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How the Retron 5 made an honest man out of me.

D

Deadpool_X

Banned
So, I've been a big retro gamer my whole life. I love new systems and games, but they lack the charm of the 8 and 16 bit eras. Over the years, I have used the excuses of lack of localization and inability to read the Japanese language to justify the pirating of software for these systems in the form of ROMS. I mean, if Seiken Densetsu 3 never came out here, how could I possibly pay for it? It was a thinly veiled argument, and I'm not proud to have used it; but it doesn't change the fact that I did.

Flash forward to a month ago. I had purchased a Retron 5 a few months back, and had really loved the system. It makes my games look super clean, and I'd been thrilled to play my collection. About a month ago, though, Hyperkin updated the firmware to allow for .ips patching. Essentially, this is a way to patch a rom to allow for homebrew modifications/hacks/etc. Well, since the Retron 5 works by dumping a rom of the cartridge you insert, it makes it easy to apply said patches. The best part about it is, it has opened up my world to all the Japanese imports that we never received. I can(and have) purchase Japanese games, and apply translations to the roms, allowing me to finally be able to play games like Seiken Densetsu 3, Mother 3, Bahamut Lagoon, and Tales of Phantasia legally, and yet in English. Best of all, I can purchase Famicom and Super Famicom games that we DID receive here for super cheap, and be able to patch them to play as the English versions.

This new feature to the Retron 5 is easily the most underrated aspect of the system, and has finally made an honest man out of me.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
lazygecko said:
Isn't that technically still illegal? Since AFAIK that still counts as making a duplicate of the game.
Click to expand...

No, several countries have laws that allow you to legally backup your own software. It's downloading other people's rips under the guise of "backing up" that is illegal.

Again, this varies from country to country. 100% legal and protected in the USA, though.
 
D

Deadpool_X

Banned
Tambini said:
Weren't they accused of stealing emulator code? That aint so honest!
Click to expand...

Reading into it, it looks like the code is free to use. The companies whose code they've used simply want acknowledgement that the code came from them. I don't believe they even want any money for the use of them. Believe me, I'm not excusing them, because they should've figured this out before ever launching a product that has any code belonging to someone else without their permission.

Infernal Monkey said:
I'm not sure it's the best idea to admit you used to pirate video games.
Click to expand...

That was long ago, in my youth. I am 100% legitimate and have been for many, many years.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Deadpool_X said:
Reading into it, it looks like the code is free to use. The companies whose code they've used simply want acknowledgement that the code came from them. I don't believe they even want any money for the use of them. Believe me, I'm not excusing them, because they should've figured this out before ever launching a product that has any code belonging to someone else without their permission.
Click to expand...

That is a severe simplification of the GPL. It's much more involved than simply not giving credit where it's due. A number of the technologies used in the retron5 are not permitted for use with commercial products.
 
F

FLUXCapacitor

Member
My buddy bought a Retron 5 a few months ago. The input lag made most games unplayable. Needless to say he took the system back. Probably better off emulating on a PC.
 
D

Deadpool_X

Banned
FLUXCapacitor said:
My buddy bought a Retron 5 a few months ago. The input lag made most games unplayable. Needless to say he took the system back. Probably better off emulating on a PC.
Click to expand...

Very strange. I have absolutely no input lag on mine at all. It works flawlessly with all of my games.

sixteen-bit said:
Did seiken densetsu 3 get way pricier in the past year or so?
Click to expand...

I picked up my copy on eBay for $12.99, including shipping. It was cart only, but I'm not a collector, so that didn't bother me.
 
L

Ludist210

Member
Krejlooc said:
If only honest men had made the retron 5.
Click to expand...
giphy.gif
 
S

Seik

Banned
Krejlooc said:
If only honest men had made the retron 5.
Click to expand...

Ouch...hahahah! :p

Well, I still prefer using my own ROMs on a PC with the Retrode+plug-ins, at least I'm not getting the insane delay and imperfections the Retron 5 was giving me on my HDTV. :/

Took the system back for a full refund, I learned my lesson about 'third-party' products like these.
 
D

Deadpool_X

Banned
sixteen-bit said:
How did you measure input lag? Just a personal assessment? Was the other poster's lag a result of their TV?
Click to expand...

Personal assessment. I never stopped playing these games. I know exactly how they behave on the original hardware, and there has been no difference whatsoever on the Retron 5 for me. Mega Man 2 is just as crisp as it has ever been, and I am pulling off combos in SSF2, MK3, and KI without missing a beat.

It is very possibly the tv, yes. Many tvs cause terrible input lag. I remember trying to play Pinball FX 2 on a buddy's Sharp LCD and the lag was absolutely garbage, causing the game to be unplayable.
 
S

superNESjoe

Member
I think it's worth pointing out that games for these old systems don't generally make the original developer money anymore, so in most cases it really doesn't matter if you pirate a ROM or purchase an original cart second-hand. That money isn't going to the developer, it's only going to the private owner of the cart you just bought. You aren't taking money away from a developer or publisher by pirating a ROM of, say, Adventure Island.

Where it is a bit of an issue is if you are pirating ROMs of games that are being sold today, digitally or otherwise, by the actual developer. Any popular Nintendo game would fit this example. Super Mario Bros. is still a game that is actively sold and distributed by Nintendo, so pirating a ROM of it is (arguably) taking money away from that company.

Not to condone ROMS or discourage physical cart ownership. I'm a collector myself and prefer to own copies of all my games and play them on original hardware. Just saying don't get hard on yourself for pirating games that aren't available for distribution anymore, you're literally hurting no one.
 
L

lazygecko

Member
superNESjoe said:
I think it's worth pointing out that games for these old systems don't generally make the original developer money anymore, so in most cases it really doesn't matter if you pirate a ROM or purchase an original cart second-hand. That money isn't going to the developer, it's only going to the private owner of the cart you just bought. You aren't taking money away from a developer or publisher by pirating a ROM of, say, Adventure Island.
Click to expand...

What boggles my mind is how Square-Enix has never even bothered with trying to re-release SD3 digitally in the west. Surely it wouldn't require a significant budget to make an official English localization and make it run on modern platform using some type of emulation solution. Then they could just market it as the lost classic SNES RPG from Square, and I'm sure they could make a nice little profit from it.

I mean, Sega managed to do it with Monster World IV and that one isn't nearly as popular as SD3.
 
T

Tain

Member
The Retron 5 unquestionably adds lag to the experience, but whether that lag will, when combined with your display's lag (which can be significant, especially with TVs) cross the line into being noticeable will differ from person-to-person.

I like having as little lag as possible, so I wouldn't really consider using a Framemeister let alone a Retron 5.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
lazygecko said:
What boggles my mind is how Square-Enix has never even bothered with trying to re-release SD3 digitally in the west. Surely it wouldn't require a significant budget to make an official English localization and make it run on modern platform using some type of emulation solution. Then they could just market it as the lost classic SNES RPG from Square, and I'm sure they could make a nice little profit from it.

I mean, Sega managed to do it with Monster World IV and that one isn't nearly as popular as SD3.
Click to expand...

There is evidence to suggest that the MWIV translation is actually a (recently) completed translation that began in 1994, similar to how the english version of Wonderboy in Monster Land in the complete collection is actually an unreleased translation from the 80's. For example: the debug mode code works in the english translation of MWIV despite needing to be reworked thanks to the translation itself.
 
K

khaaan

Member
How is the Retron 5 overall? I thought about grabbing one of the older models but people had some negative points (can't remember what they are now) which deterred me.

Krejlooc said:
No, several countries have laws that allow you to legally backup your own software. It's downloading other people's rips under the guise of "backing up" that is illegal.

Again, this varies from country to country. 100% legal and protected in the USA, though.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? I could have sworn that it was only legal if the media did not have any copy protection in place.
 
L

Ludist210

Member
lazygecko said:
What boggles my mind is how Square-Enix has never even bothered with trying to re-release SD3 digitally in the west. Surely it wouldn't require a significant budget to make an official English localization and make it run on modern platform using some type of emulation solution. Then they could just market it as the lost classic SNES RPG from Square, and I'm sure they could make a nice little profit from it.

I mean, Sega managed to do it with Monster World IV and that one isn't nearly as popular as SD3.
Click to expand...
It depends on how text-heavy it is. RPGs tend to be beasts to translate, though games like Animal Crossing tend to be the worst to handle.

I wish Square Enix would finish it off and release it digitally (preferred on Wii U Virtual Console, but just get it out there). I'd even pay a premium to play it.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
khaaan said:
Are you sure? I could have sworn that it was only legal if the media did not have any copy protection in place.
Click to expand...

http://theesa.com/policy/antipiracy_faq.asp#3

U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes. However, the right to make backup copies of computer programs for archival purposes, as embodied in 17 U.S.C. Section 117(2), does not in any way authorize the owner of a copy of a video or computer game to post or download a copy of that game to or from the Internet or make such copy available to other people for their use. Section 117(2) only gives the owner of the copy a right to make an archival copy of the actual copy that he/she legally possesses, not to make a copy of the ROM that someone else legally possesses, nor to post an archival copy of his/her original copy for distribution. The law clearly does NOT provide any right to sell "backup" copies. In fact, Section 117 is quite explicit in stating that any archival copy prepared under Section 117(2) can only be transferred to another person if, and only if: A) The original copy is also transferred, and only with the authorization of the copyright owner, and B) The transfer is part of the sale of all rights in the program.
Click to expand...

http://old.cni.org/docs/infopols/Software.Publishers.Assoc.html

Because Congress did not envision the growth of this sub- industry of code breakers, they are not mentioned in the Copyright Act. There is no distinction in the law between copy protected and unprotected software. The duplication of either is a violation of the Copyright Act.
Click to expand...
 
P

Peltz

Member
Tain said:
The Retron 5 unquestionably adds lag to the experience, but whether that lag will, when combined with your display's lag (which can be significant, especially with TVs) cross the line into being noticeable will differ from person-to-person.

I like having as little lag as possible, so I wouldn't really consider using a Framemeister let alone a Retron 5.
Click to expand...

Are you a CRT man? I would think that the XRGB would cut some frames of lag even if it also adds one or two frames in by scaling/deinterlacing faster than most HDTVs.
 
Meesh

Meesh

Member
My mind is literally blown right now, had no idea the Retron 5 did ips patching...looks like I might be jumping on the Retron bandwagon too!
...and I was comfortably on the fence for so long too.
 
J

jblank83

Member
I'm all for buying games and supporting developers, but no one who worked on or even published those old NES/SNES era games is making money from cartridge purchases, unless you buy them on a Virtual Console style modern console service.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Automatic IPS patching is really cool sounding. I would totally use a lot more hacks if I could have it done automatically.

For instance, there is this new Zelda 1 NES hack called Legend of Link that makes the game more like Links Awakening. It looks awesome...

http://youtu.be/10vrWMTduRE

Deadpool_X said:
Reading into it, it looks like the code is free to use. The companies whose code they've used simply want acknowledgement that the code came from them. I don't believe they even want any money for the use of them. Believe me, I'm not excusing them, because they should've figured this out before ever launching a product that has any code belonging to someone else without their permission.
Click to expand...

The developers of the code prefer that the code isn't used commercially, but the license does actually allow for that. I think it expressly permits permits commercial use, actually.

What the license DOES require, though, which the Retron developers didn't follow, is:

- for any modified source code to be released (meaning that any modifications or additions to the original source code must be made public under the same license)
- for anyone to be able to run their own custom built source code on their personal Retron device (think: custom Android roms installed on an Android phone)

And that's not to mention the unauthorized use of licensed fonts.
 
T

Tain

Member
Peltz said:
Are you a CRT man? I would think that the XRGB would cut some frames of lag even if it also adds one or two frames in by scaling/deinterlacing faster than most HDTVs.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mostly use a CRT. There's no doubt that dedicated upscalers are the way to go when using an HDTV. If I emulate I'm usually using gsync.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Why would you do that? said:
The developers of the code prefer that the code isn't used commercially, but the license does actually allow for that. I think it expressly permits permits commercial use, actually.

What the license DOES require, though, which the Retron developers didn't follow, is:

- for any modified source code to be released (meaning that any modifications or additions to the original source code must be made public under the same license)
- for anyone to be able to run their own custom built source code on their personal Retron device (think: custom Android roms installed on an Android phone)

And that's not to mention the unauthorized use of licensed fonts.
Click to expand...

There are several GPL models, like AGPL, that explicitly prohibits commercial use. Retroarch actually details the violations and points out which ones were not licensed for any commercial use:

http://www.libretro.com/index.php/retroarch-license-violations/

Genesis Plus GX
1. It uses the open-source emulator ‘Genesis Plus GX’ by author Eke-Eke for its Sega Genesis/Mega Drive module (https://github.com/ekeeke/Genesis-Plus-GX). This core has been licensed under a non-commercial license. It can therefore not be sold as, or part of, a commercial product.
Click to expand...

SNES9x Next

2. It uses the open-source emulator ‘SNES9x Next’, which is itself a derivative of SNES9x (https://github.com/libretro/snes9x-next). I (Squarepusher) personally made this version of SNES9x. It has a few differences compared to normal SNES9x. It has SuperFX overclocking code and it has certain game speed hacks that make games run faster on slower hardware. This comes at the expense of some graphics inaccuracies though.

We could tell it was the SNES9x Next core because the exact same strings for variables to do with the speed hacks and the SuperFX overclock code popped up in their SNES core.

SNES9x is licensed under a non-commercial license. Like Genesis Plus GX, it can therefore not be a part of a commercial product.
Click to expand...
 
S

sörine

Banned
Why would you do that? said:
The developers of the code prefer that the code isn't used commercially, but the license does actually allow for that. I think it expressly permits permits commercial use, actually.

What the license DOES require, though, which the Retron developers didn't follow, is:

- for any modified source code to be released (meaning that any modifications or additions to the original source code must be made public under the same license)
- for anyone to be able to run their own custom built source code on their personal Retron device (think: custom Android roms installed on an Android phone)

And that's not to mention the unauthorized use of licensed fonts.
Click to expand...
The licenses of the SNES and Genesis emulators specifically don't permit commercial use at all. Different cores fall under different licenses, some if which even conflict with each other for commercialization. Hyperkin hasn't actually met the minimum standard for any of the licenses it's claiming though. And they're only now acknowledging the licenses at all because they were exposed by the Retroarch team. Previously they'd claimed all the code was internally developed.

Also, Hyperkin's still claiming they aren't using any of Retroarch's frontend code, just the emulator cores, but that doesn't seem to be true either.
 
W

Wereroku

Member
I will have to update this and find the Breath of Fire 1&2 translation patches. Should help with some of the mangled translations.
 
K

Krejlooc

Banned
Mr-Joker said:
Whoa whoa, so this means, I can put my legit copy of Mother 3 into the Retron 5 and it apply the English translation patch and then play that in my GBA SP with the patch applied?
Click to expand...

No, it flashes the dump of the game on the retron 5, not the cart itself.
 
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