This was mostly sarcastic. Sadly, people actually use these kind of arguments in this case.
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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
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This was mostly sarcastic. Sadly, people actually use these kind of arguments in this case.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Don't bring up irrelevant issues please. Race has nothing to do with this.
You can say what you want, but the #gamergate guys actually support women in the video game industry. What has, say, Zoe Quinn done for women in the industry? Or Anita Sarkeesian? Or whatever woman of the week you're putting on a pedestal now?
4chan supports women in order to spite other women and build PR. Did they lift a finger to use their mind-fucked groups and power to pressure EA to properly admonish the misogynistic players in Battlefield 3 that lead to women being banned from a tournament for their protection? Did you even know that they did such a ban?
Sorry if this is off topic, but what's the deal with the Aljazeera article she's talking about? Can anyone provide a link/explanation?Jenn Frank decides she may be done writing after games after gamergate set their sites on her:
https://storify.com/JJJJQQQQ/jenn-frank
I get the idea neither of you understand what it's about. Let someone who actually works in the industry eloborate.
Because I am in support of #gamergate, and trust me, no, hatred of women has nothing to do with this. Keep in mind the people who use the hastag are mostly the same people who donated to TFYC (I know this because I've donated myself and talked to plenty of people on Twitter about it). Donating to a fund to get more women in the industry does not seem like the actions of a misogynist.
I'm not trying to delegitimize everyone who is involved in the hashtag. Obviously there are people who are trying to affect change (maybe needed change) but the movement is rooted in the "5 Guys" bullshit being spread around by shitty YouTube videos and contextless imgur captures.
This was mostly sarcastic. Sadly, people actually use these kind of arguments in this case.
I kinda got that idea, but I'm dumb and went on with my argument anyway. Oh well. I still think it holds up.
4chan supports women in order to spite other women and build PR. Did they lift a finger to use their mind-fucked groups and power to pressure EA to properly admonish the misogynistic players in Battlefield 3 that lead to women being banned from a tournament for their protection? Did you even know that they did such a ban?
No, I didn't, and considering I visit that place with immense dedication I get the impression they didn't either.
Also, stop generalizing this into a matter of spite. I donated because I like video games, the games they showed were cool and supporting women in the industry sounds like a just cause. Every person I've spoken with on this, on 4chan or Twitter or elsewhere, said the same thing.
That does not mean that there was absolutely no-one who donated purely out of spite, but to say that the entirety of 4chan did is just plain wrong.
I kinda got that idea, but I'm dumb and went on with my argument anyway. Oh well. I still think it holds up.
No, I didn't, and considering I visit that place with immense dedication I get the impression they didn't either.
Also, stop generalizing this into a matter of spite. I donated because I like video games, the games they showed were cool and supporting women in the industry sounds like a just cause. Every person I've spoken with on this, on 4chan or Twitter or elsewhere, said the same thing.
That does not mean that there was absolutely no-one who donated purely out of spite, but to say that the entirety of 4chan did is just plain wrong.
Agreed, as much as I loath 4chan and everything that's come out of it (I used to spend the majority of my time there, is that self-loathing?) it's not like there's a super-villain entrance exam you have to take in order to post there.
I get the idea neither of you understand what it's about. Let someone who actually works in the industry eloborate.
Because I am in support of #gamergate, and trust me, no, hatred of women has nothing to do with this. Keep in mind the people who use the hastag are mostly the same people who donated to TFYC (I know this because I've donated myself and talked to plenty of people on Twitter about it). Donating to a fund to get more women in the industry does not seem like the actions of a misogynist.
To you (and many others) perhaps, but to say that it has nothing whatsoever to do with it is pretty ridiculous and your refusal to acknowledge this hurts your argument. The whole fiasco has it's origins in the Zoe Quinn stuff and whether you agree or not people continue to post pretty hateful videos as their "evidence".
To you (and many others) perhaps, but to say that it has nothing whatsoever to do with it is pretty ridiculous and your refusal to acknowledge this hurts your argument. The whole fiasco has it's origins in the Zoe Quinn stuff and whether you agree or not people continue to post pretty hateful videos as their "evidence".
I don't see why it would hurt my argument. #Gamergate was started to raise awareness about corruption in the field of video game journalism, and from what I can see on Twitter right now that has not changed. I acknowledge there is harassment going on at the very least, but that's happening on both sides.
I also haven't seen any hateful videos about Zoe Quinn. Mind linking me some? Because I have seen videos that attacked her over her shitty actions, but nothing I would qualify as hate.
robovanburen
Member
I also haven't seen any hateful videos about Zoe Quinn. Mind linking me some? Because I have seen videos that attacked her over her shitty actions, but nothing I would qualify as hate.
Search "Zoe Quinn" on YouTube. See the ones with the thumbnails of Five Guys restaurants? Whitewashing this as a pure ethics movement is ridiculous.
Search "Zoe Quinn" on YouTube. See the ones with the thumbnails of Five Guys restaurants?.
Yes, I do. Apparently a joke is considered hate now? I think we got some very different definitions of hate.
Also, I'm not whitewashing this as a pure ethics movement. I acknowledged it's not perfect, didn't I?
robovanburen
Member
Yes, I do. Apparently a joke is considered hate now? I think we got some very different definitions of hate.
Also, I'm not whitewashing this as a pure ethics movement. I acknowledged it's not perfect, didn't I?
It might be a joke but it's a hateful one. I don't think Zoe Quinn would consider it very funny. It's shaming her for things that are none of our business.
Either Verr is just trolling or this kind of group think on the subject has me scared for women. The simple fact that he can not see and connect the two situations together and just writes off those videos as a "joke" is sad and scary.
I'm sorry. I can understand stupid "outrage" over "corruption" in fucking video game journalism, but this gamergate shit is not that. It is very much an attack on women by a group of misogynistic trolls that either A) are aware of it and just being shameful human beings or B) aren't aware of what they have gotten themselves into and need to stop and take a step back.
Utterly embarrassing.
I'm sorry. I can understand stupid "outrage" over "corruption" in fucking video game journalism, but this gamergate shit is not that. It is very much an attack on women by a group of misogynistic trolls that either A) are aware of it and just being shameful human beings or B) aren't aware of what they have gotten themselves into and need to stop and take a step back.
Utterly embarrassing.
I'm all for less clickbait and more disclosure. All this twitter harassment does is make those issues IMPOSSIBLE to discuss because even the biggest critic of someone like Anita's work would rather defend someone who makes sub par videos than the people harassing them online 24/7.
At this point I'm assuming most of those people are either A. Mentally disturbed, B Just bandwagon harassing while having no idea why, or C Intentionally being over the top because they want it to seem even worse or they find it hilarious.
At this point I'm assuming most of those people are either A. Mentally disturbed, B Just bandwagon harassing while having no idea why, or C Intentionally being over the top because they want it to seem even worse or they find it hilarious.
Don't bring up irrelevant issues please. Race has nothing to do with this.
You can say what you want, but the #gamergate guys actually support women in the video game industry. What has, say, Zoe Quinn done for women in the industry? Or Anita Sarkeesian? Or whatever woman of the week you're putting on a pedestal now?
Zoe Quinn did nothing goor OR bad to women in industry except being another example .... she did a lot to people with depression.
Anita Sarkeesian brought attention to the lack of diversity problem in games and overused cliches (pleonasm !) that focus on bad images of women. She also did lectures at lots of development studios.
Gamersgate started as a hate movement on Quinn, NOT on the journalists who did something wrong if the accusations are right (which they are not).
Besides the fact that, in an industry with very few women, gamersgate has an incredibly big list of female targets ....
It might be a joke but it's a hateful one. I don't think Zoe Quinn would consider it very funny. It's shaming her for things that are none of our business.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
I'm sorry. I can understand stupid "outrage" over "corruption" in fucking video game journalism, but this gamergate shit is not that. It is very much an attack on women by a group of misogynistic trolls that either A) are aware of it and just being shameful human beings or B) aren't aware of what they have gotten themselves into and need to stop and take a step back.
I'm glad you brought that up, because let me give you an example.
All feminists are spiteful man-haters just because one vocal, minor percentage of all feminists are. Oh wait, why doesn't that hold up? Because it's a generalization. Generalizations are not arguments, they're fallacies.
Gamersgate started as a hate movement on Quinn
in an industry with very few women
Both of these statements are wrong, by the way.
It's a far reach to spin this into being about hating women just because the high profile targets here are women (which I'm going to assume for the sake of your argument is true, it's hard to say).
Imho, there are two main indicators that point towards misogynist roots the movement.
All the YouTube videos and imgur conspiracy collages that were posted here on GAF have an explicit connection to feminism and the feminist movement. The journalists who are accused of "corruption" all have a history of publicly talking about sexism and of taking a stand against it (a lot of them are women.) The specific articles that are singled out for journalistic malpractice deal with topics associated with sexism (like harassment or "gamer culture".)
This movement completely fails to disassociate itself from sexism. If they wanted to talk about ethical issues in games journalism, they could just do that. Yet the popular argument is often something like "this is about corruption, not gender politics." They barely speak about what it is, but just about what it isn't (sexism).
One a more personal note: It's a good thing that you contributed to the TFYC indiegogo campaign. Thank you for that. You've done good and helped people to create games.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
Uhhhhh
No it really isn't.
robovanburen
Member
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
There's a difference between saying "she had a personal relationship with a journalist and he should have disclosed it" and saying "LOL FIVE GUYS BURGERS AND FRIES!". If you can't tell that difference, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
Uhhhhh
No it really isn't.
Oh? Then why did journalists, say, write about the game creator who was accused of rape? Is that our business? Was it our business when Centrepoint's CEO got fired for kicking a dog?
There's a difference between saying "she had a personal relationship with a journalist and he should have disclosed it" and saying "LOL FIVE GUYS BURGERS AND FRIES!". If you can't tell that difference, I'm not sure what else to tell you.
I've not watched any videos so far that only consisted of "LOL FIVE GUYS", so that might be my fault.
Zoe Quinn did nothing goor OR bad to women in industry except being another example .... she did a lot to people with depression.
Anita Sarkeesian brought attention to the lack of diversity problem in games and overused cliches (pleonasm !) that focus on bad images of women. She also did lectures at lots of development studios.
I would argue Zoe did do very bad to women in the industry; now the stereotype of women sleeping around to get into the industry is only going to become more prevalent.
Also, Anita talks a lot, but has she actually changed something for the video game industry? Not a single thing comes to mind.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
Right, apart from the fact this didn't happen. There was no evidence that the two were romantically involved at the time of his writing those articles (that I'm aware of). The original allegations surround unsubstantiated accusations from her ex and also spread the false accusation that Nathan had written a review of Depression Quest. If you can see the deeply problematic roots of this then I don't know what to say. Even subsequent videos about other women in the industry have basically had their origins in "she's flirting on twitter, they must be having sex, this is corruption".
The GamersGate thing continues to just be a hashtag used for hate speech and the piling on effect of it being perceived as a space for airing grievances doesn't nullify its past use as being started for the purpose of hate speech. If people want to talk about their issues with the game industry, if they are doing it using that tag, then it's associated with hate speech, whether you want it to be or not.
There was no evidence that the two were romantically involved at the time of his writing those articles (that I'm aware of).
Did I say otherwise?
They were close enough to go on a trip to Vegas and make out one week before he released an article that mentioned her, and she admitted they slept together at one point. At the very least, he could've put the words "me and Zoe are friends by the way" in there somewhere.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
Nope, that's not true at all. A movie critic won't be fired for having a sexual relationship with a small indie director when he hasn't written anything about that person (Grayson including her game among 50 games that had been greenlit doesn't count, that's just objective information). It just doesn't work like that, and you're speaking out of ignorance if you do believe that that's how this works. We have no reason to believe that Grayson wouldn't have recused himself if he actually got assigned a story about Quinn.
Did I say otherwise?
They were close enough to go on a trip to Vegas and make out one week before he released an article that mentioned her, and she admitted they slept together at one point. At the very least, he could've put the words "me and Zoe are friends by the way" in there somewhere.
I like how you attack someone as "have you ever worked in a professional environment"? Have you? because if you did you would know that what you think this "corrupt" act done was is in fact not corruption at all.
It's a weird juvenile way of thinking that because these people had sex they are beholden to one another. These are two people with their own careers and lives that were attracted to each other, but honestly, that really shouldn't matter to you. There was no corruption involved and these people do not owe you an explanation.
We have no reason to believe that Grayson wouldn't have recused himself if he actually got assigned a story about Quinn.
No? The article he wrote on the failed Game Jam Zoe was in doesn't count? He then proceeded to quote her in that article on how she wanted to start her own game jam, Rebel Jam, which he linked to in his article. Not even going into how shady Rebel Jam was, don't you think he could have at least mentioned it before people thought about donating how they were close?
These are two people with their own careers and lives that were attracted to each other, but honestly, that really shouldn't matter to you.
Not even when one of them is a journalist recommending others to donate to the person he is close to? Isn't there a term for that, oh yeah, violation of your code of ethics.
No? The article he wrote on the failed GameJam Zoe was in doesn't count? He then proceeded to quote her in that article on how she wanted to start her own gamejam, which he linked to in his article. Not even going into how shady Rebel Jam was, don't you think he could have at least mentioned it before people thought about donating how they were close?
No I don't because it's not relevant. If he wrote a review it would've been, but that? No. He wrote a big article about a failed gamejam and quoted her talking about a gamejam she wanted to start, who fucking cares.
I would argue Zoe did do very bad to women in the industry; now the stereotype of women sleeping around to get into the industry is only going to become more prevalent.
Also, Anita talks a lot, but has she actually changed something for the video game industry? Not a single thing comes to mind.
Whatever care about the sexual life of people in the industry are the problem, not who sleep.
She didn't got the attention by sleeping, she got the attention because people bullied her from the start..
Anita started the discussion. If talking to a big audience meant nothing than companies are wasting money on paying millions to advertise during the superbowl.
No I don't because it's not relevant. If he wrote a review it would've been, but that? No. He wrote a big article about a failed gamejam and quoted her talking about a gamejam she wanted to start, who fucking cares.
And put a link to her GameJam in the article telling people to donate.
I don't care what you personally think of that, the fact is that in any other field he would've gotten fired over pulling something like that.
She didn't got the attention by sleeping, she got the attention because people bullied her from the start...
No, this is a lie. She was never "harassed" by Wizardchan like she claims she was. Here, I even have a link prepared for you.
No? The article he wrote on the failed GameJam Zoe was in doesn't count? He then proceeded to quote her in that article on how she wanted to start her own gamejam, which he linked to in his article. Not even going into how shady Rebel Jam was, don't you think he could have at least mentioned it before people thought about donating how they were close?
Not even when one of them is a journalist recommending others to donate to the person he is close to?
Not even when one of them is a journalist recommending others to donate to the person he is close to.
You say it as if they were giving her money to live. The money was to go to fund a gamejam that would encourage video game making. It's funny because people now point at that one article Robert wrote as a sign of corruption. As if Robert Florence has that kind of power anyway.
You seriously have no idea what you're talking about, man.
TheHollowNight
Member
Oh? Then why did journalists, say, write about the game creator who was accused of rape? Is that our business? Was it our business when Centrepoint's CEO got fired for kicking a dog?
Are you seriously suggesting that rape accusations or even animal abuse are in the same ballpark as someones' personal romantic relationships that having nothing to do with the public?
Also, Anita talks a lot, but has she actually changed something for the video game industry? Not a single thing comes to mind.
Neil Druckmann cites Anita's work as a direct influence for writing strong female characters in TLOU.
Not even when one of them is a journalist recommending others to donate to the person he is close to.
I hope you aren't thinking of becoming a journalist, then, because if you think you could pull this in any other field but video game "journalism" then you're going to get a very blunt wake-up call.
Are you seriously suggesting that rape accusations or even animal abuse are in the same ballpark as someones' personal romantic relationships
Why the hell not? Can you tell me why either of those would matter to the public, but a journalist financially supporting and sleeping with a client is not?
Neil Druckmann cites Anita's work as a direct influence for writing strong female characters in TLOU.
The game with writing that was way overblown for what it was was inspired by Anita. Should have seen that one coming.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
I'm glad you brought that up, because let me give you an example.
All feminists are spiteful man-haters just because one vocal, minor percentage of all feminists are. Oh wait, why doesn't that hold up? Because it's a generalization. Generalizations are not arguments, they're fallacies.
Both of these statements are wrong, by the way.
You are wrong. It's not your business, or anyone's business who Zoe slept with.
Notice how Verr started off by saying this wasn't an attack on women and about corruption, but all of his arguments hinge on Zoe Quinn sleeping with people and nothing really to do with corruption at all.
He even went so far as to say that Zoe Quinn has hurt women by sleeping around. As if someones sexual has to impact their creative output or contribution to the entertainment/artistic collective. Tell that to all the actors, musicians, artists that sleep with multiple people, probably many times journalists, on a daily basis.
He even went so far as to say that Zoe Quinn has hurt women by sleeping around. As if someones sexual has to impact their creative output or contribution to the entertainment/artistic collective. Tell that to all the actors, musicians, artists that sleep with multiple people, probably many times journalists, on a daily basis.
No, this is a lie. She was never "harassed" by Wizardchan like she claims she was. Here, I even have a link prepared for you.
Ok, lets say that everything there is true.
She STILL did not received attention because she slept with anyone, she received attention because of the PERCEIVED bullying she got.
Notice how Verr started off by saying this wasn't an attack on women and about corruption, but all of his arguments hinge on Zoe Quinn sleeping with people and nothing really to do about corruption at all.
That's what people keep turning it into, yes. If you want to argue about corruption instead go right ahead, I'll be happy to debate about it with you.
He even went so far as to say that Zoe Quinn has women by sleeping around.
wut
You are wrong. It's not your business, or anyone's business who Zoe slept with.
I can do very little with a post like this. You don't even argue with me, even though I have prepared arguments for you so you can argue back. Might as well said COWS GO MOO, at least that would've kept me entertained.
TheHollowNight
Member
Why the hell not? Can you tell me why either of those would matter to the public, but a journalist financially supporting and sleeping with a client is not?
The game with writing that was way overblown for what it was was inspired by Anita. Should have seen that one coming.
Yeah. I know when I see utter garbage thrown in my face, and this is it right here.
Yeah. I know when I see utter garbage thrown in my face, and this is it right here.
These sound like the words of someone who is out of arguments.
Also, who consider Zoe "sleeping around" being a problem to ALL WOMEN
I don't even remember saying that.
I don't even remember saying that.
" the stereotype of women sleeping around to get into the industry is only going to become more prevalent."
And put a link to her GameJam in the article telling people to donate.
I don't care what you personally think of that, the fact is that in any other field he would've gotten fired over pulling something like that.
Are you talking about the article he wrote about Indie Statik before they got involved (according to Totilo)?
edit: Guess he won't be able to answer.
call_kotaku
Member
It's sort of disingenuous to assert that if every member of the press had full disclosure of the status of their relationships with Zoe Quinn then this wouldn't have been an issue, because it's not what this is about. The tricky thing about misogyny in this situation and really as a part of this culture is that nobody practicing it sees it as misogyny, they see it as exposing hypocrisy, or exposing fake "gamer gurls" that diminish their hobby, or asserting their right to do or like certain things, even though in practice it becomes a misogynistic agenda.
The thing that the people focused on Zoe Quinn want to prove is whether or not the critical success of her game and her prominence in the indie scene is a direct result of her choosing to sleep with the right people. However, when you look at it from a distance, even if this campaign to expose a "manipulative sociopath" is successful, it shouldn't logically have implications for gaming media since you can't prove it's a systemic problem because there are no other applicable examples, nor does it discredit her causes because it would just be ad hominem. Ultimately the mission is to prove a vocal "feminist" as a hypocrite, thereby indirectly discrediting her values and her agenda.
That's why for the militant MRAs that started this whole thing, this "press integrity" cause is just a smokescreen, because honestly who gives a fuck what score Polygon gave Gone Home. It only matters because it's relevant to a pre-existing agenda, and to deny that is dangerous. Yes, it's not fair to generalize people involved in an amorphous argument, but it's difficult to deny the underlying misogynistic motivations in light of the direction this thing was driven, just as it is difficult to deny the level of self-importance and contempt shown by game journalists in the resulting backlash.
The thing that the people focused on Zoe Quinn want to prove is whether or not the critical success of her game and her prominence in the indie scene is a direct result of her choosing to sleep with the right people. However, when you look at it from a distance, even if this campaign to expose a "manipulative sociopath" is successful, it shouldn't logically have implications for gaming media since you can't prove it's a systemic problem because there are no other applicable examples, nor does it discredit her causes because it would just be ad hominem. Ultimately the mission is to prove a vocal "feminist" as a hypocrite, thereby indirectly discrediting her values and her agenda.
That's why for the militant MRAs that started this whole thing, this "press integrity" cause is just a smokescreen, because honestly who gives a fuck what score Polygon gave Gone Home. It only matters because it's relevant to a pre-existing agenda, and to deny that is dangerous. Yes, it's not fair to generalize people involved in an amorphous argument, but it's difficult to deny the underlying misogynistic motivations in light of the direction this thing was driven, just as it is difficult to deny the level of self-importance and contempt shown by game journalists in the resulting backlash.
TheHollowNight
Member
These sound like the words of someone who is out of arguments.
No, these are words of someone who is quite frankly tired of the utter bullshit you actually delude yourself into believing. I've had these arguments for the past three weeks. Nothing of anything I have seen has honestly held any weight for the great and heroic cause of advocating transparency and integrity in the industry.
It's just a garbled message of finger-pointing, conspiracy-laden trash, thinly disguising a reason to attack a select few. Any real message has been lost in the kind of crap you choose to focus on and take issue over.
Edit: Banned. I am genuinely livid today. URRGGH.
Have you never worked in any kind of professional environment? If you sleep with your client, your business relationship ends right there. Take Nathan Grayson for example, who slept with and financially supported Zoe. In any other field, he would've been fired.
So yes, it is our business.
It isn't our business because it's been proven demonstrably false that Quinn's game gained any notoriety because of her relationship with Nathan. People fuck and most times they fuck because they like fucking each other. There's no need to look any further and the matter should be dropped FOREVER.
But it won't be because some people hate the fact that Zoe Quinn has influence. Those people are sad.
I'm glad you brought that up, because let me give you an example.
All feminists are spiteful man-haters just because one vocal, minor percentage of all feminists are. Oh wait, why doesn't that hold up? Because it's a generalization. Generalizations are not arguments, they're fallacies.
Generalizations are awful and I hate seeing them because it always muddies the water. The fact is that we as gamers have been burdened with a disproportionate amount of nasty people who have nasty thoughts. This is mostly a media driven stereotype that's become a self-fulfilling prophesy we're complicit in because, as Leigh Alexander put it, we helped create the vacuum that allowed these vile people in.
Both of these statements are wrong, by the way.
Where GamesGate started is a matter of debate... but we cannot deny that this latest round of idiocy began out of an attempt to assassinate Zoe Quinn's character. That's a fact.
The other statement, the fact that there's a relatively small amount of women working in the games industry... is also indisputable. You're incorrect.
Edit:
I see you were banned. I'll leave up my reply to you anyway in hopes that you read it and consider a more moderate approach to this in the future.
IGeneralizations are awful and I hate seeing them because it always muddies the water. The fact is that we as gamers have been burdened with a disproportionate amount of nasty people who have nasty thoughts. This is mostly a media driven stereotype that's become a self-fulfilling prophesy we're complicit in because, as Leigh Alexander put it, we helped create the vacuum that allowed these vile people in.
I disagree; we have the same proportion of nasty people as many other hobbies. Gaming attracts misogynists is a meme that needs to die.
We should not have the responsibility to police individuals that happen to share our interests. That responsibility lies with the providers of services and the justice system in extreme circumstances.
Sadly, the irony of using "ethics" as a smokescreen for unethical behavior is probably lost on these people.It's sort of disingenuous to assert that if every member of the press had full disclosure of the status of their relationships with Zoe Quinn then this wouldn't have been an issue, because it's not what this is about. The tricky thing about misogyny in this situation and really as a part of this culture is that nobody practicing it sees it as misogyny, they see it as exposing hypocrisy, or exposing fake "gamer gurls" that diminish their hobby, or asserting their right to do or like certain things, even though in practice it becomes a misogynistic agenda.
The thing that the people focused on Zoe Quinn want to prove is whether or not the critical success of her game and her prominence in the indie scene is a direct result of her choosing to sleep with the right people. However, when you look at it from a distance, even if this campaign to expose a "manipulative sociopath" is successful, it shouldn't logically have implications for gaming media since you can't prove it's a systemic problem because there are no other applicable examples, nor does it discredit her causes because it would just be ad hominem. Ultimately the mission is to prove a vocal "feminist" as a hypocrite, thereby indirectly discrediting her values and her agenda.
That's why for the militant MRAs that started this whole thing, this "press integrity" cause is just a smokescreen, because honestly who gives a fuck what score Polygon gave Gone Home. It only matters because it's relevant to a pre-existing agenda, and to deny that is dangerous. Yes, it's not fair to generalize people involved in an amorphous argument, but it's difficult to deny the underlying misogynistic motivations in light of the direction this thing was driven, just as it is difficult to deny the level of self-importance and contempt shown by game journalists in the resulting backlash.
So far this year Samantha Allen, Phill Fish, Jenn Frank and Mattie Brice have been hounded out of the industry. The amount of talent we're losing because some boys don't think girls should play with 'their' toys is heartbreaking.
- Meanwhile, people can't play most online games without the constant experience of racial, trans- & homophobic and sexist slurs. Especially if their identity is revealed by some sort of signifier.
- Meanwhile, people will receive death threats and bullying and harassment if they voice a simple request to be represented in a medium they love.
- Meanwhile, people will get piled on if they state that video games are for everyone and not the usual straight white gamer dude.
- Meanwhile, people can't have youtube videos or Twitch streams without being harassed or bullied or hit on because they have a vagina
- Meanwhile, people won't get hired because of nepotism and exclusion of critical voices. In the same vein, major outlets ban any form of alternative funding methods or relationship with these people.
- Meanwhile, people will be called "fake gamers" or their ingenuity is called into question because they're not a dude who plays video games.
- Meanwhile, industry events and conventions will have environments that come across as dudes-only territory with the enabling of groping and harassment and scantily clad strippers.
- Meanwhile, major figures and developers and publishers and outlets won't take action or put their foot where there mouth is despite being made aware of these injustices.
moondoggerr
Banned
No, these are words of someone who is quite frankly tired of the utter bullshit you actually delude yourself into believing. I've had these arguments for the past three weeks. Nothing of anything I have seen has honestly held any weight for the great and heroic cause of advocating transparency and integrity in the industry.
It's just a garbled message of finger-pointing, conspiracy-laden trash, thinly disguising a reason to attack a select few. Any real message has been lost in the kind of crap you choose to focus on and take issue over.
Edit: Banned. I am genuinely livid today. URRGGH.
I tip my cap to you. Truth.
I disagree; we have the same proportion of nasty people as many other hobbies. Gaming attracts misogynists is a meme that needs to die.
Which is the point of the original Alexander piece. It's a stereotype that we should leave behind. We both agree... but to do that we have to fill the vacuum of silence with positivity. Which brings me to your second paragraph.
We should not have the responsibility to police individuals that happen to share our interests. That responsibility lies with the providers of services and the justice system in extreme circumstances.
It most definitely is our responsibility to cultivate a positive and inclusive environment for all types of people. That's part of what NeoGAF is about. Why do you think it's so heavily moderated? Because of that heavy moderation we're able to have an actual discussion about corruption and feminism (albeit with some people it's like pulling teeth) without the shrill cry of assholes that are found pretty much everywhere else.
If we don't take the wheel then we end up with stupid shit like this Zoe Quinn 'controversy'. This isn't the first time the conversation around games has been punctuated with misogyny.
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