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RTTP: Ninja Gaiden II (360/PS3)

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
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NeoGAF I want to talk to you about Ninja Gaiden II. Not that sidescrolling one that I've never played. The one that's the best action game of last generation, and maybe ever.

"That's weird", you might think. "I don't remember that Ninja Gaiden 2. I only remember the frustratingly poorly balanced game where the screen was filled with explosions that killed you instantly."

That's okay. There are lots of Ninja Gaiden 2s. There's the competent if flawed sequel to Ninja Gaiden Black, itself inarguably one of the finest action games ever made. There's the disappointing game that bucked the semi-metroidvania level design of the first game in favour of a series of literally and thematically disconnected levels, themselves little more than linearly-sequenced arenas filled with swarms of ninjas and ugly fiends. There's the game where the screen was filled with explosions that killed you instantly.

And then there's the game that, when everything slots together, just ascends to a different plane of action game existence. Where you're not even sure how it is that you're managing to keep up with the carnage on-screen, let alone successfully navigate it, removing limbs, neatly slicing bodies, and slipping effortlessly past the blows of your enemies.

I'm currently replaying both Ninja Gaiden II and Ninja Gaiden Sigma II, and it's reaffirmed to me that in those rare moments of perfect, zen-like brilliance, this is by far and away my favourite action game ever made. At least, on Path of the Mentor. And now I want to invite you all to tell me I'm an idiot (or, better yet, agree with me and lets talk about how incredible this game is).

The game mechanics take a while to soak in and appreciate. The swarms of enemies are deceptively weak; underestimating a single spider ninja is all it takes for it to end Ryu's life. Even after you remove a limb, they still pose a challenge, and their kamikaze throws are more than capable of swiftly killing you if you're not paying attention. Ninja Gaiden II is a game about picking your fights, and getting the job done quickly. The enemies are incredibly manoeuvrable, and your job is to pick out that one with the barrage rocket launcher (often perched at the opposite end of a large arena), taking him out the fight before he can totally throw off your flow, leaving you staggered and vulnerable to the attacks of the others. But somehow the reload time on his rocket launcher seems to shrink when you get within ten feet of him, requiring you to stay nimbly evasive yourself even as you close in for the kill. The best encounters of Ninja Gaiden II have tiers of strategy to them along with the split-second actions required to keep Hayabusa alive, requiring you to quickly decide which enemies need dispatching first, and for you to do it while avoiding the attacks of the ones you're leaving until last.

What surprised me about Ninja Gaiden Sigma II was how little there is that's obviously improved about the game, given the strength of the game they had to build on. Largely pointless bosses are shoehorned in incongruously (impressive considering how largely ignorable the plot is to begin with), although some of the more frustrating, tedious, or otherwise stupid bosses from the 360 release are cut. Enemy encounters are sparser, bringing the overall quality of the game up but bringing the ceiling of quality, and difficulty, down. Mission mode—arguably the best part of the original game—is replaced by the not-nearly-as-good team mission mode. The new weapons add nothing significant to the game. Even the graphics, despite running at full 720p to the 360's 640p, are arguably worse than the original in important ways, dipping more frequently into a sub-30fps slideshow, and the look-closely-or-you'll-miss-it IQ improvement isn't enough to make up for those shortcomings. It's still a good game, great in parts, but only because of what it shares with the 360 version.

So GAF, lets celebrate this game, for everything that it got wrong and for everything that it got so, so right. What's everyone's favourite weapon(s)? (Talons and Scythe, obviously). Favourite levels? (Tough. The return to Hayabusa village maybe? Or that one set inexplicably in Russia.) Haven't played NGII? Then what in sweet hell are you waiting for? (And to avoid dying of old age during the load times, ensure you install it to your HDD.)

(Why is this post written like a magazine article? I don't know. I'm not capable of writing long form without adopting this tone. Sorry.)
 
Aside form the lackluster graphical jump, questionable "difficulty" and sub-par FPS - I loved every bit of it.

Weapon wise, hard not to love the talons but dragon sword on those stairs was brutal.
 
Loved it. I distinctly remember being on the 6th chapter on my second playthrough when my 360 red-ringed for the 3rd time. Multiple playthroughs are rare for me, too, so that's quite the testament.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Obliteration Techniques were nice additions.

Projectile Spam out of the ass above Warrior/Normal, meanwhile: Not so much. I also didn't like the fact that Itagaki changed the game from a "defense-focused" combat system into something like Devil May Cry to throw OT's in.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Also I've only just noticed the delicious irony of the fact that Ninja Gaiden II's box says 'Only on Xbox 360' while Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2's box says 'Only on PlayStation'. lol.
 

TEJ

Member
Ninja Gaiden 2 lacked polish, otherwise it was a great game.

I kind of hated those bosses that instakilled you after beating them if you didn't block.
 

dab0ne

Member
Fun game but not nearly as difficult as people might think. The difficulty comes from cheap, off screen attacks (I'm looking at you exploding shurikens) and enemies not being able to hit each other. Boss fights can be pretty cheap at times too but overall the game is very fun.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I really like the bone-crunching brutality of the Tonfas.

Great game. Too bad it was half finished.

By the way, I thought RTTP threads were about people experiencing older games for the first time?
 

jns

Member
NG2 was my favorite action game last gen. NG2-S was terrible and if you had the choice, I'd tell you to play the 360 version a million times out of ten. In Sigma, you only get like 1.3 enemys on screen at a time--all with 700 times the health--and of course, no blood. The additional characters are bad and so are their levels. The 360 version has some stupid shit happening at times, but no amount of exploding dogs and homing missiles or tunnels of green worms or cinematic staircases can drag down how fucking amazing it feels to tear the almighty fucking hell out of everything, with everything.

Just in case I wasn't clear:
NG2 == the best
NG2S == the worst

I also approve of this thread wholeheartedly.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I haven't played the Vita version, but I can't imagine it's up to much at 30fps. How is it?

Ass. Ignore anyone that mentions the portable versions.

Sub-30FPS (more like 15FPS in NG2S+) and plays terrible for the console.
 

Multro

Neo Member
I'm a really big fan of the entire Ninja Gaiden (especially the NES titles). I can understand those moments you talked about in 2 but boy, I have never played a game that felt as disconnected level to level as that one especially in terms of how combat plays out. Speaking of which, is Razor's Edge actually a good game? I'm also going to parrot an earlier choice and say this title is still held by DMC3: Dante's Awakening
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I really like the bone-crunching brutality of the Tonfas.

Great game. Too bad it was half finished.

By the way, I thought RTTP threads were about people experiencing older games for the first time?

Oh, okay, I thought RTTP threads were just about revisiting older games. My mistake.

The Tonfas were awesome but I found them sometimes difficult to figure out. I think their chance to dismember was slightly lower than the other weapons, and the little off the ground kick Ryu uses to set up OTs is a lot more difficult to land than his other OT moves.

The Kusari-Gama was also incredible fun when you got used to it. Light attacks easily snipped off limbs, there were a number of throws for it too, and the moves where he swings the weighted end were satisfying as hell.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Those are LTTP (late to the party) these are RTTP (returning to the party)

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.


Oh, okay, I thought RTTP threads were just about revisiting older games. My mistake.

The Tonfas were awesome but I found them sometimes difficult to figure out. I think their chance to dismember was slightly lower than the other weapons, and the little off the ground kick Ryu uses to set up OTs is a lot more difficult to land than his other OT moves.

The Kusari-Gama was also incredible fun when you got used to it. Light attacks easily snipped off limbs, there were a number of throws for it too, and the moves where he swings the weighted end were satisfying as hell.

You were right, I was wrong. :p

Tonfas had the unique quality of having feints and i-frame dashes in the middle of combos. I wouldn't necessarily say they're my favorite, but I do love how unique they are. The Tonfa UTs had an extremely high dismemberment rate, excellent tracking from enemy to enemy, and lasted FOREVER. This meant that Tonfas were extremely good at taking out groups of enemies (two dismemberments kills any one enemy).

I never got used to the Kusari-Gama, personally. It was a super neat weapon. I just never invested the time to get good at handling it.
 

paolo11

Member
One of my favorite games. Remember the staircase battle?

It feels good to get 1250/1250 with the Master Ninja Ryu avatar pic on your gamertag.
 

stack9902

Banned
Also I've only just noticed the delicious irony of the fact that Ninja Gaiden II's box says 'Only on Xbox 360' while Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2's box says 'Only on PlayStation'. lol.



LOL ...



I got to the chapter with that flying dragon boss, I think it is chapter 8 or 9. he is tough, I stopped playing several times and keep coming back to it, I haven't beat it yet, but I have it for both systems, I even have it for the vita, the plan is to work through the ps3 and vita versions as well. :) great game.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
One of the three pillars that hold up the "best action games ever".

DMC3
NG2
God Hand

So fucking good.
 

danmaku

Member
NG2 still has the best combat system ever. Path of the mentor NG2 is pure bliss. Master Ninja is still fun but limits your moveset too much (most of the combos are simply too unsafe to be viable).

Itagaki should kickstart a spiritual sequel.

I'm a really big fan of the entire Ninja Gaiden (especially the NES titles). I can understand those moments you talked about in 2 but boy, I have never played a game that felt as disconnected level to level as that one especially in terms of how combat plays out. Speaking of which, is Razor's Edge actually a good game?

Yes, it is. It has problems, but so does NG2. Combat is still extremely fun, especially with the girls. Too bad you can't use the tonfas D:
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
One of my favorite games. Remember the staircase battle?

It feels good to get 1250/1250 with the Master Ninja Ryu avatar pic on your gamertag.

Yup, I currently have my Master Ninja Ryu avatar up. I'd probably only have replaced it if DMC4 or DMCHD had a similar avatar pic unlocked for 1000ing the game.
 

Feindflug

Member
I completed NGII on Master Ninja difficulty last year and it was such a fun, tense and memorable experience. Maybe I'm crazy but the pacing in the NG series puts to shame all the other character action titles IMO (except TW101), NGII feels like an adventure to me with all the varied environments and I really love the contrast between the quite moments and the chaos that happens when enemies are on screen...and oh boy when you are in combat, the gore, the fuckin' badass OST, I even think that the animations (OT especially) in this game are so brutal and so perfectly executed.

Now to answer your question my favorite weapon is the Scythe and my favorite level is by far Chapter 11: A Tempered Gravestone, in fact I'd go as far as to say that it's the best character action game level ever IMO.

NGII is on my top 5 of last gen, too bad the franchise now is at the hands of Team Ninja Dog. :(
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I'm a really big fan of the entire Ninja Gaiden (especially the NES titles). I can understand those moments you talked about in 2 but boy, I have never played a game that felt as disconnected level to level as that one especially in terms of how combat plays out.

I think that—whether it worked or not—the game was supposed to be a throwback to sidescrollers that didn't necessarily have thematically connected levels themselves. This one's in a city! This one's on a bridge! Now you're in a jungle!

The thematic choices for a lot of the levels would lend themselves to 16-bit stylisation. The Kremlin and St. Basil's cathedral as the furthest level of a parallax-scrolling Russian stage. Using platforms to avoid the canals of Venice. Weird detours through sewers. My feeling is that it's supposed to be nostalgic, even if it came across as disconnected and weird.
 

BuBBeR

Banned
Game is amazing! When you master the sequence that i personaly call "the dance" (Guilhotine Throw -> Obliterate -> Ultimate) the game pretty much change.
Lunar staff FTW!
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Lunar staff FTW!

Yeah, the Lunar Staff is borderline broken and is arguably the best weapon in the game. Superb range, extremely powerful quick combos, can initiate an izuna drop from the air, and lvl 1 UT has a 100% beheading rate.

The existence of this weapon highlights how much more time Itagaki probably would have liked to work on the game to balance it.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Yeah, the Lunar Staff is borderline broken and is arguably the best weapon in the game. Superb range, extremely powerful quick combos, can initiate an izuna drop from the air, and lvl 1 UT has a 100% beheading rate.

The existence of this weapon highlights how much more time Itagaki would have liked to work on the game.

I like how perfectly the level 3 version is a microcosm of the entire game though. At some point Itagaki just sat down with the designers and was like 'well the level 3 version at the moment is just the same as that level 2 version but with spiky balls on each end. that's not good enough. the spikey balls be on chains. they should spin as he swings it.'

Pure unadulterated absurdity.
 

dab0ne

Member
Yeah, the Lunar Staff is borderline broken and is arguably the best weapon in the game. Superb range, extremely powerful quick combos, can initiate an izuna drop from the air, and lvl 1 UT has a 100% beheading rate.

The existence of this weapon highlights how much more time Itagaki probably would have liked to work on the game to balance it.

I agree but if Lunar staff is wrong, baby, I don't wanna be right :p
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
The Ninja Gaiden Sigma games are like watching a kid try to recreate the Mona Lisa in finger paint.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Incredible game and the "staircase" fight is one of the most epic scenes in the game.

I loved the first Neo Tokyo stage, and the later stages with the demons. Fighting the werewolves in Venice was kind of odd though. I know it wasn't technically possible at the time but going through these normally highly populated cities and not seeing any people about is always odd.

OP you also need to play Sigma 2+ alongside the others in your play through.
 

Draft

Member
NG2 breaks my heart because underneath all the crummy bosses and technical hiccups is an exhilarating combat system with some of the most satisfying killing in video games. The fights sometimes look like QTEs while keeping step, jump, and slash in the player's control. Really exciting and rewarding stuff.

Great OP, wonderful to read, thanks.
 

BadWolf

Member
Can't say I hold it in as high a regard as other character action games.

The games rely way too much on the invincible move (UT?) spam.
 

Ninja Dom

Member
Can't say I hold it in as high a regard as other character action games.

The games rely way too much on the invincible move (UT?) spam.

I'm too traditional for that. I rely on the Dragon Blade and Izuna Drops.

There's this guy on YouTube who made some awesome high level NG2 gameplay and play through videos. Xkzerion, I think his name was. I'll check.

Edit: Yeah Xkzerion. There's also some great No Damage Master Ninja walkthrough's on YouTube too.
 
One of the three pillars that hold up the "best action games ever".

DMC3
NG2
God Hand

So fucking good.

I love God Hand as much as the next guy, but it doesn't really hold it's own against games like these in terms of combat.

Besides, the three pillars are widely accepted to be:

NGB
DMC3
Bayonetta

Anyway, love NG2. Less so NGS2, but it's still good. It's just really unfortunate that it really went way too far in attempting to 'fix' NG2, resulting in too easy of a game, or sections becoming boring.

But anyway, I love the underlying combat of the game. The Obliteration technique is a brilliant mechanic that never gets old, and the visual spectacle of the combat is pretty much perfect. I understand why some people are frustrated with the offensive focus compared to Black's defensive focus, but I think it's largely successful and quite an interesting take on the base combat style that those two games share.
 
I've always found NG2 interesting in how it stands apart from its predecessor, mostly in ways that I don't find quite as good but then a friend of mine who actually managed to wring the platinum out of Sigma 2 prefers it for some of these reasons, so it's a bit like one of those sequels that retains a similar core but overhauls the structure and style which gives it it's own identity outside of simply being a straight sequel.
Less adventure, more action I suppose, it's much more direct throwing larger groups of more durable enemies at you that turns it into something resembling a smaller scale bloody musou outing as the numbers game gets thrown against you, each defeated enemy has another replacement waiting in the wings to dive into the arena so you never truly know when the onslaught will end. I never found the structure of NG2 to work that well for me, the more linear approach leads to lots of endurance focused fights separated by the odd corridor that funnels you to the next encounter, it's still fun but exhausting, I preferred the balance NGB employed between its smaller scaled yet tense fights and light adventure elements (even with its janky as fuck platforming).
But going back to an earlier point, for my friend it's this straight to the point fight focus that gives NG2 the edge so each to their own I guess.
NG2 does take advantage of its linear progression to give a much greater variety of environments to roam through so that's a plus it takes from this approach.

I don't have much else to add seeing that I'm kinda crummy at this game but I figured the OP deserved a response because this is a fine RTTP thread.

What's everyone's favourite weapon(s)? (Talons and Scythe, obviously)
You know it, I'm happy that two of my favourite weapon types got represented in here.
 

Majestad

Banned
Gaiden II is my favorite character based action game next to Bayonetta, and I think it is miles better than the overrated original because it focuses on the series best feature: combat. Fucking loved this game.
 

BadWolf

Member
I'm too traditional for that. I rely on the Dragon Blade and Izuna Drops.

There's this guy on YouTube who made some awesome high level NG2 gameplay and play through videos. Xkzerion, I think his name was. I'll check.

Edit: Yeah Xkzerion. There's also some great No Damage Master Ninja walkthrough's on YouTube too.

Yeah I'm sure there is some super high level play out there but the general strat seems to be to spam a few things like UTs, Izuna Drop etc. for the most part.

I love God Hand as much as the next guy, but it doesn't really hold it's own against games like these in terms of combat.

Besides, the three pillars are widely accepted to be:

NGB
DMC3
Bayonetta

God Hand stands above them all imo.

Huge and fully costumizable move list with the best dodging system in any game. And the game itself is very memorable and funny.
 

cerulily

Member
We must have played different games, Ninja Gaiden 2 360 looked absolutely last gen compared to the ps3 version.

VIA digital foundry article

The enemy counts may be lower, but these textures were shameful

pixel_360_1.jpg.jpg

360

pixel_ps3_1.jpg.jpg

ps3


The tengu brothers were a legitimatly fun fight that leveraged the combat system in ways other big bosses did not, such as the counter system. The removal of the double armadillos is so welcome it's crazy. And the black dragon fight was fine (i don't see the problem).

The enemy count and blood was sorely missed but the game pretty much remains intact. I don't understand the overall logic that somehow sigma was any measure of a worse game.
 

yea, sigma 2 is a great game. i haven't seen that df article in a while, but i bet they fail to mention how much better the new dts track was. you would never want to go back to the original dd track from xbox.

i'm also glad they cut most of that underwater part and the terrible fish spam.
 

Sinatar

Official GAF Bottom Feeder
The enemy count and blood was sorely missed but the game pretty much remains intact. I don't understand the overall logic that somehow sigma was any measure of a worse game.

You don't understand how changing every single encounter in the game can make it worse? What?
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
We must have played different games, Ninja Gaiden 2 360 looked absolutely last gen compared to the ps3 version.

VIA digital foundry article

The enemy counts may be lower, but these textures were shameful

pixel_360_1.jpg.jpg

360

pixel_ps3_1.jpg.jpg

ps3


The tengu brothers were a legitimatly fun fight that leveraged the combat system in ways other big bosses did not, such as the counter system. The removal of the double armadillos is so welcome it's crazy. And the black dragon fight was fine (i don't see the problem).

The enemy count and blood was sorely missed but the game pretty much remains intact. I don't understand the overall logic that somehow sigma was any measure of a worse game.

Textures were worse in the 360 version, but the use of bloom in the 360 version is much more accomplished (i.e. they use it in the hell stages where everything glows, but the game isn't bathed in a radioactive glow the whole of the rest of the time). And the clincher for me is the double whammy of the framerate and the cut enemy count. With fewer enemies on-screen, the framerate of the PS3 version is, on average, lower than the 360 version, for barely any IQ advantage, arguably worse lighting in half of the game (particularly, again, the hell levels), and far easier encounters. They're very similar, they just never reach that zen-like flurry that the more hectic encounters of NG2 do.

Honestly though I don't care about the missing gore that much, although I expected to. It's obvious why they cut it, though—the PS3 version at 720p can barely keep up with the geometry and alpha effects being thrown around the screen as it is. Keeping the 360 version's gore would have slashed the framerate even further than it already is. I think in that circumstance cutting it was wise.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I love God Hand as much as the next guy, but it doesn't really hold it's own against games like these in terms of combat.

Besides, the three pillars are widely accepted to be:

NGB
DMC3
Bayonetta


Anyway, love NG2. Less so NGS2, but it's still good. It's just really unfortunate that it really went way too far in attempting to 'fix' NG2, resulting in too easy of a game, or sections becoming boring.

But anyway, I love the underlying combat of the game. The Obliteration technique is a brilliant mechanic that never gets old, and the visual spectacle of the combat is pretty much perfect. I understand why some people are frustrated with the offensive focus compared to Black's defensive focus, but I think it's largely successful and quite an interesting take on the base combat style that those two games share.
The three pillars existed long before Bayonetta was even released. And God Hand beats the shit out of Bayo when it comes to competetive action.

Edit: my quote was supposed to say NG:B btw.
 
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