You don't seriously believe you have to be gay in order to support representation for them, right?
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Nintendo on Gay Marriage and Tomodachi Life
- Thread starter Nothing1016
- Start date
You know, it's not too far-flung to think that homosexual relations would affect a rating in order to make it more adult.
This essentially goes back to arguments against gay adoption and such. Ideally it wouldn't affect the rating of a game any differently than straight relations would, but in America it most definitely would up the rating.
If we find evidence of that actually being true, then we'd have to take that up with the ESRB.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I was going to join in this discussion and put my 2 cents in but I think people on here have everything I have to say covered. The amount of intolerance and I'm-straight-so-it's-okay-stop-making-everything-about-gays in this thread is really disappointing, though.
jim-jam bongs
Member
What the fuck are you on about? How is this in any way relevant to whether you can present your avatar as being gay?
Which means America is fucking stupid, but hey we already have plenty of evidence of that I guess.
I'd say it's both.
I think they feel, and may be right, that their actual audience does involve such parents.
And given that most of the heads of Nintendo are... older and yes Japaneses, that if they're getting word of this controversy it's probably making them uncomfortable, not active hatred but a "People don't do such things" attitude. I feel this is very much an outside context problem for Nintendo, they're likely to turtle and hope the strange confusing thing goes away.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Is there any actual examples of that though? I mean, has a game ever been purposely up rated just because of the relationship content?
sonikokaruto
Banned
I don't see the problem or the faults with them not adding something like that.
From the programming POV, its a fucking nightmare in algorithms. Its not a switch you turn on or off.
From the programming POV, its a fucking nightmare in algorithms. Its not a switch you turn on or off.
Necromanti
Member
How many children's toys are there where sexual orientation would be an issue to begin with (as in the case of Tomodachi Life), though? I can't think of any that would need to be made LGBT inclusive because they don't involve relationships like this game clearly does.
EDIT: Of course now would be the time you get banned for concern trolling. It's something I am unable to think of a good answer for.
Dolls can be imagined to have sex, too, and you're rather naive/obtuse if you think kids under 13 don't imagine that sort of thing when they play with their dolls.
Also, it's not like the Sims has graphic sex, anyway.
...You haven't clarified a thing. What does it being for teenagers have to do with the inclusion of gay relationships?
Having gay characters shouldn't affect an ESRB rating any more than a straight relationship.
I don't know, nor do I know which games I would look for to come to any clear conclusion. I just feel that it is extremely plausible and worth looking into if anyone has the time.
What are you bringing up sex for? What does that have to do with gay representation?
Can people stop use The Sims as proof of anything. The two games are fundamentally different. You have total control over your Sims. Your Mii will do whatever they want. Relationship are decide behind the scene.
Also, all Sims are technically Bi. Gender only accounts for pregnancy, what clothes you can wear and whether you are masculine or feminine. On that note The Sims is not a good example since there is no Transgender option and genders are binary.
Yes EA is somewhat good on the sexuality side of the equation, but I don't think they are on the gender side. Which Nintendo seem to be.
Edit: Just to add I'm all for add the option to the game.
Also, all Sims are technically Bi. Gender only accounts for pregnancy, what clothes you can wear and whether you are masculine or feminine. On that note The Sims is not a good example since there is no Transgender option and genders are binary.
Yes EA is somewhat good on the sexuality side of the equation, but I don't think they are on the gender side. Which Nintendo seem to be.
Edit: Just to add I'm all for add the option to the game.
deltatheta
Member
It definitely shouldn't, but it's not clear that it doesn't. We talked about this in the Miiquality thread.
Night Angel
Member
Well that's fucking offensive. Thanks, bro. Makes me feel good, being American and all. Fuck off.
I hope Nintendo does allow the option, but I definitely see why they gave a non-answer like they did. LGBTQ relationships are heavily politicized right now (not that they should be!), and avoiding the debate entirely seems to be the wisest business decision. Hopefully people will become more accepting of LGBTQ relationships as time goes on and this won't be an issue at all. (Yes, I understand that Nintendo taking a stand here could get us closer to that point. However, that is not a burden I expect Nintendo to take for themselves.)
Ignoring the whole what if any fuss it would cause if same sex relationships were in the game, doesn't the whole say Tomodachi Life works make all this very tricky anyway?
Isn't it autonomous and you just watch the Mii's interact and do things with no input? I don't think it even asks you questions or opinions on things, you just watch them get on with it. So there is no way of gauging if the player's Mii should be gay or not. Or any of the other ones in the game.
They'd have to add a sexuality slider in the Mii creator for the Mii's in the game to act accordingly. That would be very out of place and as it's unnecessary for the vast majority of games it won't happen.
So without being able to establish the sexuality of individual Mii's you'd just have to have everyone as bisexual. Which would be interesting, and make it 'no big deal', but then not necessarily any more representative for the player.
It's not really an easy thing for Nintendo to 'fix' even if try wanted to.
Isn't it autonomous and you just watch the Mii's interact and do things with no input? I don't think it even asks you questions or opinions on things, you just watch them get on with it. So there is no way of gauging if the player's Mii should be gay or not. Or any of the other ones in the game.
They'd have to add a sexuality slider in the Mii creator for the Mii's in the game to act accordingly. That would be very out of place and as it's unnecessary for the vast majority of games it won't happen.
So without being able to establish the sexuality of individual Mii's you'd just have to have everyone as bisexual. Which would be interesting, and make it 'no big deal', but then not necessarily any more representative for the player.
It's not really an easy thing for Nintendo to 'fix' even if try wanted to.
Why including the option to have same-sex relationships is a LGBT content? If so, only including heterosexual relationship is considered straight content? Why not think of it as giving the option to choose a sexual orientation as is it in real life? Why excluding and option when there are people (their sexual orientation) whom will be rejected in doing so? Scratch that, why limiting options that impact negativily in the range of possible relationship form the pov of gameplay?
Doing so more than the non-answer given from Nintendo regarding the issue, it is a very telling stance.
Nothing1016
Member
I will be honest here. As a straight male in support of the LGBT community. I have committed the same act as the bolded. When Nintendo announced the game fro the Americas, the last thing on my mind was if my character could be homosexual for obvious reasons. I find this way of thinking is part of the problem as well even if I committed the same act. It will take more then just the LGBT community to see results, Nintendo will also needs to see heterosexuals embrace the gay community as well. So I could definitely see them completely neglecting the LGBT community as well which is some poor oversight.
Bony Manifesto
Member
Oh I see! The Sims skews slightly older, but I don't think there's a huge difference in what it's trying to do, and its rating has absolutely nothing to do with the homosexuality in it. I'm confident that they'd both get exactly the same ratings if the Sims only had straight options and Tomodachi had gay ones. It would be a pretty major scandal if it turned out the ESRB's policy was to judge homosexual content more harshly than heterosexual stuff.
There's never really been an overtly gay child's toy to my knowledge, just as there's never really been an overtly heterosexual one outside of Barbie (which has always taken heat for pushing various damaging ideals on impressionable young minds). Toys can do whatever the kid playing with them wants them to do.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Hey guess where I live? Starts with U and ends with SA. And I don't care what the best course of action from a financial perspective is, there was a time when refusing service to anyone not white was considered to be the best course of action for businesses but that didn't make it right then and that doesn't make it right now.
Someone in other thread said that a game don't need to depict something just because it was the truth (for the comments on depicting rape in Star Citizen if I'm not mistaken). I agree with that. I don't think it's really necessary to go out of their way to implement gay marriages on the game that originally didn't had these.
Of course, it would be nice to have the choice though, but they don't have the obligation of doing it. And if it ends not having them implemented, just don't buy the game and ask for the implementation on the next one.
Of course, it would be nice to have the choice though, but they don't have the obligation of doing it. And if it ends not having them implemented, just don't buy the game and ask for the implementation on the next one.
I think the point Shinta is trying to make is that no other company makes games or toys that are targeted at/marketed to children that includes LGBT themes, and therefore we are holding Nintendo to a standard we have for no other toy company.
The obvious question being, why don't we hold them to that standard. The less obvious question being, who are "we" in this context.
The obvious question being, why don't we hold them to that standard. The less obvious question being, who are "we" in this context.
My issue here is, what if the game didn't allow you have a dark skin tone, or be a female? Would it still be "the right decision" for Nintendo to not take a stand?
Amazeballs
Member
The limitations to Animal Crossing are understandable since character creation is a series of questions. Unless they find some elegant way of determining the player's skin color through its questionnaire, the team will have to redo the entire opening sequence to write in more inclusive options. The game gets around this somewhat with the Mii makeup options.
Is the gay movement a thing in Japan? I can imagine the dev team for Tomodachi glossing over it simply because it's relevant to them on a cultural level. At this point it may be too late to do anything about it and Trinen is simply providing damage control. I don't have much experience with programming, but it may be the that routine for relationships is so deeply coded that any alterations would break the game. The purported glitch where transferred Miis could married did break the game's save files. If I recall correctly the Sims 3 had a similar issue that made it impossible for modders to include more relationship options such as polyamory.
Is the gay movement a thing in Japan? I can imagine the dev team for Tomodachi glossing over it simply because it's relevant to them on a cultural level. At this point it may be too late to do anything about it and Trinen is simply providing damage control. I don't have much experience with programming, but it may be the that routine for relationships is so deeply coded that any alterations would break the game. The purported glitch where transferred Miis could married did break the game's save files. If I recall correctly the Sims 3 had a similar issue that made it impossible for modders to include more relationship options such as polyamory.
jim-jam bongs
Member
What are "LGBT themes"?! Some people are hetero, some people aren't. There is no "theme" here other than recognising the reality of the human experience.
Nothing1016
Member
I think thats exactly what he was saying. The point he misses though is that this is a video game forum, so naturally we are going to target video games companies.
Fair enough, but Tomodachi Life has been around since the DS and was made for the Japanese market. My wife (Japanese) has been playing the game since it was first released on DS ... the target market is young Japanese teen girls and women. I mean really, I don't think the game is going to translate to western cultures very well, but I hope I'm wrong about that and it sells.
Point it, I'm pretty sure, really sure, they didn't design this game with foreign markets in mind. And in Japan, same-sex marriage is something that gets discussed, but I honestly don't see legal same-sex marriage happening there for some time. Nintendo played it safe, if you want to look at it that way, but the thought of same-sex marriage in this game probably never occurred to them. If the game had originally been designed with foreign release in mind (which, I admit, is something I'm just assuming against) the issue might have been given some consideration. But in their home market, where the game is huge ever since the DS, I think it would have gone very badly if Nintendo had integrated same-sex marriage into the game. Ironically, if anything Japan is more accepting of homosexuality than any western culture from what I've seen. They just have very inelastic definitions (so far) when it comes to social relationships. They still have a lot of work to do just on gender equality (not like we don't).
As for my "right of centre" views on some issues, I'll own up to that. Generally, I don't believe in spending money you don't have. If a society wants liberal social welfare programs, then it has to pay for it. No deficits for welfare. (Notice I didn't say no welfare) That puts me at much at odds with Republicans as it does with Democrats, since one side can't control its spending and the other side doesn't want to pay for anything. I support the 2nd amendment. I also support same-sex marriage, and ending marijuana prohibition. I don't fit into any particular cubbyhole, let alone one side or the other of the big ideological fence.
Also, you said, "I mean, at least a few things have to be about gay marriage."
And I said, "Not everything has to be about gay marriage."
I don't see the inconsistency here.
.
Night Angel
Member
Morally? Hell no. I never implied that Nintendo was doing the right thing from a moral perspective. My post was with regard to business (which was obvious). Not sure how your post is even relevant to what I said. :/
I meant, and I should have been clearer, that I would not EXPECT Nintendo to take on the issue. I would like them to, but I am looking at it from their perspective. I imagine the first products that were inclusive to POCs and women back in their days faced considerable hardship for their inclusiveness. I applaud them, just as I would applaud Nintendo. But to have the EXPECTATION that they would do it is, I think, too much to ask of a toy company in the current political climate (at least in America).
To preempt character attacks: socially liberal, fiscally conservative.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Nintendo lives and dies on its family-friendly image, anyone hoping for or expecting them to include same sex marriage options (beyond what is apparently an exploit) in one of their games is in for disappointment, and that includes the Miiquality movement. Would it be neat and progressive and all that good stuff? Yeah. Would it land them in a world of bad media attention that they really don't need? Also yeah. Blame the current state of society for that one, not Nintendo.
What exactly is an LGBT toy? What "theme" would you put on a toy to make it appeal to the LGBT community?
You don't. Why? because they're not some different kind of human. They like everything straight people like.
I really don't like the guilty by omission argument. Nintendo was not invalidating other races by not allowing us to change the skin tone in Animal Crossing. The faux news that they patched out gay relationship really conflated this whole issue, and I think Nintendo tried to tread it as delicately as possible.
It sucks we live in a world were capitalism is a driving force over people's well beings, but trying to force someone to do what you want for personal views isn't good, no matter the cause. The guy who started #Miiquality is on the right track, with starting the conversation, but Nintendo shouldn't be expected to change anything, nor do they need to. If we have a healthy public conversation on the issue, the next time they're designing a game like this, the inclusion of gay marriage wouldn't even be up for debate, because everyone will know where everyone stands, and they can put in the option based on the game, not to fulfill a checklist.
It sucks we live in a world were capitalism is a driving force over people's well beings, but trying to force someone to do what you want for personal views isn't good, no matter the cause. The guy who started #Miiquality is on the right track, with starting the conversation, but Nintendo shouldn't be expected to change anything, nor do they need to. If we have a healthy public conversation on the issue, the next time they're designing a game like this, the inclusion of gay marriage wouldn't even be up for debate, because everyone will know where everyone stands, and they can put in the option based on the game, not to fulfill a checklist.
Necromanti
Member
Start with listing the toys that exclude LGBT children from playing with them so we can get started on that.
Nope I'm going to blame Nintendo for what they do and society for what it does. Thanks though!
sonikokaruto
Banned
And no one gives a fuck about the programmers.
deltatheta
Member
The ESRB doesn't directly say that homosexual content will trigger a T rating, but take a look at this page.
The ESRB doesn't say which content discriptors trigger what ratings, but a good question to ask is why are they differentiating between sex and sexuality there? Why doesn't every game that depicts a heterosexual relationship get a "Sexual themes" descriptor? Isn't showing a guy who has a wife or girlfriend a depiction of sexuality?
I think that this is definitely something that journalists should be asking the ESRB about.
By the way, The Sims 1 didn't have any sex in it. Woohoo was added in Sims 2. (If I remember correctly, to be fair, it did have flirting and making out.)
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Honestly, do we ever? It seems really weird to bring up programmers into this argument. When people are talking about things they want in a game no ones ever like "OH THINK OF THE PROGRAMMERS!!!"
I'm a programmer myself but come on.
Oh yeah, just like the MPAA. People don't really seem to care that much.
I'm a programmer and a somewhat selfish one at that, so yeah of course I do. I just don't find your point justifiable. Is it harder? Yes, sure.
Sims 1 did have sex.
This isn't really fair because nobody is preventing LGBT children from playing anything.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
It's too late for this game, but hopefully if this game sells well here and Nintendo decides to make a sequel for it the concerns of the LGBT community can be adapted more properly on the next game.
Okay, that was my fault, I'm always in favor of precise language over common parlance and shouldn't have used the latter there. But Google the phrase "LGBT themes" and you'll find it's fairly common usage for anything involving homosexual, trans or other none cisgendered individuals.
And if you want to talk about "recognising the reality of the human experience," they're going to need to do a lot more than than just adding homosexual relationships.
Nothing1016
Member
Yep. This is probably the best scenario.
I feel like this is by far the most productive course of action.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Programmers don't make decisions on what content to include or exclude in games
jim-jam bongs
Member
Okay, here's the way I see it.
Regardless of the target market, allowing same-sex relationships is literally a matter of flipping a switch from a coding/effort perspective. The target market is unaffected, and a market which is apparently eager to join the fun are given their opportunity. For Nintendo it's a positive, for people who want to enjoy their product it's a positive. There is no negative here. At all.
As far as Japan is concerned, I know that there are some particular domestic issues which might make this less of an issue locally. However, Nintendo are a global company. The success of the original Wii and the DS(es) was in no small part down to the purchasing power of the US and European markets, so the idea that they should be totally inward-focusing and not cater at all to those markets is foolish and short-sighted.
And lastly, allowing homosexual relationships doesn't make this "about gay marriage". It makes it representative of humanity in all of its glory.
I almost answered this with sarcasm and hyperbole, but instead I will point out that this game doesn't exclude anyone from playing it.
Wasn't the whole point of the initial uproar was that it was apart of a game breaking bug? That's some switch.
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