it was soooo good.
So depressing that this is Charles Dance's last season.
The Artful Dodger
Member
BrokenEchelon
Banned
What cause would Cersei have to get offended at incestual intercourse with her brother all of a sudden? None.
What cause would Cersei have to get offended at incestual intercourse with her brother near her dead son's corpse? A lot.
I wonder what she was protesting, the act, or the place the act was about the occur in. Oh wait, I know which one it is, because I've been paying attention to the character progression.
It wasn't rape.
Keep this in mind: I'm not a fan of redemption for people who commit certain crimes. Trying to kill a child is one of them. I never cheered for Jaime in all five of the books despite his change in behavior later on. I'm not cheering for him now, either.
It is defnitely rape on the tv show, but it was definitely not rape in the books.
GRRM just issued a statement saying that the show's depiction of that scene is divergent from the books.
AV Club did a nice writeup on this http://www.avclub.com/article/rape-...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default
GRRM basically says it was an unnecessary change without throwing them under the bus, and not how it was originally supposed to play off as.
No surprise, this is probably the first time I've ever had my faith in D&D shaken severely. I could put up with Stannis being Melisandre's simp because he had grand plans to come but kneecapping Jaime's redemption is incoherent with his storyline.
No surprise, this is probably the first time I've ever had my faith in D&D shaken severely. I could put up with Stannis being Melisandre's simp because he had grand plans to come but kneecapping Jaime's redemption is incoherent with his storyline.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
So what's everyone's army status like atm?
Daenery:
6000+2000 Unsullied
1000 Mercenaries
Two cities worth of freed slaves
Three dragons
Stannnis:
Fuck all, potentially 10,000 mercenaries
Greyjoy:
?????
Lannister-Tyrell-Dorne-alliance:
160,000+ assorted soldiers
Wildlings:
100,000 wildlings/cannibals/giants
Daenery:
6000+2000 Unsullied
1000 Mercenaries
Two cities worth of freed slaves
Three dragons
Stannnis:
Fuck all, potentially 10,000 mercenaries
Greyjoy:
?????
Lannister-Tyrell-Dorne-alliance:
160,000+ assorted soldiers
Wildlings:
100,000 wildlings/cannibals/giants
Dabookerman
Member
Each and every single one of them dudes I bet. I'm glad this discussion is happening, it highlights how fucked some people are, since I have seen comments actually cheering Jaime on.
I re-read the Drogo/Dany scene, and the book makes great emphasis to show how tender and patient Drogo was. There's no suggestion of any sort of force being used.
The same cause she had when she refused him in the season premiere.
Electric_ Cthulhu
Member
Controversy aside, how can one scene ruin a whole season? Even if it changes Jaime's character (and that remains to be seen): It wouldn't be the first time that something like that happened on the show. The books and the show are two entirely different things. Everbody should know that by now.
It was a misstep, but the show went through worse things.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Oh, you mean the scene where says "You think I'd let the <whatever>[Pycelle] put his hands on me"?
Implying that she wouldn't stand for that shit if someone tried it on her.
Also, she said "Not now", she didn't refuse him, she postponed him. See how paying attention changes the situation? She was angry at him for leaving her. Meaning the entire time he left her, she was still pining for him.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Just got to the scene.
Jaime defenders are missin' the point. It's Rape.
The point it serves, my best guess (they could've done it other ways), is to make Cersei more sympathetic, I guess? Idk, I guess grieving widows aren't sympathetic enough?
The scene before and otherwise are fantastic with Tywin counseling Tommen and Arya's quick thinking.
That's all I'm going to say about it. I feel it's been discussed enough.
Jaime defenders are missin' the point. It's Rape.
The point it serves, my best guess (they could've done it other ways), is to make Cersei more sympathetic, I guess? Idk, I guess grieving widows aren't sympathetic enough?
The scene before and otherwise are fantastic with Tywin counseling Tommen and Arya's quick thinking.
That's all I'm going to say about it. I feel it's been discussed enough.
If Cersei objected to having sex in that location because of her son's dead corpse and Jaime did it anyway then it was rape. Cersei did not want to have sex there and repeatedly said no.
So if Jaime kept pushing during S4E1 when Cersei said no then it wouldn't be rape either? That's what made this scene worse. Two episodes ago he wanted to have sex and she said no and nothing happened but this time he didn't take no for an answer.
I don't know that this is the case. The show runners characterize it as Jaime forcing himself on Cersei and it being a horrifying scene in the Inside the Episode, and the director of the episode calls it a rape in a Hollywood Reporter interview, contrary to another comment he made in a seperate interview that it eventually became consensual. I think the intent of the scene on the show is that this is Jaime forcing himself on an unwilling Cersei. I think it's also likely that Cersei was mixed about it, some parts of her wanted to have sex with him, but certainly not there at that moment. There is some legitimacy to the idea that Cersei was saying no to the circumstance and the location if the act, and not to the idea of having sex with Jaime in general (which was my initial read on the scene), but that also doesn't mean a rape didn't occur. She's pretty clearly resisting, whatever the reason for that resistance is is kind of besides the point.
There isn't really any doubt that it was portrayed as rape and that this was the intent of the scene in the show. Whether this is a valid thing for characterization is largely what the discussion in this thread has been for the bulk of the day, it seems. Not whether it was rape or not. I don't think you can look at the comments of the show runners and not arrive to the conclusion that a sexual assault occurs and that this was the intent.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Rewatching the scene now.
She starts kissing him, after she leans into him for comfort.
She recoils and looks at Joff, getting offended that she's having thoughts of getting it on next to her son's dead body.
She says, "Jaime, not HERE, please".
She doesn't say "Jaime, don't do this to me, don't fuck me, don't whatever"
They fall to the floor, they kiss, SHE IS KISSING HIM.
She goes from saying "stop it" to saying "it's not right".
I agree that it should have been more consensual for people unfamiliar with the scene from the books, but I honestly can't separate the two. Maybe that's why my opinion on this differs.
Besides, how do you explain her not calling in the guards, screaming out, or fighting back? This is Cersei we're talking about. She's a viper, she's evil, she has people killed for far less, and ruins people's lives out of spite. She's a terrible person capable of terrible cruelty but she lets this just happen?
Had he thrown her to the ground in her chambers and started having sex with her, and she was crying out "no" or "stop", then it's a pretty one-dimensional context, there's no other reasoning to explain it away since the only thing of any importance in that room would have been his actions, but that's completely different in the room in 4x03, where there is another incredibly important context at play.
She starts kissing him, after she leans into him for comfort.
She recoils and looks at Joff, getting offended that she's having thoughts of getting it on next to her son's dead body.
She says, "Jaime, not HERE, please".
She doesn't say "Jaime, don't do this to me, don't fuck me, don't whatever"
They fall to the floor, they kiss, SHE IS KISSING HIM.
She goes from saying "stop it" to saying "it's not right".
I agree that it should have been more consensual for people unfamiliar with the scene from the books, but I honestly can't separate the two. Maybe that's why my opinion on this differs.
Besides, how do you explain her not calling in the guards, screaming out, or fighting back? This is Cersei we're talking about. She's a viper, she's evil, she has people killed for far less, and ruins people's lives out of spite. She's a terrible person capable of terrible cruelty but she lets this just happen?
Had he thrown her to the ground in her chambers and started having sex with her, and she was crying out "no" or "stop", then it's a pretty one-dimensional context, there's no other reasoning to explain it away since the only thing of any importance in that room would have been his actions, but that's completely different in the room in 4x03, where there is another incredibly important context at play.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, I'm not sure why people thought Jamie was on a path towards redemption.
A pretty large percentage of the show watchers didn't care for Jamie before his rape, due to him having pushed Bran out of a window, killed his own squire, and whined & talked about his daddy all the way back to King's Landing.
A pretty large percentage of the show watchers didn't care for Jamie before his rape, due to him having pushed Bran out of a window, killed his own squire, and whined & talked about his daddy all the way back to King's Landing.
The Artful Dodger
Member
It's based on his storyline in the book. Also his explanation of the slaying of Aerys, his personality softening due to his hand loss, his concern with Brienne and his oath to Cat...etc.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Sure, but this thread isn't really about the books - it's about the show.
It can be fun to compare the book to the show, but they are two wildly different beasts - it's foolish to apply something from one to the other.
Was he on a redemption path in the show?
That's debatable.
The Artful Dodger
Member
He was on a path to be more sympathetic and likeable. That's really not debatable.
He was. There was nothing in it for himself to go back and save Brienne. The Jaime that only cares about himself and his love for Cersei wouldn't give a shit about Brienne.
You can put up as many strawmen as you want, Season 3 was all about Jaime being humbled and changing from that experience. If you think all viewers still think he's the asshole who pushed Bran out the window you're very wrong
Yes. And this scene puts a wrinkle in that progression, which pretty clearly seems the intent. Many seem to be of the opinion that this wrinkle shouldn't have occurred, but I personally think it is an interesting route to take the character to conflict the feelings viewers have towards him.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Yeah, I disagree about that.
He was shown to attempt to be honorable from season 1 when he wanted to fight Ned in a 1-on-1 battle and punished the soldier who intervened, and didn't attempt to kill him afterwards despite it having been in line with Cersei's wishes.
He saved Brienne because she saved him, which is in line with the part of his personality which is honorable.
Him saving Brienne was always in line with his character, not an action brought on by the challenges and hardships he had to endure.
Now that he has reached the bottom after being so completely rejected by his one love which he has endured so much for, a radical change in his personality would be more appropriate and realistic.
I completely disagree with the Ned fight. He wanted to fight him 1-on-1 because he wanted to prove he was better than him. This goes back to the pilot.
The problem is that this wrinkle also completely changes the dynamic between Jaime and Cersei. I don't know how they are going to handle tsome of the scenes that happen later on.
I see how it can change the dynamic of the relationship, but how is that bad?
<gets letter from Cersei who's in prison>
"That bitch gave it up to everybody while I was away and forced me to rape her? Fuck her, let her rot in jail"
<rips up letter>
That's sounds about right for this show.
Yeah I don't think it is, because in the grand scheme of things it isn't going to change much except for our perception of Jaime for the time being. This does nothing to change the overall direction or story of the series, and it potentially makes some things in coming seasons make more sense (Cersei in book 4). All the stuff that needs to happen can still happen.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Yeah, I'm not cool with the way the show did that scene either. In the books it was fucked up but for completely different reasons. In this it screws with the nature of Jaime and Cersei's relationship, and his growth as a character.
As several folks have already said, Jaime for all his dickish behavior was never down with rape.
As several folks have already said, Jaime for all his dickish behavior was never down with rape.
CambriaRising
Member
On a show with infanticide, no less.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The rest of the forum is this way ---------->
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I wonder if we'll ever see Ice Spiders.
I guess zombie horses are cheaper budget wise, but it would be awesome to see some IS.
I guess zombie horses are cheaper budget wise, but it would be awesome to see some IS.
The show runners and the director seem to disagree on what the intent was (and it's possible D&D actively subverted the director's intent in editing) so I don't think we can say much there. But even if we could agree on the fact that they intended this as consensual, then we should probably be having a big discussion about how bad they are at their job, because holy shit. It's their job to communicate their story effectively, and if they can't get down something as simple as a character saying yes versus a character saying no, then they have serious problems.
This logic is pretty sick, dude. Denials of consent don't count if the denial is only due to location? She said no. Regardless of why she said no, she said no. I mean what's the line here? If he wants to have sex with her in public and just forces himself on her in the street is it ok because she totally would've said yes if they were in the bedroom?
HyruleGuardian
Member
I was in on the conversation. I was one of the people making the argument that Jaime seemingly raping Cersei does not by any means ruin his character arc, and doesn't strike me as being totally out of character for Jaime.
As I've been saying, in the court of law, as it played out, it was definitely rape. But this isn't the court of law. I've been saying from the beginning that I thought it seemed like Cersei wasn't 100% against what Jaime was doing (kissing Jaime, wrapping her legs around him, etc.)
But the more I think about it, the more I think it was simply an error of execution in that I believe they intended it to come across to the viewer by the end that Cersei was into it, but it simply doesn't come across this way to most people.
So that's why I say it was a failure of execution.
I believe that the intention of the writing was much more similar to how it was in the books than how the scene actually played out to the audience.
I just realized that three different kings died on Jaime's watch as a Kingsguard. One of them by his own hand. Not exactly a stellar job record.
They should hang one of those workplace safety signs that reads "IT HAS BEEN <NUMBER> DAYS SINCE THE LAST REGICIDE" over the entrance to the Kingsguard clubhouse.
They should hang one of those workplace safety signs that reads "IT HAS BEEN <NUMBER> DAYS SINCE THE LAST REGICIDE" over the entrance to the Kingsguard clubhouse.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Well these were the guys who failed to establish that Jaime and Cersei were brother and sister in the original pilot.
No I know all that and was in strong agreement with you on all those points, I'm just not sure I agree on what their intent was. I'm sure we'll have interviews with them in the coming days since this has become such a hot topic and that will become more clear, anyways.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
lol. Well, in the books he wasn't around for the last two ones. XD
Eh? One of Jaime's first line, if not his very first, was "as your brother, I feel it's my duty to tell you that you worry too much" (paraphrased but the "as your brother" line was there). But I agree with the sentiment with regards to the rape though, that's a huge, huge fail.
HyruleGuardian
Member
Why does it require us making a blanket statement such as "Wow they are SOOOOO bad at their jobs?"
I think they are great at their jobs.
But between D&D, and Alex Graves, there was simply a failure in this particular scene.
They're humans. People make mistakes in judgment. Execution is not always perfect.
Overall they do a great job. But I believe they simply botched this scene. It happens. But from all the information I have gathered, it seems clear to me that the scene was intended to be much more similar to how it comes across in the books.
Actually I didn't think about it that way until I read your comment. He saved Brienne from getting raped so I would imagine he would be against it. Then again he is a man who pushed a child out a window. I'm starting to think he only saved himself when he killed the mad king. Saving the rest of kings landing was probably just a bonus to him.
Oh is it? How clever of you. You'll forgive me if I tire of reading the pissing and moaning of doomsayers at NeoGAF of Thrones going on about about character assassination and other such absurdities when they can't separate the show from the source material that it is being adapted from.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
If you think that people have a problem with the scene merely because it's different from the books... I don't know what the fuck to tell you. But in any case, you're coming across as a thread whiner, just FYI.
WTF? No.
The Artful Dodger
Member
Are New-Daario critics satisfied with this Daario now?
He's got that Swagger
He's got that Swagger
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Not the pilot we saw, but the original pilot before most of it was reshot. There are some interviews out there where they talk about showing it to some friends who came away very confused.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Why would Jaime himself view it as an act of rape?
He would assume that she was into it/rationalize to himself that he deserved it after everything he had gone through. Rapists very rarely consider themselves to be rapists in real life, whilst still professing to be against rape. On top of that, Westerosi society is about as advanced as Medieval Europe when it comes to sexual & women views - what they saw as rape was pretty much exclusively the "stranger in the middle of the night"-kind of rape.
Solves the problem of him empathizing with Brienne earlier. He might also have developed some feelings for her at the time.
Old Dario would have been even swagger in this scene with that good ol' smug face of his.
Straight to DVDario is here to stay though, so I'm doing my best to forgot the old version.
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