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[JABEE]

What happens when real Journalists (Al Jazeera) report on GamerGate:

This GamerGate garbage is not what people should have issues with. People should be talking about the way the system is set up. There should be someone who can write an intelligent piece that doesn't devolve into MRA rhetoric.
There is another side to being wary of ethical questions and having issues with the way games journalism currently works. Right now, no journalist is willing to make those arguments. There is no doubt that there is a problem. It's just that the people making themselves the public face of these issues are anonymous shitheads.
It's disappointing that it is believed there are no problems worthy of inspecting with games journalism because jerks have poisoned the debate. We have had so many opportunities to have this discussion before this Zoe Quinn and other bullshit came out, but no one was really willing to answer. Now there is another excuse not to feel the need to be accountable. Another event to use to rationalize the way things work now.

 

[JABEE]

Also, this Jen Frank thing is annoying me. Leave her alone. I don't really know how to stop anonymous internet abuse and conspiracy theorist wanting "proof." Stupid ugly side of the internet.

 

[Gsak]

This GamerGate garbage is not what people should have issues with. People should be talking about the way the system is set up. There should be someone who can write an intelligent piece that doesn't devolve into MRA rhetoric.
There is another side to being wary of ethical questions and having issues with the way games journalism currently works. Right now, no journalist is willing to make those arguments. There is no doubt that there is a problem. It's just that the people making themselves the public face of these issues are anonymous shitheads.
It's disappointing that it is believed there are no problems worthy of inspecting with games journalism because jerks have poisoned the debate. We have had so many opportunities to have this discussion before this Zoe Quinn and other bullshit came out, but no one was really willing to answer. Now there is another excuse not to feel the need to be accountable. Another event to use to rationalize the way things work now.

Agreed. We had every chance of sitting down and talking like adults, without resorting to "war". Journalists of the industry could have looked into all the allegations. They didn't. Most of us chose sides. The "war" got huge and now it drew the attention of actual reporters. So in a way, they might end up doing the work that vg press should have done in the first place.


Also... LOLWUT? https://twitter.com/MikeMcWhertor/status/507363622280892418

 

[Wereroku]

Dan was dropping a lot of hints about his hiring while the process was still ostensibly unfolding. The outward appearance is that he knew basically the whole time that he was going to get the job, which makes the process look like a sham.

This happens pretty much everywhere. At my job they don't really even list a job until they know who they want. Everyone goes through an informal interview process then go to HR and say hire this person. So they write a job listing identical to the persons qualifications and if someone else applies that would get precedent like a layoff or ex-military they will cancel and relist the position to cause those applicants to no longer be qualified as justification for overlooking them.

 

[JesseEwiak]

This happens pretty much everywhere. At my job they don't really even list a job until they know who they want. Everyone goes through an informal interview process then go to HR and say hire this person. So they write a job listing identical to the persons qualifications and if someone else applies that would get precedent like a layoff or ex-military they will cancel and relist the position to cause those applicants to no longer be qualified as justification for overlooking them.

Then they shouldn't of made a big point of posting about the job on the main site. Let is show up on CBSi's website while still hiring Dan. By announcing it like a big deal, it looked like it wasn't already a done deal.

 

[JABEE]

This happens pretty much everywhere. At my job they don't really even list a job until they know who they want. Everyone goes through an informal interview process then go to HR and say hire this person. So they write a job listing identical to the persons qualifications and if someone else applies that would get precedent like a layoff or ex-military they will cancel and relist the position to cause those applicants to no longer be qualified as justification for overlooking them.

Even with the Rooney Rule, this is often the case and a minority interview is merely a formality. It does good to get a candidates name out there, but in an industry that isn't as public as the NFL is about the hiring process, that isn't really a solution.

 

[NateDrake]

Agreed. We had every chance of sitting down and talking like adults, without resorting to "war". Journalists of the industry could have looked into all the allegations. They didn't. Most of us chose sides. The "war" got huge and now it drew the attention of actual reporters. So in a way, they might end up doing the work that vg press should have done in the first place.

There was a time to be civil and discuss everything, but then many took the situation as a joke once the "war" began. Journalists are openly mocking people who express concern, anonymous people make smart ass and threatening comments, so the entire situation has lost control. I've written for several sites over the years, attended events, and all that jazz. I'd answer questions given to me. I just no longer understand what people are looking for out of all this.

 

[Gsak]

Apparently, Phil Fish sent this to Michael McWhertor a few minutes ago.

So... I take it he didn't sell Polytron?

 

[unbias]

This GamerGate garbage is not what people should have issues with. People should be talking about the way the system is set up. There should be someone who can write an intelligent piece that doesn't devolve into MRA rhetoric.
There is another side to being wary of ethical questions and having issues with the way games journalism currently works. Right now, no journalist is willing to make those arguments. There is no doubt that there is a problem. It's just that the people making themselves the public face of these issues are anonymous shitheads.
It's disappointing that it is believed there are no problems worthy of inspecting with games journalism because jerks have poisoned the debate. We have had so many opportunities to have this discussion before this Zoe Quinn and other bullshit came out, but no one was really willing to answer. Now there is another excuse not to feel the need to be accountable. Another event to use to rationalize the way things work now.

It's much easier then people think though. Stop giving clicks to sites or people who do this(things you dont like) and dont even give the place a worthy response. Easy to say, ahrd to practice, but it works. If a way of doing business has no value or not enough value to be sustainable that way of action will either become so insignificant that it has no chance of harm to the consumer or it will cease to exist. If you don't want things to gain credence, sometimes completely ignoring it works better then anything, specially when money is involved. These gamegate and noyourshield tags, while maybe some fuzzy thoughts are being shared, just give more attention to the things they supposedly dont like. If they really cared it would be stoptheclicks or something. All this stuff is is posturing because people love to argue on the internet.

The internet has an incredibly short attention span without controversy, so hey, if you don't want the attention span given, don't give the controversy.

 

[Abelian75]

Also, this Jen Frank thing is annoying me. Leave her alone. I don't really know how to stop anonymous internet abuse and conspiracy theorist wanting "proof." Stupid ugly side of the internet.

Seriously. This is really sad to see. God, this whole thing is just depressing. I feel like the sociopaths I first really became acquainted with on the WoW forums a decade ago are finally tearing us all apart.

 

[unbias]

Seriously. This is really sad to see. God, this whole thing is just depressing. I feel like the sociopaths I first really became acquainted with on the WoW forums a decade ago are finally tearing us all apart.

B.net was probably worse back during the Diablo/Star Craft early days, but was also some of the best experiences. The white noise was a lot less though, which made it more peaceful regardless.

 

[Wereroku]

Then they shouldn't of made a big point of posting about the job on the main site. Let is show up on CBSi's website while still hiring Dan. By announcing it like a big deal, it looked like it wasn't already a done deal.

Yeah I don't know what was up with that unless they were told they had to post it. Maybe the video editor job was not assured but they couldn't just mention that while a casual search would show the other one as well. It's a shitty thing to do but we are outside observers so maybe everything went down differently I honestly don't know.

 

[Abelian75]

Apparently, Phil Fish sent this to Michael McWhertor a few minutes ago.

So... I take it he didn't sell Polytron?

If this was all some sort of ARG to sell Phil Fish's new game, I'M SOLD.

It tells you something about how depressing I find this that I genuinely considered the possibility for a good half a second or so.

 

[Abelian75]

B.net was probably worse back during the Diablo/Star Craft early days, but was also some of the best experiences. The white noise was a lot less though, which made it more peaceful regardless.

I guess it really hit me in WoW because identities were more persistent. I couldn't really believe people could be THAT horrible to people once they understood they were people. Alas.

Edit: Sorry for the back to back posting.

 

[Gsak]

If this was all some sort of ARG to sell Phil Fish's new game, I'M SOLD.

It tells you something about how depressing I find this that I genuinely considered the possibility for a good half a second or so.

Independence Day 2: Invasion of the Fez

 

[unbias]

I guess it really hit me in WoW because identities were more persistent. I couldn't really believe people could be THAT horrible to people once they understood they were people. Alas.

Edit: Sorry for the back to back posting.

Haha, ya, I remember people either pretending(I hope) to be online predators looking for young boys on there or they were trolls. Thinking back on it, I probably should have been a lot more creeper'd out as a kid. I think ICQ owes its existence to battle.net I swear

Spoiler

(kidding of course)

.

 

[RadarScope1]

Folks, this thread may be all over the damn place but it's also fucking awesome. Great conversation here. Would like to actively contribute a bit more but I've been busy.

Nice post by The Adder a while back. Like I said in another post, I think of the best things we can do is come out of the closet, so to speak, as gamers IRL. Own the label and show people we're not the charicatures that are showing up on Twitter and elsewhere.

 

[Gsak]

Folks, this thread may be all over the damn place but it's also fucking awesome. Great conversation here. Would like to actively contribute a bit more but I've been busy.

Nice post by The Adder a while back. Like I said in another post, I think of the best things we can do is come out of the closet, so to speak, as gamers IRL. Own the label and show people we're not the charicatures that are showing up on Twitter and elsewhere.

On many posts we kinda disagree, but on this I'm with you 100%.

 

[JackDT]

Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:

https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank

 

[Tetsuo9]

I'm so sad about what's going on with Jenn, even tho I don't know her, I remember her from her EGM 1up days, and watching the harassement she is getting breaks my heart.

https://twitter.com/jennatar/status/507377392344891392

I'm just a bystander in this conflict, but now I can feel just a little bit how it must feel when people are harassing someone important to you.

 

[Arkage]

I think it ought to help to have more institutional awareness of these biases. For instance, the fact is that the applicants in that experiment did have equal transcripts. This means that if we compared the two side-by-side absent information about the race of the applicants, they should look identical to us. It is in the presence of racial information that study participants began to overvalue the transcript accomplishments of the white applicant relative to the black applicant. I do think that a blind application process is a good idea, but even where this is an option this doesn't really help when it comes to evaluating performance for promotions after you have begun hiring more minority candidates. Those biases don't just go away after you hire them! So, I think you'd also have try to make sure that people responsible for both hiring and promotion in your company are aware of how these biases manifest, how they occur at a subconscious level, and try to ameliorate them by being aware of discrepancies in how, say, you interpret the same actions from different people (i.e. this recent topic about discrepancies in women's and men's performance reviews) and doing the work of examining your own thinking.

I wonder to what extent racial minorities are subject to the same biases. I know in some cases you see the same biases, but less pronounced, as you do with white people. Perhaps the simple act of changing the workplace to include more minority candidates will have an effect on that workplace's culture and evaluations of minority candidates over time? The fact that black supervisors were perceived as less competent by white subordinates is problematic, but (I'm hoping) that over time that would cease to subconsciously feel out of the ordinary.

It's interesting because I work in an inner city school district and the vast majority of administration is minority, typically black, all the way up the line. I'm usually not paying attention to school politics, but I wonder if the same kind of bias these studies show also exist in this environment, except obviously it would be discrimination against whites since they're in essence the minority for that microcosm.

 

[Gsak]

Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:

https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank

Dude I saw the thing happen. It was not "GamerGate" it was just some morons. How about supporting Jenn now, accusing (the right) people later?

 

[Deitus]

Apparently, Phil Fish sent this to Michael McWhertor a few minutes ago.

So... I take it he didn't sell Polytron?

I don't normally appreciate Phil's... sense of humor, but I laughed out loud at this. Well played.

 

[Geek]

Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:

https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank

I guess it's just collateral damage in the honorable endeavor of liberating the video game press though!

 

[Scizzy]

Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:

https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank

This was incredibly depressing to read and then I made the mistake of actually clicking on a tweet and had to read assholes crowing about their "victory."

 

[Abelian75]

I guess it's just collateral damage in the honorable endeavor of liberating the video game press though!

Literally everyone who has addressed that here that I can see has referred to this event as sad and/or called for her defense.

I'd spend all night telling people to leave her the fuck alone on twitter if I didn't think it would make things worse.

If you know how to stop awful people being awful, please, tell me the secret. As a person who both spends his recreational time online and works to grow the open web, I've been struggling for around a decade to find a way to believe that this isn't all a lost cause. That doesn't mean I can't also believe that game journalism is rather fucked up and anti-gamer at the moment.

I will admit that I'm rapidly losing interest in pushing the point if it's just going to leave a trail of corpses in its wake.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Ugh. What an awful thing to read.

No nitpicks about indiecade or whatever is worth all that garbage. It just isn't.

 

[charlequin]

Dude I saw the thing happen. It was not "GamerGate" it was just some morons. How about supporting Jenn now, accusing (the right) people later?

Yes, clearly the people we should be worried about in this situation are the slacktivist transparency crusaders who don't want their Quixotic and poorly-researched cause lumped in with the straightforwardly misogynist harassment being dealt out by randoms on twitter under the same hashtag.

 

[Gsak]

Yes, clearly the people we should be worried about in this situation are the slacktivist transparency crusaders who don't want their Quixotic and poorly-researched cause lumped in with the straightforwardly misogynist harassment being dealt out by randoms on twitter under the same hashtag.

Way to go and miss the point. I'll repeat: How about supporting Jenn now, accusing (the right) people later?

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Is it bad that I'm a little afraid to share an excellent piece on this whole affair lest it get spread around and the person in question harassed?

That's pretty messed up I think.

 

[Verger]

Here is Boogie/Francis' latest video on this thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbQk5YqjO0E

Ah, youtube comments are a joy to read as always...

 

[charlequin]

Way to go and miss the point. I'll repeat: How about supporting Jenn now, accusing (the right) people later?

I didn't miss your point, I ignored it because it was bad. The way to support a person hounded by an irrational, spit-flecked, arm-flailing, knee-jerking mob of abusive shitheads is to look at those shitheads and say, unambiguously, "no." Standing there and saying "well, look, I know literally thousands of people are still harassing this person under this hashtag as we speak, but maybe we should stop and make sure we're not accidentally judging the people who whipped the mob up and provoked this whole thing too unfairly?" is beyond perverse. If there are actual leaders of this "movement," then their failure to restrain this behavior speaks to its value. And if there aren't, then we have to judge the effort on the fruits of its labor -- and those fruits are, overwhelmingly, sexist harassment backed by a minimal understanding of the facts.

If you want to prioritize the defense of this absurd movement over objecting to the real harassment of real people, that's your prerogative, but own up to what you're doing.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

 

[Corpekata]

Here is Boogie/Francis' latest video on this thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbQk5YqjO0E

Ah, youtube comments are a joy to read as always...

He's attacking that straw man pretty hard in the beginning. Nice sentiment but seems to be deliberately missing the points of some things.

 

[Gsak]

I didn't miss your point, I ignored it because it was bad. The way to support a person hounded by an irrational, spit-flecked, arm-flailing, knee-jerking mob of abusive shitheads is to look at those shitheads and say, unambiguously, "no." Standing there and saying "well, look, I know literally thousands of people are still harassing this person under this hashtag as we speak, but maybe we should stop and make sure we're not accidentally judging the people who whipped the mob up and provoked this whole thing too unfairly?" is beyond perverse. If there are actual leaders of this "movement," then their failure to restrain this behavior speaks to its value. And if there aren't, then we have to judge the effort on the fruits of its labor -- and those fruits are, overwhelmingly, sexist harassment backed by a minimal understanding of the facts.

If you want to prioritize the defense of this absurd movement over objecting to the real harassment of real people, that's your prerogative, but own up to what you're doing.

Please pm me.

 

[Verger]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

I thought Jenn said the Guardian was all cool with her stuff and that they were the ones who took out any disclosure she made (their legal team said so or such). Unless I'm getting confused with someone else.

 

[Corpekata]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

No. They actually told her not to disclose it, as they did not think it warranted disclosure. It was in her original draft. She left, was not fired.

 

[JackDT]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

She says there is no issue at all with the guardian, that's just a narrative they invented.

 

[Gsak]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

Fuckheads harassed her on Twitter. I sincerely hope that she will change her mind.

 

[Derphoof]

Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:

https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank

This twitter "activism" is such a confusing mess at this point.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Fuckheads harassed her on Twitter. I sincerely hope that she will change her mind.

so is she leaving writing or is she leaving twitter? cuz the latter is an Unambiguously Good Thing

 

[charlequin]

sorry for the driveby, but has jenn decided she's had enough and is done, or did her employer let her go due to this stuff?

e: like, I heard chatter that the guardian had issues with her not disclosing financial ties to quinn but dumptruck of salt and all that

The reality of the situation is that Jenn's original article explicitly laid out her precise relationship to Quinn (including her support of Quinn's Patreon) and the Guardian's editors asked that she remove it, since it was beyond journalistic expectations and not relevant to the topic. After the harassment started she asked them to add a disclaimer anyway, and said on twitter that she was done writing about games, for the Guardian or anyone else. Nobody was fired and nothing about the event affected Jenn's relationship with the Guardian or any other outlet except inasmuch as she chooses not to write in the future.

How little resemblance there is between what actually happened and the story that people are already promoting about these events should establish with some finality exactly how far from fact-based this entire crusade has been.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

The reality of the situation is that Jenn's original article explicitly laid out her precise relationship to Quinn (including her support of Quinn's Patreon) and the Guardian's editors asked that she remove it, since it was beyond journalistic expectations and not relevant to the topic. After the harassment started she asked them to add a disclaimer anyway, and said on twitter that she was done writing about games, for the Guardian or anyone else. Nobody was fired and nothing about the event affected Jenn's relationship with the Guardian or any other outlet except inasmuch as she chooses not to write in the future.

How little resemblance there is between what actually happened and the story that people are already promoting about these events should establish with some finality exactly how far from fact-based this entire crusade has been.

bummer. shame to hear that

e: it occurs to me that twitter has finally come to the point that people are preemptively attacking each other based on hashtags. i truly and utterly pity people that have to use that site for the line of work they take part in. I also have pity for those who choose to use it, but its the sort of pity that comes from looking at people making a series of self destructive life choices.

 

[JackDT]

Stop writing about games, after she became the face of 'gaming corruption' an in international publication.

Ironically she's never really a 'journalist' - she almost entirely writes long personal stories about games or her life and games.

 

[Gsak]

so is she leaving writing or is she leaving twitter? cuz the latter is an Unambiguously Good Thing

Leaving game industry as far as I can tell.

 

[Abelian75]

so is she leaving writing or is she leaving twitter? cuz the latter is an Unambiguously Good Thing

Tragically, writing but possibly not Twitter? The worst possible result.

This really does suck. From everything I can see she is the type of person I wanted to see more of in games writing. She's essentially tweeting out #notallgamers even as she's rage-quitting the industry. If that's the type of person getting ousted by all this, there's not even any point to being right.

 

[Tetsuo9]

I don't know what you're reading, but if you read her twitter it's clearly the former. She's already talked about the fact that she did disclose but Guardian legal had her take it out of the final draft.

She decided to talk about it after the clowns claimed victory on the grounds that her bio said ex-writer.

 

[NateDrake]

Stop writing about games, after she became the face of 'gaming corruption' an in international publication.

Ironically she's never really a 'journalist' - she almost entirely writes long personal stories about games or her life and games.

What was her corrupt act?

 

[Abelian75]

she almost entirely writes long personal stories about games or her life and games.

That just sounds like the WORST.

Wait.

Edit: Meh, that was obnoxiously snippy, sorry. Just frustrated and feeling complicit in all this.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Whatever small infractions there may or may not have been (and I doubt there was) is definitely not worth damaging people the way it seemingly has.

I follow several freelancers who seem just broken over this whole thing. It's extraordinarily sad to see.