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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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andymcc

Banned
This shit is just getting tragic.

Jenn Frank was always a pleasure to read. Her and I had a few twitter interactions in the past and she was always very funny and super nice. When will this be enough to satiate the proverbial bloodlust of these dudes? Actually, don't answer that.
 

Nephtis

Member
Is Jenn really gone though, or is it more like an extended vacation until all of this boils over?

I've not heard of anyone ever leaving the industry for good (journalism-wise), but I do welcome being corrected if I am wrong.
 

Brakke

Banned
Is Jenn really gone though, or is it more like an extended vacation until all of this boils over?

I've not heard of anyone ever leaving the industry for good (journalism-wise), but I do welcome being corrected if I am wrong.

The Sess mostly walked away. He still works in games and appears on KROQ in LA occasionally to provide context on big game stuff (Twitch acquisition recently), but he's definitely distances himself from the melee of day-in, day-out punditry.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
The Sess mostly walked away. He still works in games and appears on KROQ in LA occasionally to provide context on big game stuff (Twitch acquisition recently), but he's definitely distances himself from the melee of day-in, day-out punditry.
That's more a function of being in the consulting business than quitting journalism/writing/videos. It's not like Jeff Green or N'Gai or the various other people quit in protest - they just can't be public faces since they are essentially doing mock reviews for game companies now.
 

Nephtis

Member
The Sess mostly walked away. He still works in games and appears on KROQ in LA occasionally to provide context on big game stuff (Twitch acquisition recently), but he's definitely distances himself from the melee of day-in, day-out punditry.

Right, but he's still involved with the industry.

judging by the sorts of statements she's making via twitter, this is more than an extended vacation.

That could be attributed to frustration... Perhaps I'm just hoping she won't be gone altogether.
 

Brakke

Banned
That's more a function of being in the consulting business than quitting journalism/writing/videos. It's not like Jeff Green or N'Gai or the various other people quit in protest - they just can't be public faces since they are essentially doing mock reviews for game companies now.

You have the sequence backward. Sessler chose to move to consulting in part because he wanted to get out of public-facing punditry. Catching gamer-vitriol was taking a toll on his soul.
 

LordJim

Member
You have the sequence backward. Sessler chose to move to consulting in part because he wanted to get out of public-facing punditry. Catching gamer-vitriol was taking a toll on his soul.

I thought struggling to get a free PS4 was what took the toll
 
You probably realize this but that is a really bad heuristic. Anyway. I linked that same article earlier as it covers most of the territory quickly without getting too into the weeds, but it's been since pointed out that the article includes a conspiracy image smearing Jenn Frank. In fact, this may be part of what's driven her to quit.

I hope she doesn't quit. She pointed out on her blog that she did actually reveal her connection to Zoe Quinn in the article draft but it was removed by Guardian editors. So all along she's been clean and just got caught up in all of this unfairly.

Not that I'll agree with many of her perspectives, but the focus is corruption in journalism and she seems like collateral damage which is really unfortunate.

The Al'Jazeera article was mostly fine, though. Generally crowdsourced articles like this are awful but the standard has been dragged pretty low over the last week. It's unfortunate that they inaccurately said Zoe's ex accused her of trying to advance her career in that way, which he didn't.
 

Corto

Member
I hope she doesn't quit. She pointed out on her blog that she did actually reveal her connection to Zoe Quinn in the article draft but it was removed by Guardian editors. So all along she's been clean and just got caught up in all of this unfairly.

Not that I'll agree with many of her perspectives, but the focus is corruption in journalism and she seems like collateral damage which is really unfortunate.

The Al'Jazeera article was mostly fine, though. Generally crowdsourced articles like this are awful but the standard has been dragged pretty low over the last week. It's unfortunate that they inaccurately said Zoe's ex accused her of trying to advance her career in that way, which he didn't.

Perhaps not directly but there was a clear intention of smearing her personal and professional character disclosing details that should be kept in a private sphere. The title of his blog post is enough proof of that: "Some Closing Words for the Future Lovers, Friends and Business Associates of Zoe Quinn"
 
If it's any consolation to everyone, Mattie Brice is unlikely to stay out of the field for long, at least if her reaction to Re/Action is anything to go by.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
You have the sequence backward. Sessler chose to move to consulting in part because he wanted to get out of public-facing punditry. Catching gamer-vitriol was taking a toll on his soul.
Did he make his reason for leaving public? I just assumed he was part of the Rev3 layoffs that happened back then.

I suppose Russ Pitts choosing to leave Polygon might count, assuming he chooses not to go back to writing about games. But that's more a function of Polygon becoming a place for troll reviews and editorials than anything else.
 

Zaph

Member
It seems like every time I wake up, a new person has been viciously attacked.

Jenn Frank? Jenn fucking Frank? She's like the nicest person.

What is the end game here? We stick with faceless AAA preview coverage where there's still an element of underhanded dealings, but it happens in corporate offices out of sight from the trolls?

There is absolutely a problem with certain elements of the enthusiast press and dev community as well as audience contempt, but it seems so pathetically small compared to the distress this is causing.
 

Myggen

Member
Man, the Jenn Frank stuff is a fucking bummer. She has always seemed like the nicest person and I've always enjoyed her work. Hope she changes her mind.

Did he make his reason for leaving public? I just assumed he was part of the Rev3 layoffs that happened back then.

I suppose Russ Pitts choosing to leave Polygon might count, assuming he chooses not to go back to writing about games. But that's more a function of Polygon becoming a place for troll reviews and editorials than anything else.

AFAIK Pitts didn't choose to leave, he was let go because Polygon didn't need a features editor anymore (they more or less dropped longform articles).
 

marrec

Banned
This is also not the answer. Unless they genuinely wish to not have an audience, in which case; fair enough, respect their wishes. But if they do wish to have an audience (which is why they are on Twitter to begin with as opposed to a more personal form of communication), just shutting everyone off (or at least everyone you disagree with) would just make people angrier as they would feel even moreso that they are not being heard, or can't express a dissenting opinion. They would likely seek other (most certainly even shittier) means of being heard. This is not a good idea.

I feel a lot of the backlash probably comes directly from this, actually. A lot of people probably feel very marginalized and generalized when writers/personalities have stood on a one-directional soap box of gaming blog op-eds, or their (or their friends') large Twitter audiences, and that has clearly resulted in a massive amount of anger from people that becomes manifest in ugly comments sections and Twitter harassment.

Nah, the audience they want isn't on Twitter actively trying to hate-fuck them out of the business. Passing a list around with a few dozen or so of the worst offenders would clean up a lot of timelines and if those people feel slighted by not being heard anymore then they can go shout it from the mountain tops... but hopefully no body will hear them because they have nothing constructive to say.
 

Riposte

Member
Are there tools for twitter to share blocked people automatically? Like if user A blocks someone, user B and C automatically block them? How about one that blocks everyone following someone?
 

Platy

Member
Supporting a kickstarter is now reason to get attacked ?

Do these people know that journalists like .... do shopping and watch movies and are like normal people, right ?
 

Noaloha

Member
Are there tools for twitter to share blocked people automatically? Like if user A blocks someone, user B and C automatically block them? How about one that blocks everyone following someone?

Like this?

iiwFpUmpLLx54.JPG


www.blocktogether.org

Edit: beatened
 

Myggen

Member
Supporting a kickstarter is now reason to get attacked ?

Do these people know that journalists like .... do shopping and watch movies and are like normal people, right ?

The shits who are attacking people on Twitter lost perspective a long while ago. Anything's a reason to get attacked by these guys. People should go read Rogert Ebert's rules on how to be a critic, he'd be considered corrupt by a lot of these people.

Also, I feel the need to quote Charlequin's post, which is fantastic.

I didn't miss your point, I ignored it because it was bad. The way to support a person hounded by an irrational, spit-flecked, arm-flailing, knee-jerking mob of abusive shitheads is to look at those shitheads and say, unambiguously, "no." Standing there and saying "well, look, I know literally thousands of people are still harassing this person under this hashtag as we speak, but maybe we should stop and make sure we're not accidentally judging the people who whipped the mob up and provoked this whole thing too unfairly?" is beyond perverse. If there are actual leaders of this "movement," then their failure to restrain this behavior speaks to its value. And if there aren't, then we have to judge the effort on the fruits of its labor -- and those fruits are, overwhelmingly, sexist harassment backed by a minimal understanding of the facts.

If you want to prioritize the defense of this absurd movement over objecting to the real harassment of real people, that's your prerogative, but own up to what you're doing.
 
Supporting a kickstarter is now reason to get attacked ?

Do these people know that journalists like .... do shopping and watch movies and are like normal people, right ?

What Kickstarter are we referring to? Not that it's ever a valid reason to attack people, just curious what it is.
 

Platy

Member
The shits who are attacking people on Twitter lost perspective a long while ago. Anything's a reason to get attacked by these guys. People should go read Rogert Ebert's rules on how to be a critic, he'd be considered corrupt by a lot of these people.

Basicaly the Guardian tweet from this dude :
(start from the bottom and go up)

uAYJlPW.png
 

Myggen

Member
Basicaly the Guardian tweet from this dude :
(start from the bottom and go up)

http://i.imgur.com/uAYJlPW.png[/IMG[/QUOTE]

Pretty much. I get people who want as much disclosure as possible when someone's doing a review (still, I don't really think Kickstarter or Patreon is relevant here either, but that's my opinion), but when you're writing a column or an op-ed? It's like the most rabid of the #gamergate crowd have never read a newspaper, or any other form of entertainment journalism. To disclose something so minor has never been the norm in any form of journalism (can you even imagine how many politicians a political reporter for The New York Times knows? Or how many showrunners and actors Alan Sepinwall knows?), and it's insane that this shit has blown up to a lot of people screaming "CORRUPTION!" when someone doesn't disclose here. And yes, I know there's more level-headed people who support the message behind #gamergate, but I'm talking about the loud minority who's ruining it for everybody here.

There's problems with game journalism, but they're tiny compared to the fucking witchhunt that's going on now. Also, I'm still of the opinion that Kotaku outright banning Patreon for their journalists is an absolute laughable decision and neither Schreier or Totilo have given a good reason for doing so.
 

alstein

Member
Are there tools for twitter to share blocked people automatically? Like if user A blocks someone, user B and C automatically block them? How about one that blocks everyone following someone?

Just wait till you get false positives- such a tool won't work. Also all it would take is one troll to jack it up.

This isn't even mentioning the hiveminding that this would create. Even if it did work, you'd just see both camps blocking a ton of people.

This is why I'm very reluctant to block anyone for their opinions (I've only done it to one person over this)
 

Kelas

The Beastie Boys are the first hip hop group in years to have something to say
Well this whole thing just keeps going to new levels of rotten and stupid. Seems to show how easily a mob can be whipped up by some minor "controversy" presented to them as some personal injustice against them, or as a terrible wrong that must be righted immediately and warrants personal attacks against the wrong-doer.
 

alstein

Member
Well this whole thing just keeps going to new levels of rotten and stupid. Seems to show how easily a mob can be whipped up by some minor "controversy" presented to them as some personal injustice against them, or as a terrible wrong that must be righted immediately and warrants personal attacks against the wrong-doer.

Welcome to the internet era- and news/opinions you agree with.

This is our future, and it sucks. It's not just MRAs vs SJWs, it's everywhere in our politics in general these days. This is just the same shit , different platform.
 
How is this gamersgate thing not just making the gaming community look worse? It's like trying to convince someone that you're not violent by punching them in the face.
 

Marsyas

Banned
This #gamergate and #notyourshield movement is clearly driven by misogyny and similar emotions. It’s very thinly veiled. They just hijack issues that exist in games journalism (issues that actually may or may not be relevant at all) to bully female journalists and game creators and the people who stand beside them.

I really wish Twitter would hand out short bans to people who harass other users.

EDIT: and this #DescribeAGamerIn4Words nonsense is driven by a whole other set of resentments.
 

Riposte

Member
Just wait till you get false positives- such a tool won't work. Also all it would take is one troll to jack it up.

This isn't even mentioning the hiveminding that this would create. Even if it did work, you'd just see both camps blocking a ton of people.

This is why I'm very reluctant to block anyone for their opinions (I've only done it to one person over this)

I don't think such a tool would be best used by everyone. Ideally, you share your blocklist with a very small group of friends. Moreover, it should be easy to enough to manage a shared blocklist, such as opting out depending on the individual.

I don't actually post on twitter though, because I have little respect for it as a medium outside the people with fame (relative to their communities) who choose post there. From that point of view, false positives of unknowns doesn't seem like much of a loss. I think that is less scary proposition than whatever is driving people to quit their jobs.

EDIT: Curious, I went onto 4chan's /v/ to see if I could find a thread/posts related to Jenn Frank, but surprisingly found almost nothing. Maybe they are back to moderating them?
 

Myggen

Member
How is this gamersgate thing not just making the gaming community look worse?

It is. Even if it started out as something else, which I'm honestly not sure it did, it has been hijacked by the fucking extremist MRA crowd. #gamergate is such a small issue compared to the disgusting abuse that it has turned into now that everyone else should move away from it. Doesn't mean that you can't question ethics in games journalism, but the #gamergate "movement" has turned into fucking poison.
 

Lime

Member
Good job you fucking cretins. Now Mattie Brice has openly quitted this cesspit. I sincerely and with all of my heart hate video games culture and the fact that people still dismiss and thereby allow all of this bullshit that actually hurt people who haven't even done anything other than being a woman.
 

LordJim

Member
I don't think such a tool would be best used by everyone. Ideally, you share your blocklist with a very small group of friends. Moreover, it should be easy to enough to manage a shared blocklist, such as opting out depending on the individual.

I don't actually post on twitter though, because I have little respect for it as a medium outside the people with fame (relative to their communities) who choose post there. From that point of view, false positives of unknowns doesn't seem like much of a loss. I think that is less scary proposition than whatever is driving people to quit their jobs.

EDIT: Curious, I went onto 4chan's /v/ to see if I could find a thread/posts related to Jenn Frank, but surprisingly found almost nothing. Maybe they are back to moderating them?

Not really, mods either delete whole threads/autosage or nothing.
 

Lime

Member
For people who don't get why Gamergate is in principle flawed

Why No One Will Address Your Perfectly Reasonable Concerns

before I get too much alcohol in me, I have to write a quick thing about the #gamergate kerfluffle from my own perspective, to give you an idea of how it might appear to be failing in the eyes of people like myself. I won’t be talking about any of the “actual issues” here or in replies, and as far as I can tell, by refusing to do so, I am doing exactly what is expected.

the first thing I saw happening, before I even saw the hashtag, was several of the women I follow on Twitter (and several that I don’t) being harassed, threatened, and generally made to feel incredibly ill. this was the first wave of attackers, the troll regiment.

it wasn’t until most of them had already been blocked or ignored that the second wave appeared - the Activists with Really Genuine Concerns About Corruption in the Video Game Industry - asking mostly-genuine questions to those very same women who had just been terrorized.

"why don’t you want to have a rational discussion about this?" they would say, after being told to "fuck off" by various people who were now adrenaline-drunk after wondering whether they were safe in their own homes. "we just want this movement to get media attention," they would say, while simultaneously ignoring the threats of physical violence that had come before, or outright denying their existence, or blaming their victims for manufacturing them.

in this sense, #gamergate has been successful. they have succeeded in silencing women by making it impossible to tell whether their next email, or twitter mention, or phone call will be from someone who will make them fear for their lives; and by doing so, they can claim that their cause is just, because no one will answer their real questions.

as a movement, it doesn’t look like anything.

http://kermix.tumblr.com/post/96594562794/why-no-one-will-address-your-perfectly-reasonable
 

LordJim

Member
Yes, an organized attack to make everyone feel afraid and unable to say anything but fuck off to other posters.
Cause it is so hard to distinguish between posters and every negative tweet may be a threat to personal safety.

The exaggeration game is on full force.
 

marrec

Banned
Yes, an organized attack to make everyone feel afraid and unable to say anything but fuck off to other posters.
Cause it is so hard to distinguish between posters and every negative tweet may be a threat to personal safety.

The exaggeration game is on full force.

Hmm... I suppose the question is two fold:

1) Do you think that there is a group of people on twitter who're using #GamerGate as an excuse to freely attack people they dislike (in this case, mostly women).

2) Do you think those attacks, if true, excuse a bristly response to people with genuine concern?
 

LordJim

Member
Hmm... I suppose the question is two fold:

1) Do you think that there is a group of people on twitter who're using #GamerGate as an excuse to freely attack people they dislike (in this case, mostly women).

2) Do you think those attacks, if true, excuse a bristly response to people with genuine concern?

Something I witnessed in real life, protesting for much more important things:
There will be people who tag along solely for the chaos. And you tend to get tear gassed with them even if they are the minority.
I would hope in an online platform where you are not immediately threatened and have time to think before you write, responses would not be gross oversimplification of an issue or a sweeping generalization.
 

Nephtis

Member
While I find the harassing despicable, I think this whole thing was bound to happen. When journalists take on an ideological stance, their work becomes heavily influenced by it - often in a form of negativity.

When I read an article about a game, I just want to know about the aspects of it - are the graphics nice? How about the gameplay? Is the story well written? Y'know, sort of like how magazines used to be.

Now days, a certain site may take on a particular social subject, and when they (the site) is called out, they're no longer journalists -- they're a blog. They do this often, and they do it when it suits them best. I don't think you can have it both ways. It's precisely because of this, and because some people decided to look down on a group of people (deserved as it may have been), that all this shit happened. Journalism is supposed to be neutral, and in gaming, it's clearly not in a lot of cases.

That's when it stops being journalism to me.
 

marrec

Banned
Something I witnessed in real life, protesting for much more important things:
There will be people who tag along solely for the chaos. And you tend to get tear gassed with them even if they are the minority.
I would hope in an online platform where you are not immediately threatened and have time to think before you write, responses would not be gross oversimplification of an issue or a sweeping generalization.

That online platform is Twitter though. It's not exactly blossoming with nuance or understanding. Rationality is often lost in the abrupt nature of having to ask questions in 140 bit lines... or your rational, long form question is broken up by people telling you to eat a bowl of knives.

It's not the medium to carry a big stick from.

Do people actually believe this? I genuinely want to know.

#gamergate originated in the misogyny of slut shaming and a boiling hatred for Leigh Alexander. "Corruption" is a funny enough buzz word to attach to it, but we've had more discussion in this thread about actual nepotism and corruption in the gaming industry than Twitter has or will ever. It's clear what the 'goal' of this hashtag is.
 

Corpekata

Banned
Do people actually believe this? I genuinely want to know.

Both tags are spearheaded by a community that is presenting an ass like The Internet Aristocrat as fact. So yes. There's some good people in there, but they're serving a shitty agenda.
 

BanGy.nz

Banned
It is. Even if it started out as something else, which I'm honestly not sure it did, it has been hijacked by the fucking extremist MRA crowd.

I'm pretty sure Adam Baldwin started #GamerGate when he was yelling at Zoe last week. So yeah it was MRA bullshit from the start.
 

Riposte

Member
I think #gamergate has completely flown by me. I saw some screencapped tweets and they seemed more positive, a counter to negative image of a gamer. Apparently people are tagging their harassment posts with it though. Doesn't seem like an idea worth saving at this point (hashtags come and go).
 

Verr

Banned
#gamergate originated in the misogyny of slut shaming and a boiling hatred for Leigh Alexander. "Corruption" is a funny enough buzz word to attach to it, but we've had more discussion in this thread about actual nepotism and corruption in the gaming industry than Twitter has or will ever. It's clear what the 'goal' of this hashtag is.

Both tags are spearheaded by a community that is presenting an ass like The Internet Aristocrat as fact. So yes. There's some good people in there, but they're serving a shitty agenda.

I get the idea neither of you understand what it's about. Let someone who actually works in the industry eloborate.

Because I am in support of #gamergate, and trust me, no, hatred of women has nothing to do with this. Keep in mind the people who use the hastag are mostly the same people who donated to TFYC (I know this because I've donated myself and talked to plenty of people on Twitter about it). Donating to a fund to get more women in the industry does not seem like the actions of a misogynist.
 

LordJim

Member
No, that's not what the goal of it is at all. Let someone who actually works in the industry elaborate:
Because I am in support of it, and trust me, no, hatred of women has nothing to do with this. Keep in mind the people who use #gamergate are mostly the same people who donated to TFYC (I know because I've donated myself and talked to people on Twitter about it). Donating to a fund to get more women in the industry does not seem like the actions of a misogynist.

Don't you know?
It's the same as 'Many of my friends are black' smokescreen. And racists donating to charity.

The lengths anonymous posters on an anonymous imageboard have gone to hide their tracks and clear their 'name' is indicative of their nature.
 

Verr

Banned
Don't you know?
It's the same as 'Many of my friends are black' smokescreen. And racists donating to charity.

Don't bring up irrelevant issues please. Race has nothing to do with this.

You can say what you want, but the #gamergate guys actually support women in the video game industry. What has, say, Zoe Quinn done for women in the industry? Or Anita Sarkeesian? Or whatever woman of the week you're putting on a pedestal now?
 

Marsyas

Banned
Do people actually believe this? I genuinely want to know.

I believe that a fair share of the outrage is fueled by weird animosities and resentments. Gender is, imho, a component of it; the high profile targets are mostly women.

I get the idea neither of you understand what it's about. Let someone who actually works in the industry eloborate.

What is this "real subject" we can't speak about without being accused of misogyny?
 

Verr

Banned
I believe that a fair share of the outrage is fueled by weird animosities and resentments. Gender is, imho, a component of it; the high profile targets are mostly women.

It's a far reach to spin this into being about hating women just because the high profile targets here are women (which I'm going to assume for the sake of your argument is true, it's hard to say).
 
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