-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
- Start date
- Status
Inflammable Slinky
Member
yeah going through her twitter history, she actually is talking about the whole gamergate thing in a pretty even handed manner. like, nuanced to the point of non-Twitteresque. i've never really read much of her stuff but its freakishly thoughtful for 140 characters.
unfortunately im pretty sure her departure is gonna be used to demonize people with the gamergate tag, who will in turn use such a reaction to demonize the sj advocates, who in turn...
its an ouroboros of profanity, caps lock and exclamation points. what an utter shame
unfortunately im pretty sure her departure is gonna be used to demonize people with the gamergate tag, who will in turn use such a reaction to demonize the sj advocates, who in turn...
its an ouroboros of profanity, caps lock and exclamation points. what an utter shame
How is there no competition for twitter? Is it simply because there is more eyes on twitter so people want to be there? Because from all this shit to the doxxing of a hell of a lot of people with-in the last year, you would think people would back away. I guess the need for social media is so great for your livelihood, specifically twitter, so you just have to deal with the devil?
This whole thing tonight with Jenn Frank is sad, I really don't get the argument those people are using regarding the corrupt image and I know it's the same people that are harassing her. It's really sad and mind boggling. I don't have an answer for how it can be stopped but I wish there was a way to stop the harassment to everyone that is getting harassed.
There's no hope, sorry. The people who are actively clamoring for some nebulous change by engaging in conspiracy theory and slander are going to continue to do so, because they're actually uneducated about any real issue. They thrive on hearsay and shitty YouTube videos by men who won't publish their real names. They want to be part of some crusade, a collective persecution that doesn't actually read the good writing that people like Jenn do. They just want casualties, regardless of the fact that people who are willing to listen, engage and be respectful are the ones affected.
So fuck everything.
Yep. At every point people choose to escalate.
I have a lot of sympathy for Jenn. But I have no sympathy for some of the people saying "oh no poor Jenn!" Civilians get hurt in wars, not just soldiers - we know this. But people on both sides fan the flames of war then act upset when this sort of predictable stuff happens.
The same person tweeting at Jenn saying "oh no this is terrible!" is tweeting at that Alex guy saying "yeah, you tell those dumb nerd fuckboys off!"
People keep saying that this is a war, that it's with or against, that it's kill or be killed. Then the person standing near them gets killed. Shocking. The person who was much nicer and more thoughtful than they'll ever be. War has casualties - who knew?
I guess the problem is that we aren't warring sufficiently hard enough. Redouble your efforts troops!
Inflammable Slinky
Member
...
please tell me youre just quoting this mindset and not actually espousing that this is in any way a "war"
because if you are I think you need to take a break from the internet.
bishopcruz
Member
So what happened with Jenn Frank? Been away for a bit, and apparently I missed it.
Ya, I guess I mean lock-in makes the most obvious sense, I was just expecting:
Myspace->Facebook
Digg->Reddit
Twitter->???
But twitter didnt get it. Disappointed, cause I honestly cant stand what twitter has reduced communication to. It even effects facebook, where my colleagues(one over 50 nd a lot of 35+) have decided to start doing hashtag stuff and shortening their sentences out, and even more willing to make drive by posts on facebook, and they dont even understand what hastags are used for.
=\ I hate twitter
She's left the industry. :<
Scrolling through my timeline earlier today was about as low as I've seen it get.
I'm sorry if this gets ranty, but anyone who seriously cares about "Games Journalism™" right now needs to take a few weeks to actually form legitimate issues and what they're going to do to stop it. All I'm seeing right now is a group only organized around the idea of harassing those at the fringe of the gaming press. This whole thing started on the basis of a lie, and has metastasized into some horrible monster flailing around trying to hurt as many people as possible. There is no goal, just a rallying cry of misdirected anger. This will sound harsh, but I think anyone who says "But I'm not x, y, or z, I just care about corruption." is not actually helping anyone right now. You're attaching yourself to a movement that is actively hurting people. You're giving it a veneer of credibility. I'm just incredibly saddened because what I've seen happen today is the actual goal of so much of it. To implicitly agree with them is to give credibility to a movement that says it's trying to make "gaming" a better place, but in reality is making it so much worse.
I use the war analogy as an analogy and because people write screeds about how we're at war with this and that.
Of course it's not a war. I mean...I guess it's a Twitter war?
My point is this: when most people involved choose to escalate the situation it becomes worse and more dangerous, not just for them but for people who don't deserve this stuff. That is predictable. People who play, write about or make games should be able to understand that. That is less hard to grasp than Skyrim.
Edit: "Am I escalating?" is a question everyone should ask themselves.
Quote
Member
For your analogy to remotely work there would need to be two sides actively trying to destroy each other.
Last time I checked only one side is attacking and harassing the other. Is terrorism the better silly analogy for you to make?
IrishNinja
Member
whole lotta projection going on in the first paragraph, i don't even know what to make of the 2nd. oh jennatar, you were a good soldier with just 30 days & a wake-up ahead of you...RIP in peace
call_kotaku
Member
But not caring about that is the definition of being an extremist, and that's what's driving this. Both sides have legitimate issues but various degrees of cyber-bullying has pretty much been the de-facto method of discussion for this whole thing. People on Twitter should be made aware that things that seem fairly insubstantial, and things that seem cathartic in the short term, all have pretty nasty consequences when viewed broadly across a large number of people.
Totally agree with you. The biggest shame is, those that can actually stop this mess will never pay attention to any such arguments. This whole thing is so out of control with both ends escalating (one way more than the other, obviously, but certainly some on both sides). Even if all those under attacked just stopped and ignored all this shit, it would still happen. At this point, I can't blame anyone that would just up and leave the industry. It seems like the only sane solution. Maybe you can close your twitter account and close down all the comments on your work, but even then I'd imagine it would only give incentive for some of the worse attackers to hunt you down in other (potentially even scarier) ways.
BobbyRobby
Member
Sad that cool writers are getting hurt by this.
He's probably referring to the Leigh Alexander article telling gamers that 'gamers' are over. She did end it by saying she has an army and is at war.
He's probably referring to the Leigh Alexander article telling gamers that 'gamers' are over. She did end it by saying she has an army and is at war.
Kadayi
Banned
That's all well and good, but the threads about gamers, and people who choose to self identify as gamers seeing a large scale effort by the gaming press to demonize them off of the actions of a tiny minority.
Haven't been keeping up with this thread. Here's some stuff:
Dunno if this got passed around. Zoe Quinn is planning on starting some kind of--I dunno, is "support group" the word?--thing.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/507384079965110272
More details on her Twitter.
Leigh Alexander is going to be on Grantland's Girls in Hoodies podcast this week, I expect it'll be some extended thoughts on this harassment nonsense from Leigh and the host ladies. They play games but it's more a general pop culture pod than a specifically games pod. I'll probably bring it up once it happens / I listen to it.
That legal fund is super dumb I can't even begin to articulate. What a scam.
Tim Schafer continues to slay knuckleheads.
Carry on.
Dunno if this got passed around. Zoe Quinn is planning on starting some kind of--I dunno, is "support group" the word?--thing.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/507384079965110272
More details on her Twitter.
Leigh Alexander is going to be on Grantland's Girls in Hoodies podcast this week, I expect it'll be some extended thoughts on this harassment nonsense from Leigh and the host ladies. They play games but it's more a general pop culture pod than a specifically games pod. I'll probably bring it up once it happens / I listen to it.
That legal fund is super dumb I can't even begin to articulate. What a scam.
Tim Schafer continues to slay knuckleheads.
Carry on.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Pretty unfortunate if you ask me, honestly. It's not something I've heard people talk about a lot but I think that this piece expresses my feelings on the way the "war" has been conducted.
http://geekessays.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/you-cant-build-inclusion-on-exclusionary-language/
This is not me saying "both sides are wrong" bullshit, but when we're talking about the issue at play here, belittling people who disagree with you, even if they may deserve it, is counterproductive.
Petrae
Member
Paul Tassi, a Forbes contributor, also mentioned that game journalists didn't want this war in an article about the topic. Ms. Alexander's comment added to the rhetoric.
Calling this a "war" is over the top, but the comparisons-- one side claiming victory, career casualties, etc-- are apt. It will be interesting to see how things escalate from here, as the press side is quite irate while the GamerGate side continues its assault.
I'd love to see cooler heads prevail at some point, especially now that this has spilled over from a social media skirmish to most unfortunate real-life consequences away from the keyboard. Things, in my opinion, should never have reached this point... but now I have no idea how it ends as we have two very angry groups clashing and showing no signs of backing down.
This thing has blown up so much that I can't mute it all on my Twitter feed. So much contempt. So much anger. More harsh generalizations, on both sides. It's a very dark time, with lots of regret to go around.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Congratz #Gamergate.
With Jenn gone clearly the world of serious videogame journalism is a better one. Well done everybody, you won. Hooray. You cleansed the corrupted heart of video games and it now shines brighter than ever.
Achievment Unlocked - Saved Videogames 10G
With Jenn gone clearly the world of serious videogame journalism is a better one. Well done everybody, you won. Hooray. You cleansed the corrupted heart of video games and it now shines brighter than ever.
Achievment Unlocked - Saved Videogames 10G
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I just wish more writing on the issue was like this piece right here. It shows compassion for everyone involved and speculates on where the rage might be coming from.
http://ellaguro.blogspot.com/2014/09/on-gamers-and-identity.html
http://ellaguro.blogspot.com/2014/09/on-gamers-and-identity.html
As someone who has been playing video games and enjoying the hobby for a good majority of my life, this is so embarrassing. Reading the types of things people are doing/saying to actual people, mostly behind anonymity like cowards, is infuriating.
There is no explanation to defend how these women are being treated. For the first time in my thirty year life, even after being teased/picked on/made fun of for the dorky ass things I love, I feel embarrassed to be considered a "gamer".
Total bummer.
There is no explanation to defend how these women are being treated. For the first time in my thirty year life, even after being teased/picked on/made fun of for the dorky ass things I love, I feel embarrassed to be considered a "gamer".
Total bummer.
wonderdung
Member
You could try this article... both sides apparently hate it which probably means it's balanced: http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201409032102-0024126
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
There aren't "two sides" to this anymore. It's like a bunch of city states, some with a vaguely common interest, some just want to trade and some just want me to destroy the barbarian camp near them. And some just want me to threaten and insult another city state
I've been playingtoo much not enough Civ
I've been playing
Yes, It's not about which side is more wrong, if there are even distinct sides. It's about individuals who, when faced with the choice to escalate or disarm, choose to escalate. Way too many people are doing that, and those are also the people who get the most retweets and interest. (Negative and positive)
For example that Faraci tweet about gamers being worse than ISIS. I mean, not only is it incredibly insulting to the families of people killed by ISIS (or really any thinking person) but all it does is make things worse. It's purposely pouring gas on a fire, for no reason other than to get attention and feel self-righteous.
There's no way the answer to "will this tweet makes things better?" is yes for that. Way too many instances of that sort of thing.
Edit: About my "war" talk. I used that talk because people on both "sides" use that talk. A bunch of my relatives fought in actual wars - this is not a war, of course.
Edit2:
Yeah, really good piece.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
But being as an asshole as a city-state has consequences in the game.
Being an asshole on twitter seems to have none. Which is the problem.
IrishNinja
Member
this isn't entirely true, to be fair - have you seen the number of people who've lost their jobs over dumb shit said on twitter? not related to this particular mess, but it does happen, fairly often too
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Yeah, that's true of course. But this whole thing becomes a bit more bearable if you think off it as an incredibly dumb game of Civ.
Your describing a mob. When there are riots, everyone gets involved. Twitter is the battleground.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Just let me know who Montezuma is so I can hate him with my entire soul.
This article does nothing to dispel the lies about Zoe Quinn. And Milo Yiannopoulos, the guy spreading the garbage conspiracy image, is this guy:
@Nero
I'll say this for @EverydaySexism: the unintentional comedy of it is glorious. Here's a recent retweet:
@sailor_jerry So after a devastating therapy appt today I was standing outside hospital, in tears, texting my wife.. And I got cat called. #everydaysexism
Glorious comedy! And his article is titled "Lying Greedy Promiscuous Feminist Bullies tearing the gaming industry apart." Which repeats the same lies about Zoe Quinn. It doesn't even rise to the level of drivel.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Don't even talk to me about Montezuma. Bastard betrayed me after we were friends for more than 500 years. I went to war for him for god's sake. Fuck this guy. Ghandi never did that to me.
It's obvious for some time that this campaign wasn't really about helping anything. It's always been about hate. It's always been about hatred of women. It's always been based in bullshit conspiracy theories. It's a force of nature that will only come back again to take more with them. That's the saddest thing about this all. There is really no end in site. Just a lull every so often.
Petrae
Member
It sure does. My final paper for English class last semester was on this very topic. If social media users share their real-life identities, make it known who they work for, and behave out of line to where people flood the employer with complaints? Yeah, they're gone.
Too many people fail to understand how social media works... until it's too late, and ridiculous First Amendment / free speech defenses fail.
LOL. Sums up this whole shit show.
Seriously though, Twitter is just ruining communication. It is by virtue of its very design, set up in such a way that essentially requires conversation to be stripped of all nuance and substantive discourse, leaving only the most base, inflammatory, only-speaking-in-absolutes rhetoric possible, regardless of subject. Both "sides" see, and offer, no empathy, there is no possibility of gray area. Absolutes and generalizations help no one.
This is also not the answer. Unless they genuinely wish to not have an audience, in which case; fair enough, respect their wishes. But if they do wish to have an audience (which is why they are on Twitter to begin with as opposed to a more personal form of communication), just shutting everyone off (or at least everyone you disagree with) would just make people angrier as they would feel even moreso that they are not being heard, or can't express a dissenting opinion. They would likely seek other (most certainly even shittier) means of being heard. This is not a good idea.
I feel a lot of the backlash probably comes directly from this, actually. A lot of people probably feel very marginalized and generalized when writers/personalities have stood on a one-directional soap box of gaming blog op-eds, or their (or their friends') large Twitter audiences, and that has clearly resulted in a massive amount of anger from people that becomes manifest in ugly comments sections and Twitter harassment.
charlequin
Banned
This is an amazingly terrible standard by which to judge on absolutely any subject.
Squidofman
Member
Stop calling it a war. That implies some kind of clarity of purpose.
It's games writers struggling to reconcile "journalistic ethics" and the realities of entertainment/trade press. It's passionate op-ed that could have been worded better. It's a widespread inability to read a headline before commenting/tweeting, before even attempted to parse meaning from editorial. It's hyper-defensiveness causing violent outrage at things that should at worst be chuckled at and ignored. It's opportunistic incitement of a mob to further your own sick ego. It's writers sick of quietly taking abuse year after year for doing their job. It's frustrated young people lashing out at...something. It's a cynical generation who would rather take the word of anonymous conspiracy theorists than people staking their bylines and reputation on their work. It's games writers hitting back when they should know better.
It's not a war. It's a lot of things. Which is why it's so heart-breaking to see it all thrown in the same mix and spun around until it starts costing people their fucking jobs.
It's games writers struggling to reconcile "journalistic ethics" and the realities of entertainment/trade press. It's passionate op-ed that could have been worded better. It's a widespread inability to read a headline before commenting/tweeting, before even attempted to parse meaning from editorial. It's hyper-defensiveness causing violent outrage at things that should at worst be chuckled at and ignored. It's opportunistic incitement of a mob to further your own sick ego. It's writers sick of quietly taking abuse year after year for doing their job. It's frustrated young people lashing out at...something. It's a cynical generation who would rather take the word of anonymous conspiracy theorists than people staking their bylines and reputation on their work. It's games writers hitting back when they should know better.
It's not a war. It's a lot of things. Which is why it's so heart-breaking to see it all thrown in the same mix and spun around until it starts costing people their fucking jobs.
Do you have any stuff I can look at to read up on this issue?
My comment has gotten some likes for comparing internetaristocrat to TMZ or Giorgio A. Tsuokalos (Ancient Aliens). Nice. Because, really no one should be referencing internetaristocrat.
I wasn't aware of this part :C, this helps to explain a lot tonight.
Just a link to one Jenn Frank's wilder pieces on Sex and Second Life, in memorandum: http://infinitelives.net/downloards/all_the_spaces.pdf
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Wow, I had no idea about this Jenn Frank news. Yeesh.
- Status