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Ethnic Minorities - "Forgot about them".

This is probably why they make white male protagonists.

Not trying to read too deeply into your response, so I'll assume this means that the developers are very aware that people consciously and subconsciously make choices based on the hero on the box. Therefore, smart money says to appeal to the masses for mass sales.

That said, I enjoy seeing diversity in my games. Every once in a while, after 30+ years as a gamer, I enjoy feeling like the avatar in my movie, comic, book, or video game looks ANYTHING like me, has a storied experience similar to mine, and that somebody like me (insert Gay, Woman, ethnic minority), can save the day, too.

It's nice when they throw us a bone sometimes.
 

Preemo

Banned
It would be nice to play as a Black protagonist without the stereotypical ties that the media portrays them as. Black/minority characters do get to play pretty good supporting roles, but I would like to see Naughty Dog or another big game studio use a Black protagonist for one of their main IP's.

what sterotypical ties are those?
 
GTA 4
GTA 5
Left 4 Dead
Left 4 Dead 2
Madden
NBA 2K
Mirror's Edge
Portal
Diablo
Gears of War
Resident Evil 5
Borderlands
Borderlands 2

Come on now the games with minority protagonists are not "usually bad." Anyway seems to me like there are quite a few games out there with minority protagonists.

Let's add the following as well. I feel like that USC study in the OP should have listed the 150 games they played.

Infamous:Second Son
Assassin's Creed III
Prey
Assassin's Creed: Liberation
Far Cry 2
Remember Me
 
Thats gotta be a first for a racing game. Awesome.

I think the TDU games did it. But I don't remember that aspect too well. It's not really a feature in most racers because they're often times in full racing suits and helmets, so you never really get to see the driver anyway.
 
R

Retro_

Unconfirmed Member
yeah when you stop and think about it, its kinda gross how few non white main characters there are in games. games got a ways to go before they even approach movies in terms of diversity

lol

That's because outside of his aesthetics, he's not a token black guy. He's a well-developed character.

Probably has alot to do with how ignored he is by his game series. Unlike the other characters who develop relationships with each other and play prominent roles in the sequels, Sazh is pretty isolated from the rest of the cast.

and while all the white characters are attractive and have "sex appeal" for their intended audience, Sazh is the comic relief. Both in personality and design
 
f046b1bdfdfdc00956baf51d0efe7909-d4wnjsd.jpg


And here we go for Russians, even less so than Chinese. Battle Arena Toshinden for the young GAF
 
Selfishness is when you have a problem and you look at other problems and say "My problem is worse, pay attention to me"

Empathy is when you have a problem and and look at other problems and say "I've been through stuff myself, and I know how it hurts. How can I help?"

I hope you aren't implying I'm being selfish; I could've worded that better tbh, but at the same time I do see things from a big picture and also see particular paradigms and cycles, that have been in various modes of media for decades now. What I was trying to say is that lack of female representation in gaming is still an issue, but with the amount of coverage it gets versus others, it can paint a picture that it's the most "important" issue. Which in some ways I guess it is, we are dealing w/ half the world's population here.

When you go a certain amount of time and see proponents and conversations on one particular issue and a lesser degree of that for other related issues, it usually means two things: That one issue is more realistically solvable in the near future, and that the same issue, as a result, generates more interest and can feed itself. In a balanced society we could resolve all of these issues at a relatively equal rate, but corporate interests profit better by handling them one at a time, and the truth is none of these issues will ever fully be resolved anyway. It's just repeating cycles; the variables change but the equation stays the same.

I better just get back to my dinner; didn't mean to downplay one issue in light of the other, if anyone's wondering.
 
I'm a little confused about this comment:

"I can make him look like me, but have you noticed, when he's standing right there, the way he moves? It's ... weird," Mills said. "He puts his hand on his hip. He twirls his head. I've never seen people who act like that."

I'm not sure if I'd attribute that movement to a particular ethnicity, and then I have to wonder, what particular movement does he want for the character?
 
Selfishness is when you have a problem and you look at other problems and say "My problem is worse, pay attention to me"

Empathy is when you have a problem and and look at other problems and say "I've been through stuff myself, and I know how it hurts. How can I help?"

Is it wrong that most people I've met in my life think this way? It's like they immediately try to counter any misfortune I want to talk about by stating their WORSE misfortune. "So what, that's nothing compared to my _____!!! So you have no right to be depressed or sad!!". Damn, I never mean it to be a "my woeful dick is bigger than yours" battle. But oddly enough, most people in my life were so quick to do just that. Maybe they all drank the same water or something.
 

dugdug

Banned
Emmett from Starhawk is black and I actually quite liked his character. Wish that game gained more traction. Not just because it was a good game, but, might have helped this cause.
 

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member
"I don't see race". Never gets old.
Damn, it must be nice to live with that.

I can't stand the "I don't see it, so it's not worth discussing" sentiment. Truly out of sight, out of mind.

Video game journalism seem to focus on issues that give them hits as opposed to actually trying to solve a problem. With how thing are in the US right now I'm not surprised they're focused on gender equality and presentation.
Ding Ding Ding.

The blogger (journalist) of today imo seems more preoccupied with getting a steady viewership than actually expounding his/her own views (and who's to blame him/her with the current set up of readership, which is completely aqueous and volatile). Gender and sexual orientation seem to be the "flavor of the month" across most media today, just as race was several years ago. If there was actually ardent desire, in the media, to explore the nuances of sexual orientation and gender in daily life, we'd be seeing more headlining dialogue on the systematic discrimination of the trans and bi communities. Sadly, (for the most part) journalists are content waving the flag of "gay rights" without trying to engage and amass a deeper understanding of many underlying problems with the contemporary approach of sexuality and the deeply rooted phobias and prejudice that permeate through all circles.
 
Are there other Filipino/a characters besides Talim?
DoA4_Nicole.jpg


Nicole-458 from DOA4 came to mind

Oh wow, I never knew that.

That just now made me understand something. In learning about Nicole's heritage, that made me internally say "that's awesome, because I'm Filipino too." I've felt that way before while enjoying my hobbies and interests. When I learned that Talim in SC was Filipino, or that Batista in the WWE was part Filipino, or that the main character in the novel Starship Troopers was Filipino.

Whether it's your race, sex, gender, orientation, height, weight, or whatever. I can't begin to explain how important it is seeing yourself (or an aspect of yourself) represented in any media.

It saddens me that many want to play down the voices of minorities who just want representation when they have never needed to fight for representation themselves.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I understand. Thanks for the answer. I think he ment it more in the way that he doesnt discriminate between people just because they have a different skin color. As that he personally dont care what skin color people have and that it is a non-issue for him. Hes just speaking from his point of view, at least that is how i understand it.

Discrimination is more than burning crosses and banning people from restaurants. It's also making assumptions about how other people live as being like how you live. When you say "I'm colour-blind, I don't discriminate", what you lose is the way that ethnicity is not just people of colour being equal to white people, but also the way in which ethnicity has contributed to that person's sense of identity in a positive way; the sense of connection, the shared heritage, the way your family and country's history contributes to the way you feel today. It's the different cultural and historical things--the names, the cooking, the music, the heroes, the triumphs, and the tragedies. Certainly this kind of passive discrimination is less bad than openly causing other people harm, but it's still a problem. In other words, diversity doesn't just imply equality, it also implies a capacity for pluralism or difference.

Clearly hurting someone or banning them from having rights is WRONG. But just because you give someone equal rights, doesn't mean you are respecting the ways in which they're different.

One concept related to this is privilege. Privilege means that we were all born with certain benefits. Like, by being born in a developed country, people like you or me don't really know what it's like to starve on a daily basis, right? Well the same is true for your gender. If you're male, you are not the victim of sexism. If you're straight, you're not the victim of homophobia. If you're part of the majority ethnic group, you're never seen as "different" or "foreign". If you were born without a disability, you've never felt unable to achieve your potential because of barriers based on disability. If you haven't struggled with mental illness, you might not know what it is not to be able to get out of bed because of crippling depression. If you do well socially or are neurotypical, you might not know what it's like not to understand a social situation and be paralyzed by missing social cues. It goes on.

But besides all these things, the fact that you don't feel those stings of discrimination also limits your ability to understand when people do. Basically even really empathetic people who really care about others only know the life they've lived themselves, they can't ever know what it's like to be someone else.

So in this context, the privilege that occurs is that even if someone who is white doesn't believe in legal discrimination against people of colour, because they don't understand other aspects of people of colour's lives, they tend to assume that there aren't other things going on, that since discrimination is solved, race no longer means anything. Because for people in the majority, many parts of their identity they just take for granted because those parts are expressed in the world around them, so they assume that other people share those parts even if they don't.

The short version here is that the worst kind of discrimination... the hate, the laws, the violence, the racial slurs... that's just the tip of the iceberg. Ethnicity is much more complicated. And when you treat it like it doesn't matter, you're missing the ways it does for other people.
 

raphanum

Member
Selfishness is when you have a problem and you look at other problems and say "My problem is worse, pay attention to me"

Empathy is when you have a problem and and look at other problems and say "I've been through stuff myself, and I know how it hurts. How can I help?"

I can personally appreciate this comment. My ex gf was the type to always compare her problems to others. It was quite frustrating. Needless to say, we eventually went our separate ways.
 
I'm black. Sure it sucks that there aren't more black protagonists in video games, but the reality is that there aren't much of anything other than white (mostly male) people in video games. If I were to complain about the lack of black characters or their representation, then so can a Hispanic, Vietnamese, Portuguese, etc, etc all the way down the line.

The first game to come out that has complete equality, and I mean true equality as in one male and one female of every ethnic group, that game will be the worst piece of garbage ever made.

The only way to move towards better equality is to have more diversity in the industry itself. BUT even if that happens there are no guarantees. In my opinion, the majority of gamers are male. Maybe if you include social/mobile games then that statement becomes false but who is really complaining about inequality with those games? Also I believe if you remove sports games (again no one is complaining about equality in Madden) the majority of gamers are Caucasian. So is it really all that hard to believe if the developers of these games understand and cater to their audience? If we want diversity there needs to be more diversity within the industry and more diversity in the consumer base.

EDIT: Although I do believe it should be very easy to not create stereotypical characters. Lee Everett is one of the few non-stereotypical black characters I can think of.
 
The lack of racial diversity is absolutely an issue, and one that needs to be addressed. All it takes is thoughtfulness when creating characters, instead of either unintentionally having blinders on and only making characters like yourself, or worse yet intentionally doing it because "business."

It's especially sad how lacking in diversity the industry is as well. The lack of women and ethnicities in STEM fields is a major issue. We need diverse workforces.
 

Infinite

Member
I find it a bit annoying when were are presenting with this particular thread topic and people who decide to participate distract from the actual discussion by essentially going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS ISSUE?!?!"
 
I love how Pokemon is becoming more diverse. At first, your only choice is to play a male character. But after Crystal, you can play as a female character ever since.

And there are lots and lots more darker skinned characters in Pokemon than ever before, especially starting with Unova. It's controversial which characters are "black" or not. I don't think it's important, what good is that more diversity and more darker skinned characters are present.

Iris is pretty much my favourite character from Pokemon and I'm happy that we not only have several girls and women as Pokemon Champions, but also brown skinned characters. Some people don't think she's black and some people think really strongly that she's black. I don't think that the Pokemon Company has ever canonically stated anyone's race. But she's definitely brown skinned.
UHdSaw4.jpg

I was so excited and happy when Iris was announced as the Champion of Unova.

There's a lot of other brown skinned or maybe "black" people from the Unova region, as well. And several more have shown up in Kalos. Game Freak has gotten a little bit of criticism because a lot of those brown or black characters have been seen as very stereotypical or problematic. But I think it's a step in the right direction.

For instance, Iris started off in the anime swinging from vines. Which brought to mind in people a lot of negative African stereotypes. But overall I think the character is great, she's the darkest skinned champion we've ever had. Having a brown skinned girl as the champion is great! I hope it's not the last time something like this happens.

I also don't think the animators of the Pokemon anime were aware of how Iris swinging from vines could be offensive when they did it. And it isn't in the games.

I'm a little disappointed by how it looks like they straightened her hair for the champion role in Pokemon Black and White 2. She normally looks like she has afro-textured hair. But when she's a champion it looks much straighter like she got her hair straightened.
RbA3nOI.png


There's also Aloe or Lenora who is also very dark skinned and has afro-textured hair. She was also seen as problematic because she was seen as wearing mammy stereotype clothing. But again I don't think that Game Freak knew what they were doing. Also, aside from that, she's definitely not a stereotypical character. She's the director of a museum.

There's also Marshal who is also stereotypically masculine. But I wouldn't say that either Iris or Lenora or Marshal are bad black or brown characters, and are definitely a step in the right direction. It's great having brown people as gym leaders, in the elite four, and as a Pokemon Champion.

And there's Olympia from Kalos who is brown skinned. She has straight hair and I'm not sure if she's supposed to be black, but she definitely brown skinned and that's great. And there's also Grant who is also brown skinned and has afro-textured hair.
fHbRsEx.png

He's definitely not a stereotype.

There's also Sana or Shauna. Who doesn't look intended to be black and is also very light skinned. But is definitely more dark skinned than most rivals.

There is also Phoebe who is also kind of dark skinned and she's in the elite four. She looks like she might inspired by Hawaiians for Filipinos or other groups.

So I think that Pokemon is getting much better at diversity and I'm really happy about that.
 
Perhaps there aren't enough ethnic minorities writing for sites, so that is why we don't see it brought up.

Versus I can think of quite a few feminists / LGBT writers.
 

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member
I find it a bit annoying when were are presenting with this particular thread topic and people who decide to participate distract from the actual discussion by essentially going "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS ISSUE?!?!"
I'm confused, can you quote these people you're accusing? Am I one of them? Not even attacking you. I just don't like drive by passive aggression (since I'm prone to it myself) and would rather have a healthy discussion.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I hope you aren't implying I'm being selfish; I could've worded that better tbh, but at the same time I do see things from a big picture and also see particular paradigms and cycles, that have been in various modes of media for decades now. What I was trying to say is that lack of female representation in gaming is still an issue, but with the amount of coverage it gets versus others, it can paint a picture that it's the most "important" issue. Which in some ways I guess it is, we are dealing w/ half the world's population here.

When you go a certain amount of time and see proponents and conversations on one particular issue and a lesser degree of that for other related issues, it usually means two things: That one issue is more realistically solvable in the near future, and that the same issue, as a result, generates more interest and can feed itself. In a balanced society we could resolve all of these issues at a relatively equal rate, but corporate interests profit better by handling them one at a time, and the truth is none of these issues will ever fully be resolved anyway. It's just repeating cycles; the variables change but the equation stays the same.

I better just get back to my dinner; didn't mean to downplay one issue in light of the other, if anyone's wondering.

I was implying you were being selfish, because by taking the opportunity to turn a conversation about this very worthy problem into complaining that people care about another very worthy problem, you show disrespect for the things other people care about and the reasons they care about them.

I think an analysis of the ways in which subtle racism exists in discourses surrounding video games IN SPITE of a willingness to engage with issues of gender is very valuable. Feminists, for example, have long debated about the presence of racism and exclusion within discourses of feminism (ie that feminism has primarily benefitted white middle class women, rather than recognizing how other elements of identity interact with gender). This is very valuable.

But when you make it adversarial, by devaluing the struggles of others rather than by trying to unite the struggles as part of a broader problem of inclusivity and diversity, that is selfish. This isn't me asking you to spend more time caring about gender, or me asking you to spend less time caring about ethnicity, but rather be telling you to be empathetic to those who do care about gender and use the empathy as a bridge to develop further understanding on the issue of ethnicity.

I'm confused, can you quote these people you're accusing? Am I one of them? Not even attacking you. I just don't like drive by passive aggression (since I'm prone to it myself) and would rather have a healthy discussion.

I believe he's talking about RMS Gigantic, who is using the thread as a platform to discuss the issue of neurodiversity in gaming. I'm of two minds personally; I think ethnicity deserves a space for discussion, and so if RMS's point is to take away from that space, that's wrong. On the other hand, I also think neurodiversity deserves a space for discussion, and if RMS doesn't feel like it's possible for that space to emerge outside of the context of a discussion of other issues of inclusion, then it stands to reason that he'd discuss it here. Ultimately I think the best solution is to encourage everyone to be mindful of others and empathetic towards the ways in which all of us suffer challenges that we can work through together.
 
It wouldn't be hard to do if you allow fighters. They're by far the most diverse genre as far as gender and race go.

Juri
Baek Doo San
Hwoarang
Seong Mina
and err.....Issue is they're all from fighting games.

All-NeoGAF difficulty setting: Name 5 that doesn't involve fighting games

That's the problem and just saying well they are in fighting games so they are okay is a lazy reason
 
I personally don't think the "money vs. risk" reasoning is as valid as some people would like it to be. I think it has to do more with a large number of AAA/AA developers not being talented enough to deliver compelling characters and stories for their games. Making your character white and male seems to lend itself to being a safe option because no one will scrutinize or pick apart that chracter as much as they would a non-white, non-male chatacter. I'm not saying this is OK, but it seems like making a white, male character is a way for a developer to take attention off the main protagonist and story, whereas making a female or non-white character the main protagonist would draw more attention because of how uncommon it is.

Just think of how many forgettable games had generic brown haired, white, male characters and had a forgettable story, most of the time no one debated about the intricacies of those games in relation to the protagonist's ethnicity or gender. My point being, I think it takes a lot of talent to do a good job presenting a non-white, non-male protagonist with a compelling story. Regardless of the intentions, people will focus on that character and pick apart every aspect of whats being represented or portrayed by using a non-white, non-male character. Less talented developers who did focus on ethnic minorities or female protagonists or supporting characters, often times did a poor job portraying them in a non-stereotypical way. And because of this usually got slammed by critics or gamers who simply didnt enjoy the game. While i think using more ethnic minorities and female protagonists as just cookie-cutter, copy and paste charcters would at least get the change going, i'm not sure that would solve the issue of developers wanting to deliver passable stories without scrutiny.

Star Hawk, Remember Me, Prototype 2 were great examples of how you can have a generic main character but also not have to have him/her be white to be the generic action hero people are used to playing.
 

Onemic

Member
Fergus Mills searches for the words. It's clear he wants to say this carefully. The 22-year-old from Macon, Ga. is black. His Xbox Live avatar is black. Except that it's not.P

Drawing it out of him, Mills says it's because of the avatar's body language. And while Mills doesn't say that's really a white guy on his screen, palette-swapped to look like him, he's pretty clear this representation is not from his neighborhood.P

"I can make him look like me, but have you noticed, when he's standing right there, the way he moves? It's ... weird," Mills said. "He puts his hand on his hip. He twirls his head. I've never seen people who act like that."

This quote is troubling to me
 

Authority

Banned
I agree with what you're saying but my question was specifically related to "black hair" and "speaking like a black man." I don't see anything inherently wrong with those things. My guess is that the image in the OP wasn't specific enough which is why I asked for clarification.

Because they are additional attributes to the negative stereotyping. In isolation there is nothing wrong.

If someone asks me how is the white population represented in the media and/or game industry I cannot answer because there is a mass variation of roles, attitudes, personas and so on and so forth. Variety is the key to break the stereotype.
 
I think its something you start to notice and pay attention to more as you get older. One thing I have noticed is when observing younger players of games with character creators. You'll see black and brown kids making the mid 20s white square jawed character you see on almost every game box. They have been trained to think that there is no way a character that looks even remotely like them (skin color is only one factor of many) can be the hero. Thousands of hours of media where the one saving the day or driving the plot is the same archetype has effects, and it ends up with the old saying 'you can't be what you don't see'.

People don't want to insert themselves into the background token character full of stereotypes that exists for comic relief. When almost every piece of media you consume over many years is deliberately excluding entire swathes of the population and favoring one, it's also telling you that you aren't important couldn't even be in these fantasy worlds we create for entertainment.
 
Funny how Sazh is there, when he's probably the least stereotypical dark-skinned videogame character of them all. (and XIII's best character, along with Fang).
 

batfax

Member
Does The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard's Cyrus count for anything, or is he exempt because he's a fantasy race that happens to be dark skinned? I thought he was a pretty good character, and Redguards in general seem to have a pretty interesting place in TES lore.

For the Korean discussion above... Trevor Spacey from Metal Slug?
 

Infinite

Member
I'm confused, can you quote these people you're accusing? Am I one of them? Not even attacking you. I just don't like drive by passive aggression (since I'm prone to it myself) and would rather have a healthy discussion.

I'm not being passive aggressive. What I'm calling out stifles healthy discussion. I see a few posts starting a pissing contest about which minority group has a worse representation in video games. I would like to see these discussions be more about lists but alas I am treading into backseat modding territory.
 
All-NeoGAF difficulty setting: Name 5 that doesn't involve fighting games

That's the problem and just saying well they are in fighting games so they are okay is a lazy reason

I don't think either of us were saying that. We're just pointing out how much diversity exists in that genre compared to others.
 

Infinite

Member
Funny how Sazh is there, when he's probably the least stereotypical dark-skinned videogame character of them all. (and XIII's best character, along with Fang).

It's not that it's just his outward appearance especially in comparison to the rest of the cast.
 

MilkBeard

Member
Sazh might be representative of a "token black guy", but somehow he still manages to be many people's favorite character in the game he's from.

Yeah, it's kind of true. Sazh is interesting because at first he's totally that stereotype, but later in the original XIII he proves to actually be the most realistic, like-able character in the game.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I'm not being passive aggressive. What I'm calling out stifles healthy discussion. I see a few posts starting a pissing contest about which minority group has a worse representation in video games. I would like to see these discussions be more about lists but alas I am treading into backseat modding territory.

I see the issue you're saying and I'm sympathetic to it (see above in my previous reply to the person you just replied to), but probably the best way to address it would b e to talk to the people you feel are the issue, explain why you think that their contribution is taking away from having a space to discuss ethnicity in games rather than adding to a bigger conversation about representation, and encourage them to start a discussion on the issue they are discussing; unless you believe they're posting in bad faith (IE just trying to derail the thread, not being sincere at all) in which case you're probably better off PMing a mod.

I hope I'm conveying here a desire to encourage these kinds of conversations, not discourage them.

Without nominating myself, as I know a few other mods are reading the thread, obviously a number of our mods feel pretty comfortable discussing moderation issues as they relate to identity politics... notably Cyan and Mumei in OT, but Nirolak, charlequin, myself, Steve Youngblood, and besada on this side would probably be good choices if you wanted to follow-up.
 

odhiex

Member
How often do we see Chinese represented in video games?

Similarly, how often do we see Indians represented in video games?

Those two are considered as majority in our populations. I'd like to see more of them being represented in the future.

Then we could go into other ethnics like Indo-malay (like my self), etc.

Diversity in games is good, as long as they are contextual and make sense.
 
I was surprised that Sleeping Dogs turned out to have an actual Chinese guy as the protagonist. Even though he lived most of his life in San Francisco.

Also, having characters randomly use words from their first language spliced into English sentences to remind us how "ethnic" they are feels really forced.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
The whole "well its just more profitable to cater to the majority" has always just struck me as corporate apologism. Yes, its may be more hard to make a "successful game" with a strong minority lead, or a strong female lead, or a strong disabled lead, or whatever. But how is that my problem? I'm fully within my rights as a consumer and really just as a person, since games are art, to say "this is what I'm interested in, this is what I'd like to see" and be frustrated at the current output.
 
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