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Developers call out Ubisoft on their stance regarding playable female characters
- Thread starter MagicWithEarvin
- Start date
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
RégisEstUnCon;116137436 said:
RégisEstUnCon;116137436 said:
I'll just let you figure out the mistake you've made here.
Yep. They mentioned that you will be playing the entire game as Arno. There is no choice to change your character. You just see "placeholder" chars for your friends in Coop.
Those Who Came Before are not aliens. Yeah, the whole part with TWCB and SiFi elements don't make sens, but they try (even if they fail) to have a certain level of historical accuracy for the memory you are visiting.
Hasn't Assassins Creed had female characters ever since they added in multiplayer numerous games ago? I know the MP tends to be designed by a seperate Ubi studio and doesn't encompass the full range of animations of the singleplayer but it could be used as a basis.
Then again they are supposedly redoing almost every player character animation for this game with few if any used from previous games. Built from the ground up if you will instead of a repaint.
Then again they are supposedly redoing almost every player character animation for this game with few if any used from previous games. Built from the ground up if you will instead of a repaint.
Two days to create a female character? That is surely nonsense.
In a game like Far Cry, I can''t help but think an enormous number of things would have to change to reflect the possibility of both male and female characters. Any developer who thinks it's a minor bit of work surely isn't that experienced, or just isn't thinking.
Say it's Far Cry 3. So, so many things would have had to change in that game to have a female character make any sense. You have a girlfriend, you have sex with a female, you are attacked by a menacing homosexual. These three things would simply not work with a female character
Perhaps the better question is, why isn't the main character something other than a white male? Despite that question, the outrage here is manufactured bandwagoning.
In a game like Far Cry, I can''t help but think an enormous number of things would have to change to reflect the possibility of both male and female characters. Any developer who thinks it's a minor bit of work surely isn't that experienced, or just isn't thinking.
Say it's Far Cry 3. So, so many things would have had to change in that game to have a female character make any sense. You have a girlfriend, you have sex with a female, you are attacked by a menacing homosexual. These three things would simply not work with a female character
Perhaps the better question is, why isn't the main character something other than a white male? Despite that question, the outrage here is manufactured bandwagoning.
What's unusual is that you don't realize some people say what they mean and the internet is accessed by billions of people. So yes people are correct to assume he meant "It is prohibitively time-consuming and expensive" if that's their prerogative because we aren't mind readers. The onus is on him to communicate his thoughts correctly.
Pretty sure that's not right. There are gender differences in terms of gait.
I was thinking the hips thing is wrong myself. I'll just have to stare at a lot of men's asses today to verify this.
I actually think that when they say "it's not worth it" it's not a matter of money, but a matter of time.
Projects like this one, with hundreds of staff, need a ton of bureaucracy, since the more people work, the less actual freedom they have, since they need to be more structured.
Let's say that i'm an animator, or whatever, and I want to add a woman to the coop, how long is it going to take? including compilation, bug checking, QA and all that? six hours? a day? dunno.
But then, these six hours that I was working on that, are six hours that I wasn't free to help that other guy on that whatever thing we were scheduled to do months ago, and so we won't be able to help in that another thing, and so on and so on.
Even a change of one day in the release date of a game is a lot of money lost, they'll need to tell all the millions and millions and people who were waiting to buy that game day one, why they'll need to wait one more day (and they outnumber the people who care about woman in coop by at least 50:1), they'll have to talk to all of the stores, and buildings, and whereever they already payed millions to to have their commercials on the right time and so on.
So what's the problem? Just hire another animation guy/girl for this!
Again, not that simple, but i'm too damn lazy to explain why I think that is.
Projects like this one, with hundreds of staff, need a ton of bureaucracy, since the more people work, the less actual freedom they have, since they need to be more structured.
Let's say that i'm an animator, or whatever, and I want to add a woman to the coop, how long is it going to take? including compilation, bug checking, QA and all that? six hours? a day? dunno.
But then, these six hours that I was working on that, are six hours that I wasn't free to help that other guy on that whatever thing we were scheduled to do months ago, and so we won't be able to help in that another thing, and so on and so on.
Even a change of one day in the release date of a game is a lot of money lost, they'll need to tell all the millions and millions and people who were waiting to buy that game day one, why they'll need to wait one more day (and they outnumber the people who care about woman in coop by at least 50:1), they'll have to talk to all of the stores, and buildings, and whereever they already payed millions to to have their commercials on the right time and so on.
So what's the problem? Just hire another animation guy/girl for this!
Again, not that simple, but i'm too damn lazy to explain why I think that is.
Yeah man, he's on the Uncharted 4 team now, he definitely got the better end of the deal haha.Still bitter for firing him?
(j/k, most probably he just left Ubi for ND)
The French Revolution was instigated by white male bourgeois, so it makes sens that the main protagonist is a white male bourgeois.
"Animation Director on Assassin's Creed III, Lead on Mass Effect 1, 2 & more."
He is pretty much an amateur.
hobbie8046
Banned
Who cares? I am so sick of this PC bull shit, and I'm disappointed that it has reached gaming. They can make whatever games they like, and if you don't like it don't buy it.
Impeccable
Member
I'd love a return to a female assassin.
Because Ubisoft decided so. Probably he works best for storytelling, or I don't know. We've seen black/female protagonists in earlier AC games, so they're ok with that.
Their answer was the worst possible however, if the co-op plays like Watch Dogs, where you are Aiden anyway, but other players see you as a random npc.
That's the wrong question to ask. There's nothing problematic with white male main characters, especially when they are the only ones that make sense within the story you want to tell. A female pirate captain wouldn't necessarily make a believable (hi)story, for instance.
The right question to ask is: Why are there so few games where the main character isn't a white male? When it comes to that question, the AC series doesn't do a bad job.
As I edited in:
"Say it's Far Cry 3. So, so many things would have had to change in that game to have a female character make any sense. You have a girlfriend, you have sex with a female, you are attacked by a menacing homosexual. These three things would simply not work with a female character"
The fact the comments come from someone who should know better doesn't mean their statements are gold.
Incidentally, given that this story originates about Far Cry... that's the one I'm discussing.
teruterubozu
Member
One can always dream for AC: Beach Volleyball
Oh most definitely. I'm a hetero man, so I can tell you from a great amount of personal research that the female way of movement is far more enjoyable. Ahem.
However, there are as many people as there are drops of water in the sea, and I have witnessed men with swingy hips and women with the typical male bulldozer movements.
What I'm saying is, reskinning a male character with a female mesh while leaving animation the same and selling that as female character is no problem at all. Many people will notice particularly unfitting movement sequences, but it's not a problem of immersion and easily explained away by training or a good dose of technobabble, which AC has more than a fair share of, anyway.
They are making a game and it's well within their rights to forego female characters. Just as it is within our rights to criticise them for it, particularly after foot-in-mouth comments.
That is a better way to word it - though what I meant. Far Cry (again, the actual topic of this thread) has always been a white male though, I believe?
Assassin's Creed is about as realistic and historically accurate as Lord of the Rings. There are some names, some buildings that are based on reality and the graphics have a nice historical looks but come on.
I'm saying this as a huge fan of AC 2 and Black Flag.
Ascenion
Member
It was possible to include a female. Look at Aveline. A good majority of her animations were Connor's with a few new ones, I'd almost argue 90% were Connor's aside from maybe basic movement and weapons he didn't have. That can't be the reason it's simply too bullshit. I gotta agree with the everyone is Arno camp. Regardless if half French half black assassin Aveline de Grandpre is not in this game as the mentor or local leader....I will flip my shit.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
They make it sound as it's an afterthought
Why not try to cast a bigger net and maybe grab some gamers that are female who would love to play as female assassin, hell some males would also
Option/Choice is never a bad thing
Hell most of the Ass Creeds MP have had female roles and they can use that right there as a starting point
Monocle
Member
Would play.
Yeah I know, they could have a female protagonist and it would work. I just say that it makes sens. It's the safe (and, imo, lazy) choice.
I'm just going to say that videogames allows a lot of creativity weather in settings, storytelling or art. I for one would love to play more games with a female lead or, at least with a stronger female presence. Same goes for new locations, new countries to explore, new settings like the 60's, 70's 80's.
A game like Child of Light seems pretty creative with its art, soundtrack and how they told the story. Also, it have a female lead and I gladly purchased the Deluxe Edition on Day one. I can understand the fear some companies may have when doing this but someone needs to break this and allow more and more possibilities in a game. There's a huge world with different people, culture, different colours and different settings, yet, so many focus on the same.
A game like Child of Light seems pretty creative with its art, soundtrack and how they told the story. Also, it have a female lead and I gladly purchased the Deluxe Edition on Day one. I can understand the fear some companies may have when doing this but someone needs to break this and allow more and more possibilities in a game. There's a huge world with different people, culture, different colours and different settings, yet, so many focus on the same.
EventHorizon
Member
I'd like to have the option of a female character too, but this is a non-issue. It is overreactions like this that force developers not to say anything and get wrapped in a PR bubble.
Dev: Hey let's make a viddoc telling our fans what we're working on and give them a behind the scene look
PR: Oh h3ll no!!! Remember that time we said we'd like to include a record feature but had to cut it
Dev: Oh yea, I got called a lazy dev for 2 weeks over that one
So what, they decided it was too much trouble to add a female character. Big deal. It's their call.
Dev: Hey let's make a viddoc telling our fans what we're working on and give them a behind the scene look
PR: Oh h3ll no!!! Remember that time we said we'd like to include a record feature but had to cut it
Dev: Oh yea, I got called a lazy dev for 2 weeks over that one
So what, they decided it was too much trouble to add a female character. Big deal. It's their call.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
"Go for the Spike!"
*Snikt* *GASP* *Blood-Curdling Scream*
"Spike the Volleyball, not the opponent with the hidden blade!"
Woo-Fu
Banned
Because it either was an afterthought or it was conscious decision to spend those resources on something they felt was more important to the project.
Sounds fine to me. I'm not going to throw Ubisoft under the bus for how one dev answered a loaded question. Any answer was going to be ripped to shreds.
Maybe Ubisoft should start hiring politicians instead of developers.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Ubisoft's PR fucked up.
I wouldn't want to say you can just flip a switch and make a female character (not without setting certain things in place first, at least), because I really have no idea, but I really don't think "It's too hard" flies when you have 1000 people across 10 different studios working on your game.
But every year, Ubisoft announce a new Assassin's Creed and every year people ask about this and every year they give an excuse and those excuses seem to become more and more patronising. Sometimes I wish companies would just cop whatever backlash for being honest and saying "You know what? We don't feel like it. Whatever it is you want us to do, we don't feel like doing it right now."
But every year, Ubisoft announce a new Assassin's Creed and every year people ask about this and every year they give an excuse and those excuses seem to become more and more patronising. Sometimes I wish companies would just cop whatever backlash for being honest and saying "You know what? We don't feel like it. Whatever it is you want us to do, we don't feel like doing it right now."
cartoon_soldier
Member
Playing Watch Dogs...I really wanted to play as Clara than Aiden.
This is a shitty stance Ubisoft.
This is a shitty stance Ubisoft.
Sure,they could get around that if they so wanted, though I guess it depends on what sort of quality standards they have and how strictly they want to adhere to them, if they want animations for the average male/female then they should have the average male/female's gait in mind despite the existence of exceptions. Don't get me wrong though, I still think their decision to forego female characters, particularly for this setting, is a shitty one.
No, but since they have much more experience than me about something, I am less inclined to believe in my own assumptions and put their points down to silliness. There are obvious changes which need to be made between male and female characters (especially with FC3), but whether these changes can be made to existing models over a couple of days with a team of hundreds is something which I would expect him to know more than you tbh.
Impeccable
Member
Why is it when it comes to topics like this the majority of people are saying, "It would be nice if..."
Yet the thread of people against it are very verbal in not only their opposition to the suggestion that variety of lead characters in terms of gender and race would interesting they also have to chase down some "liberal-PC-media-bullshit circus" when in reality it's barely scratching that level. Some gamers are maturing and realizing that new and interesting experiences can be had by not always playing a generic lead, there isn't some agenda being had here - it's a natural maturation occuring in the minds of consumers. It makes it frustrating and off-putting to have conversations on the matter when most of the time people deflect with some strawman arguments.
It's disappointing to say the least and doesn't cultivate a (what could be) productive conversation.
Yet the thread of people against it are very verbal in not only their opposition to the suggestion that variety of lead characters in terms of gender and race would interesting they also have to chase down some "liberal-PC-media-bullshit circus" when in reality it's barely scratching that level. Some gamers are maturing and realizing that new and interesting experiences can be had by not always playing a generic lead, there isn't some agenda being had here - it's a natural maturation occuring in the minds of consumers. It makes it frustrating and off-putting to have conversations on the matter when most of the time people deflect with some strawman arguments.
It's disappointing to say the least and doesn't cultivate a (what could be) productive conversation.
ZehDon
Member
I really cannot believe that this whole "Unity is sexist" crap is still a "thing".
Shall we make a list of all of the games featured at E3 where females weren't lead characters, and call out the developers as the sexist pigs that they clearly are? Cause, like, that's a really long fucking list. Like, a really long fucking list.
I'd love for their to be more female characters in gaming. I'd love for their to be more gender options for player characters in gaming where story allows. I'm always for choice. Always. But... this current situation is true for some 95% of all games released in the last ten years, and higher for games released prior. Why is Unity, and by extension Ubisoft, all of a sudden The Devil? Why is this game "the last straw"? Because a developer attempted to explain their feature prioritization, and explained that adding an expensive feature like gender selection doesn't equate to a proportional boost in sales to justify said expense? Because, like I said, it's a long fucking list of games operating under identical thinking. Why aren't we berating them on twitter?
I don't believe Unity has presented anything egregious enough to warrant this, or to warrant being singled out. I'm all for diversity, but I'll save my torch and pitchfork for another day.
Shall we make a list of all of the games featured at E3 where females weren't lead characters, and call out the developers as the sexist pigs that they clearly are? Cause, like, that's a really long fucking list. Like, a really long fucking list.
I'd love for their to be more female characters in gaming. I'd love for their to be more gender options for player characters in gaming where story allows. I'm always for choice. Always. But... this current situation is true for some 95% of all games released in the last ten years, and higher for games released prior. Why is Unity, and by extension Ubisoft, all of a sudden The Devil? Why is this game "the last straw"? Because a developer attempted to explain their feature prioritization, and explained that adding an expensive feature like gender selection doesn't equate to a proportional boost in sales to justify said expense? Because, like I said, it's a long fucking list of games operating under identical thinking. Why aren't we berating them on twitter?
I don't believe Unity has presented anything egregious enough to warrant this, or to warrant being singled out. I'm all for diversity, but I'll save my torch and pitchfork for another day.
NekoFever
Member
Pretty sure that's not right. There are gender differences in terms of gait.
There are differences, but they're not so pronounced that applying an average male walk animation to an average female character model would look out of place.
Applying a sexy, hip-swinging walk to a bulky marine would look ridiculous in the same way that giving Lara Croft Marcus Fenix's animations would too, but utilitarian walking, running and jumping shouldn't be a problem.
figadapaura
Member
Such a dumb decision. Instead of including a woman, we're stuck with 4 identical men. Why??/ Were they so afraid of some idiot men being upset that they had to play as a woman during co-op? Wtf Ubi?
I was excited for this game, but now I don't give the slightest shit.
I was excited for this game, but now I don't give the slightest shit.
Crazypanda_85
Member
Pretty sure that's not right. There are gender differences in terms of gait.
What he said is wrong.The way someone walks is determined by more than if they have the same limbs or a hip. Weight, bone structure (which is actually different between men and women), and several other elements.
(I didn't want to add anything to the overall discussion but wanted to respond to that one incorrect twitter comment)
figadapaura
Member
You don't have to be an esteemed developer to know that you couldn't replace Far Cry 3's character with a female one in two days. It's pure rubbish. Whether that's what he means is another question. As we don't know the story of Far Cry 4, it's hard to know for sure, but I'd practically guarantee it would take far longer than two days.
Could you go from a male model/rig/animations to female model/rig/animations in two days? Perhaps. That's not the same thing. Animations is one area of many.
I can see some reasons. Ubi is a huge company with a staggering amount of people making their games. You can die of old age before you get to the end of their credits lists. And they still give the excuse of 'no manpower/time'. It might fly with any other company but not Ubi.
Also, when I fire up an Ubi game I get to read a disclaimer how the game was created by a multinational multicultural team of many creeds and blah blahhh blah so how come it's so hard to get that diversity into gameplay? All the nations, genders and religions of earth unite to create generic white male protags with 25% of the personality of Ezio?
TatteredHat
Member
On the other hand, Ubisoft is under no obligation to add female characters if they don't want to, but they should've just stayed quiet about the whole thing.
ZehDon
Member
You didn't actually read about the game, did you? The "four identical men" are actually all the same man. Who can be customised... hence the variation. They didn't build four seperate characters, and exclude women. They made one highly customisable character, and deemed it too expensive to add a female character with the same high degree of customisation.
A valid point. However, its worth noting that while technology is shared across the games, they have several "Assassins Creed" games in active development across multiple developers in multiple countries. It's not like they have ten developers working on one game. It's a "Call of Duty" situation, wherein large scale changes from game to game aren't feasible due to the limited development time a given release is allotted. Iterative design thus becomes the norm. Ubisoft have said they took this opportunity to rebuild a lot of their tools, laying the framework for next-gen Assassin's Creed games, including the animation and physics system. With character customisation full developed now, they have the tools already built, meaning gender selection moving forward is more likely - at least for multiplayer. Small steps. It's not ideal, but they're getting there.
SketchTheArtist
Member
Ubisoft is very picky about animations for its main characters (even if they're not super interesting as individuals) so I could understand why they didn't put ressources on it.
There's also the fact that the majority of gamers are guys (not saying there's not A LOT of girl gamers, just as a whole, they're not the majority of the demographic, so I guess that would be why in Ubisoft games, there's a ton of female supporting cast (or main female characters in smaller games like Child of Light or AC Vita). But as an industry, we're getting there.
If you look back 10 years ago, the industry was at a different place in time. It's growing, just a bit slowly.
Also, I'm not angry that there's no female leads in AAA games by Valve or Rockstar. Even Dan Houser answered that question too last year and simply said it just is. That's not the game they were making.
Relax guys, no need for internet mobs.
There's also the fact that the majority of gamers are guys (not saying there's not A LOT of girl gamers, just as a whole, they're not the majority of the demographic, so I guess that would be why in Ubisoft games, there's a ton of female supporting cast (or main female characters in smaller games like Child of Light or AC Vita). But as an industry, we're getting there.
If you look back 10 years ago, the industry was at a different place in time. It's growing, just a bit slowly.
Also, I'm not angry that there's no female leads in AAA games by Valve or Rockstar. Even Dan Houser answered that question too last year and simply said it just is. That's not the game they were making.
Relax guys, no need for internet mobs.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I have always found the animation argument suspect. Just look at Mass Effect. I don't think anyone is complaining about how Female Shep moves. Unless you're specifically trying to make a VERY feminine move set, interchanging them shouldn't be an issue.
Shin Johnpv
Member
There are some ways Women and Men move similar and there are lots of ways they move differently. You could definitely edit mocap from a male actor to look female, but it'd be more work, than just recording a female actor IMHO.
I'm not defending UbiSoft's comment here or their decision, but at least trying to be more accurate than just saying it's as easy as slapping some male actor's mocap onto a female character. There's definitely differences some subtle, some not so subtle.
I'm going to disagree with the one guy in the OP, Men and Women's hips should be handled differently, specially in things like walking around. Men and Women walk differently, and proportions are going to be different as well.
Not even saying a female character has to walk with a super feminine hip sway or something, there's still going to be slight differences. It's also like a dude that's 5'2, weighs 300 lbs and is mostly fat, is going to walk/move very different from a dude that's 6'2 300lbs and solid muscle.
Any time a game just slaps on a woman's walk onto a male character or vice versa it looks really bad IMHO. I can understand why they wouldn't want to do that.
That said I would LOVE another female Assassin, while ACIII Liberation was rough around the edges, and IMHO an unfinished game, Aveline (spelling) was fantastic. Ubisoft should have put the time and money into having some female assassins for the MP at least.